Okay.. let's think for a minute.. WHY does it take PD so long to create a GT game?

[JAGUAR1977]

Blimey were the talent behind GTR2 and GTL, RACE07/PRO is produced by Simbins own team, and reviews have been underwhelming.

Blimey's Ferrari title is the one I'm looking forward too, hopefully on PS3.

 

[magburner]

...or you find yourself pushing the F430 through Suzuka, just to smile at glory of that engine and the balance of that chassis...

I wouldn't say it was that balanced, why can't I adjust the front suspension like I can with the other cars? It does sound good though.

 

[unv412]

I think PD make the cars the stars of the show.Which is good only if they can back it up with the immersion factor.Forza 2 had a little bit of it (just missing the g25 wheel) and was about 75 % there graphics wise. But graphics are a bit lost to me now I race incar view in Prologe as all I see is a dash and smallish cars through the screen (used to play EPR/FM2 chase cam only).2010 is a bit of a stretch though!

 

[PeterJB]

See.. im reading this interview again with Yamauchi (bless him) and the line where he says that GT5 could be out in 2010.
We all hope that wont happen, and we all hope it will be out in 2009 right? But we all know deep in our heart that it wont be out soon, and looking at the pace of how fast things are getting updated at the moment, i think we'll see the next "fall" update with damage in 2009, and GT5 in 2010 if not 2011.

Now before i go back into whine mode again , i would like to say that what i have seen so far is just amazing! car models, the tracks, the replays offcourse, the in car view, sounds are great, it's smooth, etc.
So kudos to PD for that!

Now the big question.. WHY do they take forever to make on GT game?
Is it the development kit for the PS3? is it because they are too strict and too anal about their games? small team?

See, i look around and see race games popping up within a year's development cycle.

Example: GRID... i know, not full sim and stuff like that, but it does have great graphics, a great damage model, and a day and night cycle (le mans races) plus great online racing.
and they developed that game close to a year of developing.
Why is it then that it takes PD sooo long to get online right? to get damage patched in a year after they released GT5P? there is no day and night cycle yet, and we can only dream of dynamic weather effects!
I can see the game coming out in 2010 without a day and night cycle and without weather effects... just like how GT4 came without online racing.

Prologue is great! but let's face it, after the challenges it's bone dry...
No weather, no night racing, no endurance, no damage, no fuel loss, no tyre wear, online is not so good yet, no pitstops, etc.

Again.. dont get me wrong, i am more then thankfull that PD creates games like GT, but i wonder why it takes them roughly taken about 4 years of development time for one game?

Small number of workers
Flying to locations to take pictures for reference
The same thing with cars
Recording car sounds
Getting permission to use the songs
Putting it all together
Testing
Making enough copies for release.

 

[Ardius]

Small number of workers
Flying to locations to take pictures for reference
The same thing with cars
Recording car sounds
Getting permission to use the songs
Putting it all together
Testing
Making enough copies for release.

....continued:
Getting permission to use cars
Getting permission to use tracks
Modelling the interiors and exteriors of the cars
Programming game physics
Programming everything
Sorting out the online, observing and testing
Helping build new supercars (see: GT-R)
Making sure the game is super-high quality

The thing that takes the most time in games development is primarily modelling and all the associated things that go with it - rigging, animation, physics, lighting, etc. The more quality you want in graphics and the bigger the quantity of cars, tracks, etc, the more the time scale is multiplied.
Hence why most games these days use the same greys and browns with super shiny surfaces and leave it at that, because it saves a huge amount of time and it seems people dont really care that much about graphics anyway...especially if people are hailing Gears of War and Halo 3 as great pieces of graphical art.

The other thing that takes up huge amounts of time is testing which contributes the most to the quality of a game. So I have no doubt PD do a huge amount of testing, clearly displayed by the very thing we are playing - Prologue, a test bed for the online mode and various other functions.

See.. im reading this interview again with Yamauchi (bless him) and the line where he says that GT5 could be out in 2010.
We all hope that wont happen, and we all hope it will be out in 2009 right? But we all know deep in our heart that it wont be out soon, and looking at the pace of how fast things are getting updated at the moment, i think we'll see the next "fall" update with damage in 2009, and GT5 in 2010 if not 2011.

Now before i go back into whine mode again , i would like to say that what i have seen so far is just amazing! car models, the tracks, the replays offcourse, the in car view, sounds are great, it's smooth, etc.
So kudos to PD for that!

Now the big question.. WHY do they take forever to make on GT game?
Is it the development kit for the PS3? is it because they are too strict and too anal about their games? small team?

See, i look around and see race games popping up within a year's development cycle.

Example: GRID... i know, not full sim and stuff like that, but it does have great graphics, a great damage model, and a day and night cycle (le mans races) plus great online racing.
and they developed that game close to a year of developing.
Why is it then that it takes PD sooo long to get online right? to get damage patched in a year after they released GT5P? there is no day and night cycle yet, and we can only dream of dynamic weather effects!
I can see the game coming out in 2010 without a day and night cycle and without weather effects... just like how GT4 came without online racing.

Prologue is great! but let's face it, after the challenges it's bone dry...
No weather, no night racing, no endurance, no damage, no fuel loss, no tyre wear, online is not so good yet, no pitstops, etc.

Again.. dont get me wrong, i am more then thankfull that PD creates games like GT, but i wonder why it takes them roughly taken about 4 years of development time for one game?

Yet again someone has clearly forgotten that Prologue is not a full game and was never advertised as such. I never expected GT5 to be out in 2009 and I fully expect to see it in 2011 at the earliest. For now, PD will continue testing and developing Prologue (as they have said) and will leave development of GT5 for a while. I believe its also been mentoned that Prologue will eventually become GT5 through updates anyway?

See, i look around and see race games popping up within a year's development cycle.

Ok, lets reverse the question, how many of those games are anywhere near as good as Gran Turismo? (and i am not speaking about Prologue, but in general). Compare GT4 to say...Race Driver 3?
Now, by all means, play the other games while you are waiting for GT5, there is nothing wrong with them. But when you cant see the difference between a high quality game that has had a lot of time spent on it and a mediocre quality game which hasnt, I think you're best off playing those games.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Ok, lets reverse the question, how many of those games are anywhere near as good as Gran Turismo?

Exactly, some good stuff will popup for consoles, but the whole package GT5 will deliver is (even in Prologue) way better. Take Race Pro for the X360 for example. While its physics simulation will be top notch (created by Simbin, the creators of the excellent simulators Race 07 and GTR2), the game looks like poo. It's not just about the simulation, or the graphics, it's about the complete package (including online, modifications, etc. etc.). And that's where GT5 will shine (and already does IMO). And the good thing is that GT5 will raise the bar for other games to come, so it will also affect the overall quality of other race games.

 

[Patrik]

Do any of you remember the video of the oval they released - I don't know what track it was though, because it didn't look like Daytona Speedway? In that video, I counted at least 20 cars on the track, and the pits, well oh my! The level of detail was astounding, what ever happened to that vision?

That was GT4 in high definition and with more cars on track, lots of people in the pit areas and so on. Now the cars are way more detailed so I guess that's why there are only 16 cars on track.

 

[Kryz11]

AMEN, but not quite right about the 360 bit, you should have seen halo 3 in 1080 it was AMAZING. And Gears of War, need I say more. Anyways spot on about everything else.

Luke

HALO3's graphics are not even that good.
Umm.. its UPSCALED! 360 sure it may produce 1080p but it is upscaled. PS3 has only few games that 1080p is TRUE.
Good example is GTA4 for both 360 and PS3, sure both can play at 1080p but for both is UPSCALED.

And Gears of war. IDK why people say it has the MOST amazing graphics, When Metal Gear 4 has a lot better. In Gears of war, not much stuff to blow up, change a clip, and the guy does not even EJECT THE CLIP in order to put a new one, in MGS4, when you change the CLIP, all of the GUN piecese work, He takes out the clip and puts a new one, even if you pay close attention, CALKING the gun works as well.
So I would dissagree with you.

 

[GTP_Concept]

Race Pro could be very good but it will be let down my M$ as they will only let people use the official M$ wheel which is 2x the price of a DFP and 10x worse than the DFP.

 

[Ardius]

HALO3's graphics are not even that good.
Umm.. its UPSCALED! 360 sure it may produce 1080p but it is upscaled. PS3 has only few games that 1080p is TRUE.
Good example is GTA4 for both 360 and PS3, sure both can play at 1080p but for both is UPSCALED.

And Gears of war. IDK why people say it has the MOST amazing graphics, When Metal Gear 4 has a lot better. In Gears of war, not much stuff to blow up, change a clip, and the guy does not even EJECT THE CLIP in order to put a new one, in MGS4, when you change the CLIP, all of the GUN piecese work, He takes out the clip and puts a new one, even if you pay close attention, CALKING the gun works as well.
So I would dissagree with you.

Although I agree halo 3 and gears of war are not the greatest example of good graphics, what you just mentioned with MGS4 is animation, nothing to do with graphics. But whatever, off topic.

 

[MustangSVT]

I personally won't be holding my breath for the full GT5. I bought Prologue hoping to be impressed and was less than impressed. The graphics are good and the physics are reasonably realistic, but that's it. Everything else that makes a racing game good is missing in action.

While everyone is waiting for proper online modes and the full GT5, I have been playing the following games online and have had much more enjoyment than the previous GT4 provided and the current Prologue:

- PGR2 for Xbox - since 2004, had decent online
- LFS for PC - since 2003, has great online, realistic physics
- Forza 1 for Xbox - since 2005, good career mode, decent online
- Forza 2 for 360 - since 2007, great online, good physics

And now most recently, iRacing.com. Since I've started playing iRacing a week ago, I've forgotten about the other games I was playing and will just be playing this one. It offers realistic physics, reasonable graphics, realistic tracks, realistic car interiors, and mature online environment. PD can take all the time in the world it wants because I won't be looking forward to GT5 at all. I've realized that there's no use in looking forward to their game anymore as I've been playing games that are far better than Gran Turismo for many years now and there's no need to get all excited over their latest offering especially when they're the slowest one in the business to offer features that other racing games have had for years.

 

[Kryz11]

Although I agree halo 3 and gears of war are not the greatest example of good graphics, what you just mentioned with MGS4 is animation, nothing to do with graphics. But whatever, off topic.

Animation is just as important. What would you rather have, A car made from nice and shiny GLASS? or a car made from Steel and metal that moves?

 

[NLxAROSA]

Animation is just as important. What would you rather have, A car made from nice and shiny GLASS? or a car made from Steel and metal that moves?

The latter. But I want the image to be complete. I want the detail of the cars to match the detail of the surroundings. In MGS4 and GT5P that sadly isn't the case. The detail of the environment is very low compared to the detail of the models. Though in GT5 it doesn't matter as much because you're racing past it at 250 kmh.

 

[Ardius]

Animation is just as important. What would you rather have, A car made from nice and shiny GLASS? or a car made from Steel and metal that moves?

That is irrelevant to my point, animation isnt part of the graphics. Graphics to me says the actual models and textures and effects, graphics are the still picture while animations are adding the elements needed to change a picture into a film (or game in this case).

Therefore, you cant give an example of good animations to back up your statement that MGS4's graphics are any better (even though they are) than Gears of War's.

Obviously I want good animations and obviously animations are very important, but I was just pointing out your example didnt fit with your statement.

 

[magburner]

That was GT4 in high definition and with more cars on track, lots of people in the pit areas and so on. Now the cars are way more detailed so I guess that's why there are only 16 cars on track.

Now that I didn't know... Thanks for the intel! 👍

 

[Kryz11]

The latter. But I want the image to be complete. I want the detail of the cars to match the detail of the surroundings. In MGS4 and GT5P that sadly isn't the case. The detail of the environment is very low compared to the detail of the models. Though in GT5 it doesn't matter as much because you're racing past it at 250 kmh.

I think detail of Tracks in GT5 is just astonishing! No other console racing game has as much detail. Since NFS has a lot of BITS and SHINES into the environment its based of FAKE locations so NFS games always look busy and filled up with a lot of stuff in environment. GT5 has real locations, so they have to place all the trees into the correct spot, all the tire walls, all the walls, all the posts, signs etc. There is no reason in GT5 to make better looking environments because they are almost spot on. So i think the Environments in GT5P are almost just spot on, that is another reason it is taking them long time to develop.

*edited the pointless arguments about animation and graphics and comparing one game to another*

 

[RedSuinit]

HALO3's graphics are not even that good.
Umm.. its UPSCALED! 360 sure it may produce 1080p but it is upscaled. PS3 has only few games that 1080p is TRUE.
Good example is GTA4 for both 360 and PS3, sure both can play at 1080p but for both is UPSCALED.

And Gears of war. IDK why people say it has the MOST amazing graphics, When Metal Gear 4 has a lot better. In Gears of war, not much stuff to blow up, change a clip, and the guy does not even EJECT THE CLIP in order to put a new one, in MGS4, when you change the CLIP, all of the GUN piecese work, He takes out the clip and puts a new one, even if you pay close attention, CALKING the gun works as well.
So I would dissagree with you.

Did you see those games on a 40" Full HD Television? Yeah those graphics sucked. Lost Odyssey looked SICK. Now, don't get me wrong I like the PS3 better than the 360, (because the 360 does have problems RROD poor souls) but some of you guys are sounding like fanboys more than giving unbiased opinion. Just saying. But then again we will have FFXIII! Can't wait for that one! That will really tell the tale, because it's coming on both consoles.

Luke

 

[Ardius]

Did you see those games on a 40" Full HD Television? Yeah those graphics sucked. Lost Odyssey looked SICK. Now, don't get me wrong I like the PS3 better than the 360, (because the 360 does have problems RROD poor souls) but some of you guys are sounding like fanboys more than giving unbiased opinion. Just saying. But then again we will have FFXIII! Can't wait for that one! That will really tell the tale, because it's coming on both consoles.

Luke

Please dont start a console flame war of doom. Thanks.

 

[RedOak]

I personally won't be holding my breath for the full GT5. I bought Prologue hoping to be impressed and was less than impressed. The graphics are good and the physics are reasonably realistic, but that's it. Everything else that makes a racing game good is missing in action.

While everyone is waiting for proper online modes and the full GT5, I have been playing the following games online and have had much more enjoyment than the previous GT4 provided and the current Prologue:

- PGR2 for Xbox - since 2004, had decent online
- LFS for PC - since 2003, has great online, realistic physics
- Forza 1 for Xbox - since 2005, good career mode, decent online
- Forza 2 for 360 - since 2007, great online, good physics

And now most recently, iRacing.com. Since I've started playing iRacing a week ago, I've forgotten about the other games I was playing and will just be playing this one. It offers realistic physics, reasonable graphics, realistic tracks, realistic car interiors, and mature online environment. PD can take all the time in the world it wants because I won't be looking forward to GT5 at all. I've realized that there's no use in looking forward to their game anymore as I've been playing games that are far better than Gran Turismo for many years now and there's no need to get all excited over their latest offering especially when they're the slowest one in the business to offer features that other racing games have had for years.

100% agree with you, apart for the iracing.com 'cause i have no experience with it. However, i find their "system" of rating very promising... finally someone wakes up and does a system that will allow good and clean racers to enjoy a game without the average idiot that ruins it for everyone, every times.

 

[craste]

iRacing.com


hhhmmm anyone else played this - it sounds very intresting!!!

 

[Kryz11]

iRacing.com


hhhmmm anyone else played this - it sounds very intresting!!!

Let's stick to why this game takes a while to develop, I think you are advertising.

 

[BrainGow=Bairn]

Okay.. lot's of replies allready, most positive and reasonable, cheers for that!

Now, reading this made me realise why im still a bit dissapointed in the development time cycle of PD and how GT5P turned out within the last few years of developing.

Check this out, E3 2005.. Gran Turismo Vision:

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=wOPO7swloAI

Holy poop right? the cars, the tracks, and those pitstops! All in all, it looks amazing.. GT5P is close to this, but not enough tracks and the pitstop.. god, i miss the pitstops.
Things like pitstop really make a simulation racing game for me.. and reading this thread im not the only one.

I'll repeat it once more:
Tyre wear, fuel loss, pitstops, damage, endurance races, day and night cycle, weather effects, all done by other games years ago and still not done by PD.. this is my main complaint/dissapointment.
Now i read some of you said that GT5P is just a teaser of what's to come and it's not complete and we should expect all of these things in GT5 in a few years.
I've dug this up from the interview posted on the first page.. i quote Yamauchi now:

This game, we've called it GT5 Prologue - but it's not really a teaser of things to come. This is the best we can provide at this point in time. It's just that we don't consider it up to par, in terms of volume and things like that, to be called a full game by itself - by our standards, not by other people's standards. That's one thing we want to make clear for people.

GT5P as it is.. is NOT a teaser, it is as far as they have gotten so far in their development cycle.. now looking at GT vision presented back in 2005, and seeing as how F1:CE, GRID and many other racing games have allready done damage, endurance, weather and the rest of the list, this is the entire reason for my dissapointment.

Maybe PD should set their priorities different? i LOVE each car in the game to death and they all look so damn beautifull, yes... nothing but praise for the fine folks at PD for creating such beautifull tracks, cars and replays.
However, that's all there is so far... it looks good, but it lacks depth in my opinion...

Am i the only one who would prefer the whole list of feautures mentioned above over great looking cars?

 

[NLxAROSA]

So i think the Environments in GT5P are almost just spot on, that is another reason it is taking them long time to develop.

True, the representation is very accurate. More so than any PC sim too, because these focus mainly on realistic physics, rather than detailed graphics.

But that's not what I meant by detail. By detail I mean detailed (hires) textures for the surroundings (just stop and look at some of the boards along the track), no cardboard people (I would rather have them gone than the way are now actually), etc. etc. If you see how much detail there is in the cars and how crisp they look, then why not for the rest of the scenery? It feels a bit out of place. Just stop and have a look around to see what I mean. I guess they made the cars too awesome. But again: you usually don't notice the scenery when racing past it. It's still way above anything else out there, so I guess I shouldn't complain. But seriously, the cardboard people have to go. 👎

Personally I think it has to do with frame rates and memory. Showing 1080p at 60FPS requires quite an amount of video memory, I don't think there is room for extra detailed textures. Besides that, the frame rates already show drops when there are many cars and lots of effects going on at the same time. I suspect they will add weather and possibly visual damage to the mix as well.

And so we are back on topic: I think a lot of time goes into optimization of this stuff.

 

[MustangSVT]

100% agree with you, apart for the iracing.com 'cause i have no experience with it. However, i find their "system" of rating very promising... finally someone wakes up and does a system that will allow good and clean racers to enjoy a game without the average idiot that ruins it for everyone, every times.

Yep it's a good system. I'm not saying it's the perfect game, every game has its flaws, but I like their whole ratings thing where you really have to try and drive well (including not bumping into other drivers, not driving off track, not losing control of car, not crashing etc.) in order to progress further into the game.

Now I'm not saying that iRacing is the end all be all of racing games. It might be, but I don't know. I am just trying to get across that I've realized (again) that all the features GT5 is promising I've already had for years with other racing games and really right now with so many good games out (also Race Pro coming out, that should be good online too), no need to look forward to GT5 really.

 

[Ardius]

GT5P as it is.. is NOT a teaser, it is as far as they have gotten so far in their development cycle..

How do you know that, do you work at PD?

Clearly, they have been working on other things other than Prologue before hand and which have mostly been scrapped. (GT HD, GT Vision, etc).

How can you expect all the things youve asked for when you keep ignoring what we are all repeating - almost all of the time theyve spent is on making the graphics drop dead gorgeous.

Of course it lacks depth, hence the word Prologue. You keep comparing GT to games with vastly inferior graphical detail and this is where a huge amount of development time is spent.

I dont know how else to put it.....are you even reading what I have posted?

 

[Wolfe]

Like others have said, PD spends boatloads of hours on details and little things...but they never step back and look at the whole picture. As a result, you get a great, polished little game with a detailed photography mode, picture-perfect car models, painstakingly-recreated tracks, and brief histories for each car and/or manufacturer. You also get half-baked physics, ear-gratingly generic sounds, convoluted menus, and several (repeatedly) broken promises of features the series should have had years ago. Kazunori was absolutely right when he said he isn't making a game, but a car encyclopedia.

For someone who likes looking at cars in action, the modern Gran Turismo game is perfect. I'd recommend it in a heartbeat to any would-be automotive photographer. However, as a driver, I personally just don't see the allure.

 

[BrainGow=Bairn]

How do you know that, do you work at PD?

Clearly, they have been working on other things other than Prologue before hand and which have mostly been scrapped. (GT HD, GT Vision, etc).

How can you expect all the things youve asked for when you keep ignoring what we are all repeating - almost all of the time theyve spent is on making the graphics drop dead gorgeous.

Of course it lacks depth, hence the word Prologue. You keep comparing GT to games with vastly inferior graphical detail and this is where a huge amount of development time is spent.

I dont know how else to put it.....are you even reading what I have posted?

I have been reading and i am sorry if i came off like i did not.

I do not work at PD no..however, i did qoute Yamauchi who clearly says that GT5P is not a teaser.. they are not further then that, in fact im betting they are struggling to get damage in, let alone weather effects, pitstops and the other things mentioned.

I ask you to read my last post once more please.. i state that im dissapointed, not by the fact that all they do is making the game drop dead gorgeous, but with the fact that they have not gotten features done that other games do have for years now...
If it's not in prologue it does not mean that they are saving it for the full game per se, i think it is because they cant get it done yet or simply have not even started on it yet.

 

[Ardius]

I have been reading and i am sorry if i came off like i did not.

I do not work at PD no..however, i did qoute Yamauchi who clearly says that GT5P is not a teaser.. they are not further then that, in fact im betting they are struggling to get damage in, let alone weather effects, pitstops and the other things mentioned.

I ask you to read my last post once more please.. i state that im dissapointed, not by the fact that all they do is making the game drop dead gorgeous, but with the fact that they have not gotten features done that other games do have for years now...
If it's not in prologue it does not mean that they are saving it for the full game per se, i think it is because they cant get it done yet or simply have not even started on it yet.

Yes I know why you are disappointed, but you question why PD have taken so long to make "so little" and I gave you an answer.
I'd like to ask where is the logic for comparing fully finished games to Prologue which is not a finished product in the slightest.

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

I'd go one further - I'd say there was more in prologue than in most fully finished games. I've spent more time playing GT5P than any other game in my collection.

eg:

Ratchet and Clank - finished in 3 days, never played again
Resistance Fall of Man - finished in 4 days, never played again (never went near online cos I'm an oldschool PC FPS player and the joystick controls do my head in)
F1ce - played it for about a week and got bored with it, now I play a couple of laps just before the real GP is on telly, so I have the track in my head
NFS - downloaded the demo, uninstalled within half an hour
Colin Mcrae Dirt - " "
Grid - " "
Burnout Paradise - " "


GT5P on the other hand I have played, since it came out, racing exclusively on Fuji and Suzuka and I still haven't had enough. Although I thought I might be getting sick of it just before the update. I'm just crossing my fingers that theres a decent crop of new tracks in the fall update. Private rooms will be great if we get them but I'll still be playing online regardless.

Damage, if it's included will be the death of public servers so, basically, what I'm saying is that only if they include damage and no private rooms that'll be the only thing that'll stop me playing.

 

[Chronos]

Am i the only one who would prefer the whole list of feautures mentioned above over great looking cars?

Theres' a whole host of games that offer this, why would you want Gran Turismo to do the same?

Anyway, GT5, when it comes, will do a lot if not all these plus amazing graphics etc.

"Tyre wear, fuel loss, pitstops, damage, endurance races, day and night cycle, weather effects"

GT3 had pit stops tyre wear, endurance races. Damage is coming, and I expect the rest will. But if want full blooded racing then Gran Turismo has to me been about car appreciation, driving not racing. PC sims offer even more race conditions. You can't have everything yet.

Everyone has posted why it takes so long, and the interviews I posted say the same things from the mouths of the makers.

PD are't going to hand everything over for £20 just when they've finished. We'll get some features to test, prologue will evolve.

Another video I watched the dev says graphics are their NO1 priority, 2nd was physics. They take pride and set very high standards and development has taken longer than expected due to the quality that is achievable.

I'm interested how the Art Morrison vette is going to get damage that looks on par to the actual model.