Okay.. let's think for a minute.. WHY does it take PD so long to create a GT game?

[FoolKiller]

It's made by SimBin, creators of GTR2 and Race07, two simulations that contain realism that GT5P (so far) can only dream of.

See above, It's made by SimBin, which should say enough. Definitely no arcade racer, and I think it sucks it's not coming for PS3, because it will most certainly give GT5P a run for its money where realism is concerned.

No, the name 'SimBin' should have. Creators of two of the greatest simulation games for any platform. True, they care less about sexy graphics, but they sure do make sure their games are realistic. 👍

And IMO you can't judge anything about the way the thing handles from a crappy youtube video.

I think you are putting a lot of faith in a development team that hasn't been limited by the constraints of a console before.

Plus, I rarely trust name recognition alone as a way to judge a title. If that were all it took then Atari games would be the end all be all of the gaming industry and something with the word Nintendo on the package would be 100% quality.

Just because it is a company with a good record on PC does not mean that they can pull off the same thing on a console. Just look at The Sims from PC to console.

Sure, being SimBin puts a lot of expectations on the game, but that doesn't mean the reality will match up.

Although I agree halo 3 and gears of war are not the greatest example of good graphics, what you just mentioned with MGS4 is animation, nothing to do with graphics. But whatever, off topic.

In my opinion, MGS4 on my SDTV looked far better than Halo 3 or Gears of War on my friend's HDTV. But MGS4 also had a much longer development time.

Wait, maybe that means something.

Of course, when I get MGS4 on an HDTV it could point out flaws to me that I can't see currently.

 

[Racer28]

I`m suspecting the reason it takes so much time now, is because of the way they model the cars. They are now doing it properly that they dont have to remodel for the future (think GT6 on PS4, the geometry is near perfect) ,and that they model the cars in modules; doors bumpers etc for the reason that they are bow doing damage..

 

[MustangSVT]

Like others have said, PD spends boatloads of hours on details and little things...but they never step back and look at the whole picture. As a result, you get a great, polished little game with a detailed photography mode, picture-perfect car models, painstakingly-recreated tracks, and brief histories for each car and/or manufacturer. You also get half-baked physics, ear-gratingly generic sounds, convoluted menus, and several (repeatedly) broken promises of features the series should have had years ago. Kazunori was absolutely right when he said he isn't making a game, but a car encyclopedia.

For someone who likes looking at cars in action, the modern Gran Turismo game is perfect. I'd recommend it in a heartbeat to any would-be automotive photographer. However, as a driver, I personally just don't see the allure.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I enjoy GT4 on ocassion from the perspective of looking at cars in action, test driving a couple of rare cars and such. However at the end of the day, there are several other racing games that I spend majority of my gaming time on and find much more exciting and entertaining.

 

[RedOak]

Like others have said, PD spends boatloads of hours on details and little things...but they never step back and look at the whole picture. As a result, you get a great, polished little game with a detailed photography mode, picture-perfect car models, painstakingly-recreated tracks, and brief histories for each car and/or manufacturer. You also get half-baked physics, ear-gratingly generic sounds, convoluted menus, and several (repeatedly) broken promises of features the series should have had years ago. Kazunori was absolutely right when he said he isn't making a game, but a car encyclopedia.

For someone who likes looking at cars in action, the modern Gran Turismo game is perfect. I'd recommend it in a heartbeat to any would-be automotive photographer. However, as a driver, I personally just don't see the allure.

Agree completely with this as well. That sums up GT5p right now...

 

[TeamStig]

I`m suspecting the reason it takes so much time now, is because of the way they model the cars. They are now doing it properly that they dont have to remodel for the future (think GT6 on PS4, the geometry is near perfect) ,and that they model the cars in modules; doors bumpers etc for the reason that they are bow doing damage..

Modelling the cars in several components rather than one big piece is a perfect example of the kind of work these guys are doing. Kaz has said that he wants every door, bumper, spoiler, etc. to take damage independently. In games like Forza, Grid, and F1 CE, we see parts of the exterior flying off, but the damage modelling still isn't quite up to par with what is planned for GT. This makes the challenge of doing something like damage much larger.

This is obviously good and bad: We would rather have it this way but it prolongs development. But when you think about it, EVERYTHING is like that in the world of GT. The team sets their goals so high that they are almost considered impossible to achieve (16 cars, with each having roughly 200,000 polygons, running at 60 fps, for example). The problem is that unless it is up to their lofty standards, it's not good enough. And if it's not good enough, it's not in GT. This is the reason we didn't see drag racing in GT2, or online in GT4. For sure they were working on it, but if they shoved it in half-finished they would not have been pleased with themselves.

On the other hand, they are ignoring many aspects of racing that make it so exciting, and are instead concentrating on the smaller things that are not as noticeable. As I'm sure many of you would, I would trade GT TV for weather and a day/night cycle. But for some reason, that isn't how PD operates, and that's a shame. You almost get the impression that they aren't listening to the people.

However, I don't think that GT is just eye candy. If it was, then you wouldn't have so many people claming that the physics are spot on. Remember, the name is GT5 Prologue. When the full game comes out, and it's up to PD's standards, then it should be more than good enough for those dissappointed in the series.

 

[RedOak]

However, I don't think that GT is just eye candy. If it was, then you wouldn't have so many people claming that the physics are spot on. Remember, the name is GT5 Prologue. When the full game comes out, and it's up to PD's standards, then it should be more than good enough for those dissappointed in the series.

Unfortunately, the same thing could be said about GT3.... and GT4...

GT TV and "prologues" are good way for PD to finance their pipedreams since they must run out of funds every times...

 

[Ardius]

In my opinion, MGS4 on my SDTV looked far better than Halo 3 or Gears of War on my friend's HDTV. But MGS4 also had a much longer development time.

Wait, maybe that means something.

Of course, when I get MGS4 on an HDTV it could point out flaws to me that I can't see currently.

If you actually read what I said, I was referring to the mis-use of the example. Again, I was only pointing out that the example was an example of good animation, not necessarily good graphics, I was in no way saying MGS4 has worse/bad graphics, just saying that the example wasnt a very good one in the support of graphics.
MGS4 is a good example in the support of good graphics, but using an animation from the game is not.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I enjoy GT4 on ocassion from the perspective of looking at cars in action, test driving a couple of rare cars and such. However at the end of the day, there are several other racing games that I spend majority of my gaming time on and find much more exciting and entertaining.

Really? Im a very surprised, I play Gran Turismo purely for the gameplay, I hardly ever watch replays or anything anymore. I dont even use the chase cam, so I dont really see the cars Im driving very often.
Ive been playing GT5 Prologue since the EU release....thats not the graphics making me play.

 

[BrainGow=Bairn]

On the other hand, they are ignoring many aspects of racing that make it so exciting, and are instead concentrating on the smaller things that are not as noticeable. As I'm sure many of you would, I would trade GT TV for weather and a day/night cycle. But for some reason, that isn't how PD operates, and that's a shame. You almost get the impression that they aren't listening to the people.

This is my point EXACTLY...

 

[GT_Fanatic]

They're too busy playing MGS4

 

[Patrik]

In my opinion, MGS4 on my SDTV looked far better than Halo 3 or Gears of War on my friend's HDTV. But MGS4 also had a much longer development time.

Wait, maybe that means something.

Of course, when I get MGS4 on an HDTV it could point out flaws to me that I can't see currently.

Exactly

By the way I can tell you MGS4 looks awesome on a HDTV

Actually the only game series I've got every game of is MGS and GT, I think they're equal in the level of quality.

 

[Patrocles]

See.. im reading this interview again with Yamauchi (bless him) and the line where he says that GT5 could be out in 2010.
We all hope that wont happen, and we all hope it will be out in 2009 right? But we all know deep in our heart that it wont be out soon, and looking at the pace of how fast things are getting updated at the moment, i think we'll see the next "fall" update with damage in 2009, and GT5 in 2010 if not 2011.

Now before i go back into whine mode again , i would like to say that what i have seen so far is just amazing! car models, the tracks, the replays offcourse, the in car view, sounds are great, it's smooth, etc.
So kudos to PD for that!

Now the big question.. WHY do they take forever to make on GT game?
Is it the development kit for the PS3? is it because they are too strict and too anal about their games? small team?

See, i look around and see race games popping up within a year's development cycle.

Example: GRID... i know, not full sim and stuff like that, but it does have great graphics, a great damage model, and a day and night cycle (le mans races) plus great online racing.
and they developed that game close to a year of developing.
Why is it then that it takes PD sooo long to get online right? to get damage patched in a year after they released GT5P? there is no day and night cycle yet, and we can only dream of dynamic weather effects!
I can see the game coming out in 2010 without a day and night cycle and without weather effects... just like how GT4 came without online racing.

Prologue is great! but let's face it, after the challenges it's bone dry...
No weather, no night racing, no endurance, no damage, no fuel loss, no tyre wear, online is not so good yet, no pitstops, etc.

Again.. dont get me wrong, i am more then thankfull that PD creates games like GT, but i wonder why it takes them roughly taken about 4 years of development time for one game?

You have made some valid points. HOpefully, PD will get their act together over the next year or two. I'm new to the GT series, but it seems even if the next game came out in 2010 it will still sell well.

 

[Patrocles]

lol, that still looks like horrible graphics compared even to GTHD..

EDIT:

hahahahahaha, what a sucky game.. baaad graphics and listen what he says, 15 tracks and 46 car models???? the psysics doesn't seem near simulation either! 👍

I'm going to cry!! My beloved GTR, GTL, GTR2 series appears to be heading for the gamey arcade consoles!
I will pray to Allah that this simbin game will have full-on sim mode like their PC games...but I doubt it atm...

 

[NLxAROSA]

Just because it is a company with a good record on PC does not mean that they can pull off the same thing on a console.

True, but calling it an arcade racer based on a crappy youtube video when you know the team behind it only makes simulators is rediculous. I think making an assumption based on what SimBin did in the past (note: not just their name, but their track record) provides a more educated guess, but it will remain a guess nonetheless, until we see a demo or it's out. But some previews already mention it's a hardcore sim.

I don't think the hardware will be the limit for them though, I only hope that MS doesn't make them dumb the realism down in favor of the non-hardcore majority. And I really wanted to see this one for the PS3, too bad it's only for X360.

But back on topic: another reason why PD is taking so long is the fact they are now focusing on Prologue rather than the final GT5. Which should lead to some interesting updates between now and the final release!

 

[MrCooper]

[...] they are now focusing on Prologue rather than the final GT5.

I can't understand why people keep saying that...

Which should lead to some interesting updates between now and the final release!

... especially followed by something more insightful like this. Just think of the Prologue and its updates as development snapshots, which shouldn't delay the final product much if at all. So, would you rather wait just as long for GT5 but without being able to play with it already? I know I wouldn't.

As for the original question, I think the answer is simple and should be obvious: Because it takes a lot of hard work to achieve what they're achieving. It's well known how many man months it takes them to model a single car or track, just do the maths to get an idea of how long it would take them just to bring the GT4 content up to the level of GT5P...

 

[GT_Fanatic]

I can't understand why people keep saying that...



... especially followed by something more insightful like this. Just think of the Prologue and its updates as development snapshots, which shouldn't delay the final product much if at all. So, would you rather wait just as long for GT5 but without being able to play with it already? I know I wouldn't.

As for the original question, I think the answer is simple and should be obvious: Because it takes a lot of hard work to achieve what they're achieving. It's well known how many man months it takes them to model a single car or track, just do the maths to get an idea of how long it would take them just to bring the GT4 content up to the level of GT5P...

Not trying to insult you, but what has GT4 got to do with GT5 exept rendering cars and tracks into HD, which takes minimal hours and effort. The real effort goes into modelling the new cars and tracks.

 

[NLxAROSA]

I can't understand why people keep saying that...

Because PD said so in an interview?

 

[MrCooper]

[...] what has GT4 got to do with GT5 exept rendering cars and tracks into HD, which takes minimal hours and effort. The real effort goes into modelling the new cars and tracks.

Right, which is what I meant...

<Number of tracks in GT4> * <man months for modelling track in GT5 quality>

plus

<Number of cars in GT4> * <man months for modelling car in GT5 quality>

divided by the number of people working on it would be a rough estimate of the minimum amount of time required to recreate the amount of cars and tracks that were in GT4 in GT5 quality.

I hope it's clearer now, or I'll just have to admit that my English is failing me...

Because PD said so in an interview?

I assume you're referring to the last question of the interview. I don't see how that contradicts what I said - apparently they just haven't worked out all the details beyond the next snapshot or couple of snapshots yet, and how could they?

 

[GT_Fanatic]

Right, which is what I meant...

<Number of tracks in GT4> * <man months for modelling track in GT5 quality>

plus

<Number of cars in GT4> * <man months for modelling car in GT5 quality>

divided by the number of people working on it would be a rough estimate of the minimum amount of time required to recreate the amount of cars and tracks that were in GT4 in GT5 quality.

I hope it's clearer now, or I'll just have to admit that my English is failing me...




I assume you're referring to the last question of the interview. I don't see how that contradicts what I said - apparently they just haven't worked out all the details beyond the next snapshot or couple of snapshots yet, and how could they?

Your just quoting "man months" and "rough estimates". It takes one programmer three months to model one brand new car for GT5. Rendering tracks from GT4 doesn't take too much effort because the layout is already there.

 

[NLxAROSA]

I don't see how that contradicts what I said - apparently they just haven't worked out all the details beyond the next snapshot or couple of snapshots yet, and how could they?

It might, depending on how they work and what their planning is. For all we know they have two completely seperate teams/projects running.

We all know that PD stated that GT5P and GT5 will be identical concerning functionality and that the difference will only be in the amount of content.

Let's assume that in the past 50% of their team was devoted to updating GT5P and 50% to creating new content (you can use other figures but it will not matter for the example). Now if they switch this to 100% for GT5P updates and 0% to creating new content, the new content will obviously be delayed. Ofcourse nifty new features in GT5P may arrive sooner. 👍

The total amount of work to be done remains the same, but the order in which it is done does not, therefore some things will be sooner and some things will be later (GT5 content being one of those things).

Add to that that PD has never met any deadline on time, so we can safely assume that the work on GT5P will take longer, and so GT5 will be further delayed.

 

[888 Tuning]

It might, depending on how they work and what their planning is. For all we know they have two completely seperate teams/projects running.

We all know that PD stated that GT5P and GT5 will be identical concerning functionality and that the difference will only be in the amount of content.

Let's assume that in the past 50% of their team was devoted to updating GT5P and 50% to creating new content (you can use other figures but it will not matter for the example). Now if they switch this to 100% for GT5P updates and 0% to creating new content, the new content will obviously be delayed. Ofcourse nifty new features in GT5P may arrive sooner. 👍

The total amount of work to be done remains the same, but the order in which it is done does not, therefore some things will be sooner and some things will be later (GT5 content being one of those things).

Add to that that PD has never met any deadline on time, so we can safely assume that the work on GT5P will take longer, and so GT5 will be further delayed.

^^ agree

I would find it hard to believe they are working on 2 distinctly different products. Prologue is an offspring (for lack of a better word) for the full version.
I doubt they are going to remodel the tracks and cars already presented... I doubt that they are writing a different physics engine for GT5... This is, in every way, a prologue.. this is GT5 in the making. However far they are in the development of the full version, a small subsection of this full version will be maintained as Prologue. It would be amazingly bad business/development to be spending time cutting separate code for GT5 and GT5P.

Proper process would dictate that development of GT5 is at the forefront and changes introduced into GT5P will have filtered from GT5, not the otherway around... though I have spent a fair amount of time with Japanese software companies developing product and nothing surprises me anymore : )

 

[GT_Fanatic]

^^ agree

I would find it hard to believe they are working on 2 distinctly different products. Prologue is an offspring (for lack of a better word) for the full version.
I doubt they are going to remodel the tracks and cars already presented... I doubt that they are writing a different physics engine for GT5... This is, in every way, a prologue.. this is GT5 in the making. However far they are in the development of the full version, a small subsection of this full version will be maintained as Prologue. It would be amazingly bad business/development to be spending time cutting separate code for GT5 and GT5P.

Proper process would dictate that development of GT5 is at the forefront and changes introduced into GT5P will have filtered from GT5, not the otherway around... though I have spent a fair amount of time with Japanese software companies developing product and nothing surprises me anymore : )

I believe the foundation of the code for GT5 is already the code for GT5p. Thats why they're gradually evolving GT5P into GT5

 

[NLxAROSA]

It would be amazingly bad business/development to be spending time cutting separate code for GT5 and GT5P. Proper process would dictate that development of GT5 is at the forefront and changes introduced into GT5P will have filtered from GT5

Essentialy, GT5P = GT5. The only difference will be in content (tracks/cars). So based on the statement by PD that their focus will be on GT5P rather than the full GT5, I assume they are now focusing on the game's mechanics (physics, online, etc.) rather than extra content. And the best part of it is that we will probably get those advanced features in Prologue rather than having to wait for GT5. So the way I see it, the delay for GT5 is actually a good thing, since we will be getting a lot of stuff in Prologue way before the final release of GT5.

I guess that's what MrCooper tried to say (correct me if I'm wrong though ).

 

[RedBaron]

One part of PD team is working hard on (re)creating cars and tracks in HD quality. And another part of the team is constantly updating game engine for final GT5 and we can taste their GT5 beta version snapshots through Prologue updates, that's the thing I appreciate very much.

 

[deadlyz33]

One part of PD team is working hard on (re)creating cars and tracks in HD quality. And another part of the team is constantly updating game engine for final GT5 and we can taste their GT5 beta version snapshots through Prologue updates, that's the thing I appreciate very much.

Imagine if prologue never came out. We would have nothing but pictures to drool over! Wow that would suck.

 

[Rusty*]

Imagine if prologue never came out. We would have nothing but pictures to drool over! Wow that would suck.

Yes thats true!
I believe GT5P is very important in the process to make GT5 all that they can make it, GT5P is the test model for all there new ideas and if they bring out an update that you think is not quite right, then ju7st remember alot of things are still in the test phase to see if it is going to work/ be better etc.
Like damage they are bringing that to GT5P in the next major update so they can test how it will be recieved and how accurate it is etc.👍
PD has an excelent base to test everything on before deciding on important issues before GT5 release, so I think that the longer we wait the more 'polished' GT5 will become. So I have patience.

 

[RedOak]

Your just quoting "man months" and "rough estimates". It takes one programmer three months to model one brand new car for GT5. Rendering tracks from GT4 doesn't take too much effort because the layout is already there.

programmers have nothing to do with the car's physics ['settings]. If anything, they wrote the code and tools for the cars, and a Game Designer will take care of the car's behaviors... even better if they have real test drivers in to focus test the cars.

 

[Ardius]

programmers have nothing to do with the car's physics. If anything, they wrote the code and tools for the cars, and a Game Designer will take care of the car's behaviors... even better if they have real test drivers in to focus test the cars.

Actually they do, programmers create the game engine in the first place, a game designer is merely a person who just does a little programming and generally leads the direction of the game design. It would be very odd for a game designer to be doing such specialised work as game engine physics.

I think what you meant to say was programmers have nothing to do with the modelling and texturing of the cars, which is left to graphics designers, texturers and riggers (along with a bit of animation).
But GT Fanatic's point was about man hours, not who does what job.

 

[Monkey House]

I've been playing GT a lot lately.


GT4.

(Oops. Had two windows open, and posted this in the wrong thread!)

 

[Beerz]

I've been playing GT a lot lately.


GT4.

Good for you.

 

[RedOak]

no, i meant exactly what i said. The thing is, i'm a game designer and i do that stuff all day long

To clarify... programmers do the tools(amongts other things)... designers play with the tools. Same as level designers... programmers do the tools (editor) but the LDs do the actual level and scripting involved in it.

In GT5, the designers are the ones setting the "stock" settings for cars, as well as all the upgrades... and whatnot; using the tools the programmers did for them.

As an example, they probably have a lot of settings that players don't even see in the game (from the UI) such as "FWRmaxrate=0,08; FWLmaxrate=0,08"... and stuff like that. Its hard to get your head around since the technical sheets for such games are enormous.

I actually wouldn't even be surprised most of it is in excel sheets that are scripted to update game data from a local build (of the engine) which is then exported to the actual build of the game for the entire work group.

As for car models and textures... those are done by Modelers (textures are done by the same people)... who work with FX guys who work on shaders and lighting effects, while "level artists" do all the art of placing textures and random stuff such as foliage and other things...

Actually they do, programmers create the game engine in the first place, a game designer is merely a person who just does a little programming and generally leads the direction of the game design. It would be very odd for a game designer to be doing such specialised work as game engine physics.

I think what you meant to say was programmers have nothing to do with the modelling and texturing of the cars, which is left to graphics designers, texturers and riggers (along with a bit of animation).
But GT Fanatic's point was about man hours, not who does what job.