One year and a few days ago...

[Gil Abobeleira]

I completly agree. But I think things look good for future. After all GT4 is claiming to be the Real Driving Simulator, and they have to prove it more and more as the series goes on. Others will follow. Just look at the improvment from GT3 to GT4 (havent played the ones before).

But, that's the thing, everybody who has tried GTR/GPL/GTL/RBR/LFS and even Enthusia knows that the "real driving simulator" is a load of dribble... Maybe that's why they see us as "gamers", not "simmers" (and, BTW, a gamer can be as determined as a simmer, in their respective subject).

 

[Wolfe]

Maybe that's why they see us as "gamers", not "simmers" (and, BTW, a gamer can be as determined as a simmer, in their respective subject).

Indeed -- Gran Turismo is often a taboo subject at PC racing simulation forums.

I just wish more of those "hardcore" PC sim guys would have given Enthusia a try (those of them who own PS2's, anyway)...I'm sure many of them would have liked it.

 

[JasBird]

Indeed -- Gran Turismo is often a taboo subject at PC racing simulation forums.

I just wish more of those "hardcore" PC sim guys would have given Enthusia a try (those of them who own PS2's, anyway)...I'm sure many of them would have liked it.

I've been there myself . Because I jumped off the PC hardware race for a while not keeping up with the latest and greatest, I borrowed GT3 & a PS2 from a friend. Wasn't as bad as I had taught and been hooked since. After GT4, EPR and RBR I have accepted the PS2 as a simulator and don't play on my old PC anymore. So much easier and cheaper to set up than a PC too.👍

Need to fire up Grand Prix Legends from time to time though.

 

[Scaff]

Indeed -- Gran Turismo is often a taboo subject at PC racing simulation forums.

I just wish more of those "hardcore" PC sim guys would have given Enthusia a try (those of them who own PS2's, anyway)...I'm sure many of them would have liked it.

Not 100% sure I would agree with that, opinion on many forums with regard to GT4 is just as divided as it has been here.

I'm quite sure that many of the 'hardcore' sim crowd could be just as dismissive of Enthusia's issues, particularly the high speed physics, surface detail (or rather the lack of it), some of the FWD characteristics and particularly the tuning and car set-up.

The only PS2 sim that seems to get genuine praise from the hardcore PC sim crowd (and its still begrudging at times) is Richard Burns Rally.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Dave A]

I'd agree with that, on RSC the opinion on GT4 is no more divided than it is on here.

 

[JasBird]

Some of the main point that the "hardore" gamer seem to have against games like GT4 & EPR is the no-cockpit view & the no damage models. It's a shame that some people will ignore games based on atleast no-cockpit view. Actually having a cockpit view or not is a debate on itself about what's more realistic

I think we will get both soon with the new genration of consoles. It seems that Project Gotham 3 on Xbox 360 has stepped up on the cockpit view? I guess damage is also a licensing issue.

Scaff: Since you mentioned RBR, I have it on the PS2. Just tried it on the PC a while back, and I found it easier. More grip and the car felt more stable on the PC?

 

[Dave A]

The bottom line regarding GT4 and EPR in realtion to PC sim's physics wise, is a PC doesn't have the limitations a console does, sure back when the PS2 was new it was super powerful, it could do games liek a high end PC, 6 years later it can't keep up with a mid range PC let alone a high end one. PD and Konami have both done great job's with the hardware they have, but the simple fact is, thePS2 is incapable of prodiding physics engines as complex and capable as a PC can. Ofcourse, how that extra ability is used is down to the programmer's of the PC game, but some like LFS and GTL are imo, a lot more realistic in terms of feel and how the car reacts than GT4 imo. But as I said, you try getting a more complex pair of physics engines on the PS2 than thoes of GT4 and EPR.

 

[Wolfe]

Not 100% sure I would agree with that, opinion on many forums with regard to GT4 is just as divided as it has been here.

I'd agree with that, on RSC the opinion on GT4 is no more divided than it is on here.

Well, I don't frequent any PC-sim forums anymore, that's why I said "Gran Turismo," and not "GT4."

Anyway, if that's how they feel about GT4, I'll take your word for it.

I'm quite sure that many of the 'hardcore' sim crowd could be just as dismissive of Enthusia's issues, particularly the high speed physics, surface detail (or rather the lack of it), some of the FWD characteristics and particularly the tuning and car set-up.

There are few PC sims that don't have issues with high speed physics and surface detail -- the PC sim crowd has tolerated games that are just as bad about it.

I would agree with the FWD characteristics issue if I thought it was an issue in EPR, but unfortunately, I don't.

The tuning and car set-up would be the real killer, you're right. I didn't think of that.

The only PS2 sim that seems to get genuine praise from the hardcore PC sim crowd (and its still begrudging at times) is Richard Burns Rally.

Regards

Scaff

Are you sure they aren't referring to the PC version?

 

[Scaff]

There are few PC sims that don't have issues with high speed physics and surface detail -- the PC sim crowd has tolerated games that are just as bad about it.

Come on PC sims by and large are much better in this regard now, and to be honest it is one of the areas that in my opinion GT4 betters Enthusia in.

I would agree with the FWD characteristics issue if I thought it was an issue in EPR, but unfortunately, I don't.

An area we will have to agree to disagree, but I would point out that I have a lot of track experience with FWD cars and Enthusia has a lot of problems in this area.

Just a few examples.

One is the issue of full throttle launches, its imposiable to get a FWD car to bog down with a full throttle launch in Enthusia. This is often explained away as EPR slipping the clutch, yet in real life this would just result in a big reduction in clutch life, a nasty smell and not much help with the launch. Full throttle FWD launches in EPR are just plain wrong.

Understeer while under full braking is not strong enough by any stretch of the imagination (don't get me wrong GT4 goes too far in this direction but its still closer than EPR) and its too easy to recover from. Also the transition from no grip to grip is not as nasty as it should be, this would normally be a rapid transition that can quite easily unbalance a car (particularly if the wheel base was short).

Also the progression to understeer from full throttle aplication with heavy steering lock is not quick enough at all. Take a second gear corner (such as the last hairpin at Tsukuba), going straight to wide open throttle when half way around this corner should result in an almost immediate transfer to heavy understeer. Insteed you get a much slower transition that almost allows you to get all the way around. Again a full lift to remove the effect should result in a very rapid and brutal shift back to grip and the effect in EPR is too 'nice'.

As I said above don't take this as a GT4 is better piece because its not, GT4 has some big issues regarding front tyre grip (i.e. too little of it), but so does EPR, but in this case is too much of it, particularly in regard to FWD cars.

EPR does well, but to say that no issue exists with FWD cars in EPR is simply not true. They are too easy to drive, too slow in the progression to understeer (which is also too light in its effect) and too smooth on the recovery from understeer.

Related Post

The tuning and car set-up would be the real killer, you're right. I didn't think of that.

Tuning and set-up can be a major turn-off with EPR, it is a problem for me. I love to play around with the set-up, particularly with full track / race cars and EPRs simplistic approach and lack of values is a major issue for me.

Again GT4 is far from perfect in this regard, with its lack of real world values in some areas and limited set-up options and ranges.

Are you sure they aren't referring to the PC version?

Nope the PS2 version has also received a lot of praise, but it does have the advantage of only having to deal with one car at a time, which does allow a lot of the PS2's resources to be devoted to the physics engine. Something no track game on the PS2 can do.

Scaff: Since you mentioned RBR, I have it on the PS2. Just tried it on the PC a while back, and I found it easier. More grip and the car felt more stable on the PC?

I've only played the PC demo (I too have the PS2 version) and that was quite a while ago so its not exactly fresh in my mind. I will have to try and get a copy of the full PC version and give it a go.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Vonie]

I've had this game since September and just drove the Smart last week. That is a fun car to drive, especially on the dirt.

 

[Scaff]

I've had this game since September and just drove the Smart last week. That is a fun car to drive, especially on the dirt.

And is a classic example of EPRs understeer issues.

While the smart may not be FWD, it does have a very high COG, a short wheel base, narrower front track that rear (by a big margin) and very narrow tyres. The real thing will understeer at the first sight of a corner (my wife uses one at work and her best friend also drives one), yet in EPR even on a wet circuit understeer is slow to build and easy to recover from.

The smart is a great city car and ideal in that environment, but a great handling car it is not, with understeer being its primary dominating handling trait in the real world, but not in EPR.

I'm sorry if my posts are sounding a little negative here, but I do at times get a bit fed-up with what I perceive at times to be a slightly rose-tinted attitude towards EPRs faults. A lot of which at times I think are ignored simply because its not GT4. As I have always maintained (and this is not the first time I have said it) both GT4 and EPR have some major issues with them.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Wolfe]

Come on PC sims by and large are much better in this regard now, and to be honest it is one of the areas that in my opinion GT4 betters Enthusia in.

Honestly, the only PC sims that come to mind that do a good job of simulating lift at high speed and/or bumpy roads are Live for Speed, rFactor, GTR, and GTL. Especially with the bumpy roads part -- it's a relatively new thing in the racing sim world. There are many older PC games that are still being played that have smooth roads (even some rally sims) and don't convey a feeling of lightness at high speed.

I never said, however, that GT4 was worse in this area. We already agreed that GT4 was better at lift and bumpiness in the Physics:GT4 vs EPR thread.

An area we will have to agree to disagree, but I would point out that I have a lot of track experience with FWD cars and Enthusia has a lot of problems in this area.

Just a few examples.

One is the issue of full throttle launches, its imposiable to get a FWD car to bog down with a full throttle launch in Enthusia. This is often explained away as EPR slipping the clutch, yet in real life this would just result in a big reduction in clutch life, a nasty smell and not much help with the launch. Full throttle FWD launches in EPR are just plain wrong.

Understeer while under full braking is not strong enough by any stretch of the imagination (don't get me wrong GT4 goes too far in this direction but its still closer than EPR) and its too easy to recover from. Also the transition from no grip to grip is not as nasty as it should be, this would normally be a rapid transition that can quite easily unbalance a car (particularly if the wheel base was short).

Also the progression to understeer from full throttle aplication with heavy steering lock is not quick enough at all. Take a second gear corner (such as the last hairpin at Tsukuba), going straight to wide open throttle when half way around this corner should result in an almost immediate transfer to heavy understeer. Insteed you get a much slower transition that almost allows you to get all the way around. Again a full lift to remove the effect should result in a very rapid and brutal shift back to grip and the effect in EPR is too 'nice'.

As I said above don't take this as a GT4 is better piece because its not, GT4 has some big issues regarding front tyre grip (i.e. too little of it), but so does EPR, but in this case is too much of it, particularly in regard to FWD cars.

EPR does well, but to say that no issue exists with FWD cars in EPR is simply not true. They are too easy to drive, too slow in the progression to understeer (which is also too light in its effect) and too smooth on the recovery from understeer.

Related Post

Sorry to say this, mate, but that comment of mine was light-hearted, and admittedly ambiguous -- I was saying that I don't have a problem with EPR's understeer...not that EPR doesn't have a problem with understeer.

I understand these faults, but I still feel that EPR's understeer is closer to reality than GT4's. Not perfect, not flawless, but closer. And this is based on driving my friends' FWD cars in various conditions.

And is a classic example of EPRs understeer issues.

While the smart may not be FWD, it does have a very high COG, a short wheel base, narrower front track that rear (by a big margin) and very narrow tyres. The real thing will understeer at the first sight of a corner (my wife uses one at work and her best friend also drives one), yet in EPR even on a wet circuit understeer is slow to build and easy to recover from.

The smart is a great city car and ideal in that environment, but a great handling car it is not, with understeer being its primary dominating handling trait in the real world, but not in EPR.

I have yet to drive one, but I believe what you say, and yes, the Smart isn't anything like that.

I'm sorry if my posts are sounding a little negative here, but I do at times get a bit fed-up with what I perceive at times to be a slightly rose-tinted attitude towards EPRs faults. A lot of which at times I think are ignored simply because its not GT4. As I have always maintained (and this is not the first time I have said it) both GT4 and EPR have some major issues with them.


Regards

Scaff

I won't speak for the other members here, but I will say once again that I do not believe that EPR is flawless -- I simply believe that it is as close as you can get to perfection on the PS2, just like I believe that Live for Speed is the closest you can get to perfection on any gaming platform.

You must remember that you are in the (unfortunate?) position of preferring neither GT4 nor EPR -- GTP members who have a preference for one or the other, regardless of which one it is, are likely going to gloss over the faults of their favorite while dissing the other one. It's simply human nature. I try to avoid falling into such habits myself, but I cannot and will not hide the fact that I think EPR's faults are less important and less damaging than GT4's faults. I've told you this before, and it's the reason why I prefer EPR -- I am allowed to prefer one of the two, am I not?

 

[Scaff]

Honestly, the only PC sims that come to mind that do a good job of simulating lift at high speed and/or bumpy roads are Live for Speed, rFactor, GTR, and GTL. Especially with the bumpy roads part -- it's a relatively new thing in the racing sim world. There are many older PC games that are still being played that have smooth roads (even some rally sims) and don't convey a feeling of lightness at high speed.

I never said, however, that GT4 was worse in this area. We already agreed that GT4 was better at lift and bumpiness in the Physics:GT4 vs EPR thread.

Sorry I should have been more clear in this, I meant to say that the more recent PC sims (as in the ones you have mentioned) do simulate this.

I also did not imply that you had said that GT4 was worse in this area, I was just stating that in my opinion GT4 is better in this area.

To me this is one of my 'big' flaws with EPR, these are both major factors in terms of car control and significant characteristics. To me this is as big an issue as GT4s inability to donut or overly snappy return from oversteer.

Sorry to say this, mate, but that comment of mine was light-hearted, and admittedly ambiguous -- I was saying that I don't have a problem with EPR's understeer...not that EPR doesn't have a problem with understeer.

I understand these faults, but I still feel that EPR's understeer is closer to reality than GT4's. Not perfect, not flawless, but closer. And this is based on driving my friends' FWD cars in various conditions.

And my comments are based on many hours of track and proving ground experence of driving FWD cars at and over the limit (something I hope you have not done on the publiuc road).

In this area EPR is not closer to the reality of understeer than GT4, both are still not 100% correct, but EPR is further away, particularly on the wet tracks.

I have yet to drive one, but I believe what you say, and yes, the Smart isn't anything like that.

I honestly wish they were as fun to drive in reality as they are in EPR.

I won't speak for the other members here, but I will say once again that I do not believe that EPR is flawless -- I simply believe that it is as close as you can get to perfection on the PS2, just like I believe that Live for Speed is the closest you can get to perfection on any gaming platform.

Again you already know my thoughts on this one, for me EPR has as many significant flaws as GT4 has, each is strong in some areas and flawed in other areas.

I would however agree with you on LFS, it certainly is one of the best track sims around at present on any platform (and even thats still far from perfect).

You must remember that you are in the (unfortunate?) position of preferring neither GT4 nor EPR -- GTP members who have a preference for one or the other, regardless of which one it is, are likely going to gloss over the faults of their favorite while dissing the other one. It's simply human nature. I try to avoid falling into such habits myself, but I cannot and will not hide the fact that I think EPR's faults are less important and less damaging than GT4's faults. I've told you this before, and it's the reason why I prefer EPR -- I am allowed to prefer one of the two, am I not?

I consider it to be a fortunate position to be in, and please don't get me wrong, members who have a similar attitude towards GT4 are just as guilty.

I also can't agree with you in regard to EPRs faults, the lack of surface detail and the high speed issues are huge problems with EPR for me. All the gains it makes in the lower speed areas are canceled out here, as these two areas are so important to track work.

Also please don't think that the comments on FWD cars and understeer above are the end of the list, EPRs desire to let almost every FWD car exhibit lift-off oversteer characteristics are also off, but this is back to my belief that while GT4 has issues with too little front tyre grip, then EPR has issues with too much front tyre grip..

And of course you are allowed to have a preference between the two.

Regards

Scaff

 

[viperpilot]

informative and interesting stuff you guys have put up here, but i think the understeering is in GT4 more realistic than in EPR, at least for me it's so.
but maybe it's just that i haven't driven too much FWD-cars in EPR.....

viper

 

[JasBird]

The biggest difference for me between GT4 and EPR is when it comes to braking. In GT4 you don't get penalized enough for comming into a corner to fast, because a touch on the brake don't upset the balance and you can still stay on the line. Yes you get understeer if you enter too fast, but braking don't seem to upset the balance, just reduce speed and understeer.

EPR is less forgiving if you enter a corner to fast, and have to brake hard, the car won't turn in aswell. It will go more towards the outside of the corner. Also here I'm not talking about setting the car up for a slide, but basically when you entered a corner faster than possible and need to correct. On the other side off course it feels a little to easy to save the slide you get.

Hatzenbach for instance is a good place to notice the differnce. I think if you take the same car around the Nurburgring in both games, the main reason for the lap time difference would be because of how the game handle braking.

I just bought Forza Motorsport last week. What can I say I'm crazy about cars. Less SIM then I had hoped for, but they seem to have got the braking correct. There you really can't brake into the corner. Even with ABS it really upset the car balance. Traction for braking really takes away traction for cornering, which sounds about right in my book.

Well I think I confused enough people for one day. 👍

Cheers

Bullitt73

 

[viperpilot]

no, i don't think you've confused a lot of people. you sound very confident about the things, and all sounds logical for me! don't worry, i'm not confused *gg*

viper

 

[Jimjams]

To me this is as big an issue as GT4s inability to donut or overly snappy return from oversteer.

But with respect, you can't just dismiss the problem as an "inability to donut" - as if that's what we're concerned about. Being able to stamp on the accelerator in a high powered car with the wheels not straight and there being no consequences is at the heart of the problem with GT4's cornering behaviour.

Both Clarkson and the Laguna instructor were quite dismissive - "no you can't do that"- about GT4's cornering characteristics e.g. breaking while cornering, and flooring the accelerator on exit which got the car straight up to 100 mph in no time. At another point Clarkson said that adjusting the throttle or breaks while cornering as GT4 allowed would throw you off the track. If someone went to a track day after only GT4 experience, they'd wonder what on earth the instructors were going on about with their list of things to do *before* you turn in at a corner. GT4's understeer swamps all this behaviour. If you do it wrong in EPR, it gets hairy, and if you do it right, you actually are faster. I spent a lot of time on the GT4 licences, and it really doesn't make a blind bit of difference whether you do it right or drive like a moron (actually, you're slow if you do it right).

It's very easy to take these comments (such as Clarkson's, in your signature), out of context. Tiff Nidell, in his GT4/RL comparison on 'The Gadget Show', said at one point that the understeer of the RL Golf GTi was doing the same as it did in GT4 (he also complimented GT4 for the kick to the steering wheel when hitting the curb), but in fact, in his hot lap in GT4, he understeered straight off the track saying "no, not again!" (presumably he did it during the 2 practice laps as well) and complained it was because the game "went wrong...it didn't do what I wanted it to". There's no way he would have done that in RL. He did, of course, lose in GT4 to the programme presenter, and beat him easily in RL on the track.

 

[Scaff]

But with respect, you can't just dismiss the problem as an "inability to donut" - as if that's what we're concerned about. Being able to stamp on the accelerator in a high powered car with the wheels not straight and there being no consequences is at the heart of the problem with GT4's cornering behaviour.

I don't think that I dismissed it as just an inability to do-nut at all? Nor did I say that was GT4's only problem by any stretch of the imagination.

Please re-read what I have quite clearly said, that the lack of surface detail and massive lack of lift at speed in EPR is as big an issue. And for me its the heart of the problem with EPR, very, very few tracks in the world are as smooth as those in EPR. Additionally the fact that EPR does not seem to replicate lift at speed is a major issue, simply because this is a major factor when driving on track.

I have never said that either GT4 or EPR is totally correct, simply that in my opinion both have significant flaws with the physics engines.

Both Clarkson and the Laguna instructor were quite dismissive - "no you can't do that"- about GT4's cornering characteristics e.g. breaking while cornering, and flooring the accelerator on exit which got the car straight up to 100 mph in no time. At another point Clarkson said that adjusting the throttle or breaks while cornering as GT4 allowed would throw you off the track. If someone went to a track day after only GT4 experience, they'd wonder what on earth the instructors were going on about with their list of things to do *before* you turn in at a corner. GT4's understeer swamps all this behaviour. If you do it wrong in EPR, it gets hairy, and if you do it right, you actually are faster. I spent a lot of time on the GT4 licences, and it really doesn't make a blind bit of difference whether you do it right or drive like a moron (actually, you're slow if you do it right).

And are you implying that EPR would serve you any better?

Because while it would serve you better in some areas, it would hinder you just as much in other areas.

It's very easy to take these comments (such as Clarkson's, in your signature), out of context. Tiff Nidell, in his GT4/RL comparison on 'The Gadget Show', said at one point that the understeer of the RL Golf GTi was doing the same as it did in GT4 (he also complimented GT4 for the kick to the steering wheel when hitting the curb), but in fact, in his hot lap in GT4, he understeered straight off the track saying "no, not again!" (presumably he did it during the 2 practice laps as well) and complained it was because the game "went wrong...it didn't do what I wanted it to". There's no way he would have done that in RL. He did, of course, lose in GT4 to the programme presenter, and beat him easily in RL on the track.

You mean just as you have taken one part of my post above and used it out of context?

Can you please point out at what point I have stated that GT4 is 100% realistic?

Or did you miss the part of my post when I said this

Again you already know my thoughts on this one, for me EPR has as many significant flaws as GT4 has, each is strong in some areas and flawed in other areas.

I would however agree with you on LFS, it certainly is one of the best track sims around at present on any platform (and even thats still far from perfect).

Regards

Scaff

 

[Jimjams]

I don't think that I dismissed it as just an inability to do-nut at all? Nor did I say that was GT4's only problem by any stretch of the imagination.

I think this is a misunderstanding. The point I was making is that 'donuts'/'doughnuts' are a red herring (but thanks for the opportunity to say that.) In themselves, they're trivial (to me). But their absence is a symptom of a physics where throttle control doesn't matter. I wasn't suggesting that you think that they're the only problem, but it sounded (to me) as though you were conveniently reducing a much larger physics problem affecting most cornering to just donuts.

Please re-read what I have quite clearly said, that the lack of surface detail and massive lack of lift at speed in EPR is as big an issue. And for me its the heart of the problem with EPR, very, very few tracks in the world are as smooth as those in EPR. Additionally the fact that EPR does not seem to replicate lift at speed is a major issue, simply because this is a major factor when driving on track.

Well, regarding texture, I agree. But are you saying GT4's modelling of this is anything more than an "effect" (cosmetic illusion)? Same with the FF. I don't think it provides any meaningful information or realistic behaviour. In fact, one of the super-expensive pro-sim wheels doesn't even do FF because they reckon there is no meaningfully accurate FF simulation on offer at the moment. They'd rather have none than get it wrong. The Carousel is a bit up an over (I know this isn't really what you mean by texture) but the incline and it's edge might as well not be there as far as GT4's cars' response is concerned. I'm just putting these 'effects' into proportion.

I have never said that either GT4 or EPR is totally correct, simply that in my opinion both have significant flaws with the physics engines.

I agree with both your opinion here, and what you say your opinion is.

And are you implying that EPR would serve you any better?Scaff

Well, I suspect yes, because the track drivers I've spoken to say that balancing with precise throttle control is the key to cornering fast. EPR teaches throttle control and the principles of breaking, changing down, balancing with the throttle *before* turning. GT4 doesn't. The only real behaviour to contend with in GT4 is understeer if you break to late, or the slides which you can't really catch - they seem to be a sub-routine that ignores your inputs once started and you just have to hope to anticipate the snap-back when it comes.

Because while it would serve you better in some areas, it would hinder you just as much in other areas.

But if you give a novice a powerful car with no traction control and ask for a steady lap of GT4 and EPR, I'd bet they'd make it safely in GT4 but would at some point apply to much throttle and end up sideways/spinning in EPR. This would be a useful education. Conversely, what we've seen with GT4 is a pro driver ploughing off the track (the way everyone does until they know about the understeer issue) when they think they shouldn't have done.

You mean just as you have taken one part of my post above and used it out of context?

Nope, I hope you see that?

Can you please point out at what point I have stated that GT4 is 100% realistic?

Er.. I will, if you point out at what point I stated that you stated GT4 is 100% realistic.

Seriously, I'm not going to bicker. I wish I still liked GT4; it's much nicer visually/aesthetically. But having spent the time getting 'Golds' comfortably - so that I could get them at will on every license before moving on (with DS2 and DFPro) - I'm completely sure that there is only an arbitrary relationship between how you drive and how fast you are. At one point I travelled down a straight for around 100 yrds sideways in a race car and I wasn't any slower! In EPR, small inputs affect the car's behaviour and your lap time, and you can feel the difference.

Oh dear, I think I've become a fanboy...

 

[Hun200kmh]

Oh dear, I think I've become a fanboy...

lol, I don't think so, you just think EPR is better, something I also think, and I don't consider myself a fanboy.

That said, and because I don't have neither the patience nor the knowledge needed to keep up with such an interesting discussion, I will just say that my case is an extreme one. Since I bought EPR I have almost ceased to play GT4.

Why? I think that because of two reasons:

a) the races in EPR are more interesting because the AI drivers are better, even if they're still morons at times.

b) because the driving experience "feels" more real ... to me.

Now, about a) I think there's litle point in discussing it. About b), I won't argue with Scaff that any of his statements are wrong. And I know that both games have flaws. But, even if both are wrong, one of them feels closer to reality.

Others will think exactly the opposite (that GT4 is the one that "feels" closer to reality). And I don't mind that, as long as everyone gets what they want.

To tell the truth, the only concern I have right now is about an Enthusia sequel.

 

[Scaff]

Well, regarding texture, I agree. But are you saying GT4's modelling of this is anything more than an "effect" (cosmetic illusion)? Same with the FF. I don't think it provides any meaningful information or realistic behaviour. In fact, one of the super-expensive pro-sim wheels doesn't even do FF because they reckon there is no meaningfully accurate FF simulation on offer at the moment. They'd rather have none than get it wrong. The Carousel is a bit up an over (I know this isn't really what you mean by texture) but the incline and it's edge might as well not be there as far as GT4's cars' response is concerned. I'm just putting these 'effects' into proportion.

Force Feedback is a subject in itself and one that will always divide folk.

However on the issue of the track surface detail in EPR its the sheer lack of almost any detail at all that I have an issue with, the best example of this is the 'ring. In reality (and I have driven it) for a track its a bump old place and that has a major effect on suspension tuning and the cars balance and handling. Driving it in EPR you would not believe this as the surface has been massively sanitised.

The subject of high speed lift and EPRs lack of it, is a different issue and a major one at that. You get no feeling of reduced steering effect or lift in EPR and it is a major flaw.

Well, I suspect yes, because the track drivers I've spoken to say that balancing with precise throttle control is the key to cornering fast. EPR teaches throttle control and the principles of breaking, changing down, balancing with the throttle *before* turning. GT4 doesn't. The only real behaviour to contend with in GT4 is understeer if you break to late, or the slides which you can't really catch - they seem to be a sub-routine that ignores your inputs once started and you just have to hope to anticipate the snap-back when it comes.

I would not argue that it is one of the keys to cornering fast, but so are a whole lot of other factors. While I would agree that throttle control is far better in EPR, in that its much more natural to hold a trailing throttle in EPR, I would have to disagree on the other areas.

Both EPR and GT4 are appaling as far as threshold braking go, and neither teach you a thing about changing down and balancing a car before the turn (unless either have a magic heel and toe simulator that I have not come across - and no the MC3 additional pedal does not do this correctly). Additionally EPR allows you to take huge liberties in regard to braking and steering into a corner and the understeer penalties that simple don't occur.

While I would also agree that GT4 is too nasty in regard to being able to correct these issues, EPR does the opposite in that its far to easy (more on that in a moment).

But if you give a novice a powerful car with no traction control and ask for a steady lap of GT4 and EPR, I'd bet they'd make it safely in GT4 but would at some point apply to much throttle and end up sideways/spinning in EPR. This would be a useful education. Conversely, what we've seen with GT4 is a pro driver ploughing off the track (the way everyone does until they know about the understeer issue) when they think they shouldn't have done.

The Tiff understeering off issue could easily be described as another comment that needs more context to be 100% sure of his meaning. For example it could be argued that the loss was as much a result of the lack of real 'feel' that sims develops as anything else. In the real world the first indicator of understeer is not visual, but the change in feel and feedback from the car through the steering and set of your pants. Remove this and no matter how 'real' the recreation, if the driver does not have the cues they normally use to detect a change in balance, then they are going to get caught out.

However your point in regard to GT4 is valid, but so would be the issue in regard to EPR and braking understeer, as Sterling Moss once said 'Slow-in and Fast out, Fast-in and Dead out. Setting the car up correctly for the corner is just as important (and some drivers would argue more important) that fine throttle control on the way out, as the principal desciding factor in corner exit speed is your entry speed.

Seriously, I'm not going to bicker. I wish I still liked GT4; it's much nicer visually/aesthetically. But having spent the time getting 'Golds' comfortably - so that I could get them at will on every license before moving on (with DS2 and DFPro) - I'm completely sure that there is only an arbitrary relationship between how you drive and how fast you are. At one point I travelled down a straight for around 100 yrds sideways in a race car and I wasn't any slower! In EPR, small inputs affect the car's behaviour and your lap time, and you can feel the difference.

Oh dear, I think I've become a fanboy...

And EPR has moments that are just the same.

EPR will let you easily drift an LMP car at speed and recover it with ease, again with no significant loss in speed. Give it a go at Speedopolis.

Additionally the ease at which the Caterham R400 can be drifted is plan rediculous. This is a car in which yes the back end can be made to step out of line, but to hold it out is a totally different ball game. The R400 (and most of the Superlight series) have very short throttle travels and a very short wheelbase. They are notoriously difficult to drift for any serious distance without skill of the highest level, yet in EPR you can initiate, hold and recover a drift with a little practice.

This is arguable no more 'real' that the issues GT4 suffers from, what is true is that it is more 'fun', but thats not the point here.

Simply put I maintain that neither is significantly better than the other, hence the reason I carry quotes praising both in my sig, both have a lot you can learn from and both have a lot that can mislead. And I've spent enough time on tracks and at proving grounds that my comments here are not speculation, but informed opinion.

To tell the truth, the only concern I have right now is about an Enthusia sequel.

Now that I 100% agree on and I still take heart from the comment in teh back of the EPR manual (PAL version) This is not the end. The legend has just begun....Enthusia Professional Racing

Amen to that I say (just do a better job on the tuning next time - 'cos its simplistic rubbish in EPR)


Regards

Scaff

 

[Wolfe]

...I won't argue with Scaff that any of his statements are wrong. And I know that both games have flaws. But, even if both are wrong, one of them feels closer to reality.

Others will think exactly the opposite (that GT4 is the one that "feels" closer to reality). And I don't mind that, as long as everyone gets what they want.

+1. 👍

I think Hun200kmh nailed the bottom line of this discussion here.

Oh dear, I think I've become a fanboy...

Nah, fanboys are blind, think nothing could ever possibly be better than (whatever-it-is-they're-a-fan-of), and will retaliate with insults and half-baked arguments whenever their "precious" is criticized.

You've presented your side of the argument in a civilized, rational manner, and the bottom line is that you simply prefer EPR to GT4.

Oh, and if anyone here calls you an Enthusia fanboy, it's probably because they're a GT4 fanboy themselves.

 

[Ben Aracin]

I rented Enthusia after playing the demo and enjoyed it.
I ended up getting it to add to my console "racing sim" collection as i just am not getting a exspensive PC just to play those so much better PC sims.
I prefer Enthusia to GTbore.
It did alot wrong and alot right with just it's first game.
PD have had four now and still haven't "gotten" it.
I enjoy the arcade sim TOCA3 simply for the "feeling" that it gives you that your in a race, but it's just another console wannabe sim.
The biggest problem these console teams have is this saying, "We want our racing sim (insert name here) to be as realistic as possible but yet accesible at the same time".
Unfortunately that's one thing that can't be done.
You can't create a simulation that's supposed to be realistically and accurately portraying racing in real life then go and dumb it down so that the "console" crowd can have a "sim" to.
If i'm going into next-gen zone, all of the console teams making racing sims had better step up or i just won't bother, as i'm tired of wanting a sim on a console and not being given one.
BOTH Enthusia and GT4 have their flaws but Enthusia'a first time game was better to me than GT4's fourth time attempt.

 

[viperpilot]

"Others will think exactly the opposite (that GT4 is the one that "feels" closer to reality). And I don't mind that, as long as everyone gets what they want."

that's exactly the main point!! and as mentioned before, for reality-feeling i switch to EPR and if i just want to drive or for 300mph-stuff i switch to GT4. so both of my likings get what they want.

viper

 

[JasBird]

The subject of high speed lift and EPRs lack of it, is a different issue and a major one at that. You get no feeling of reduced steering effect or lift in EPR and it is a major flaw.

I find it quite the opposite when it comes to reduced steering effect, especially when driving FF cars. That's one of the reason I think it's fun driving the Nurburgring in EPR, because in the high speed corners the respons from the front get's a reduced. When I drive FF cars in EPR I always feel like I reveal the weakness of the FF car, because you have to work the front all the time and you feel the tires being overworked.

Additionally EPR allows you to take huge liberties in regard to braking and steering into a corner and the understeer penalties that simple don't occur.

I agree with this, but like I said earlier atleast with EPR the car will go more out of the corner, or more straight ahead compared to GT4. For me in GT4 when using the brake, it doesn't affect your directional control. In Forza this is noticed even more, where braking in the corner creates an even higher penalty, pushing you straight. Then again maybe my technique just sucks.

If you start with GT4 and try and brake into the last corner at Tsukuba and do the same entering Hatzenbach (the first right turn after the short straight with the left kink?). If you try the same in EPR afterwards you will notice the difference. I always end out in the gravel, until I get readjusted. I'm not talking about setting the car up for a slide, it's just when you try and make a small reduction of speed with the brake and the intention is not to get the car in a big slide.

Gotta love these discussions.

Keep up the good work boys. 👍

Bullitt73

 

[viperpilot]

jip, understeering is more noticeable in EPR, but i think for example, if i drive the Opel Corsa in GT4 i can play with the understeering (especially with my DFP), but in EPR, i'm a bit afraid of understeering because it has more effect on the driving-line than in GT4.

viper

 

[Scaff]

I find it quite the opposite when it comes to reduced steering effect, especially when driving FF cars. That's one of the reason I think it's fun driving the Nurburgring in EPR, because in the high speed corners the respons from the front get's a reduced. When I drive FF cars in EPR I always feel like I reveal the weakness of the FF car, because you have to work the front all the time and you feel the tires being overworked.

It may be the way in which I explained it, but thats not what I am refering to. In the real world at speeds above (approx) 100mph the lift generated will effect the feel of the car. This is less notiacable in FWD cars (as the have more static weight over the front-end), but noticable in RWD, and very noticable in RR and MR layouts.

The steering actually gets vague and in the worst cases you can actually turn the wheel and it have no effect. A great real world example of this was the Ford GT40 Le Mans car, drivers of the car have said that along the Mulsanne Straight you could apply a half turn of lock without the car changing direction. No surprise when you find out that the MkIV GT40 created 318lbs of lift at 220mph and computer modelling that was done for the Ford GT development showed that the car would have become airborne at 230mph.

Almost all road cars develop lift of this nature (very few road cars actually develop true downforce, at best they will reduce lift), for example a VW Beetle (modern one) develops 742lbs of lift @ 124 mph (curb weight of 2884lbs). Even the Audi TT after the work to reduce the problem of lift at speed (the cause of a number of accidents) still develops 386lbs of lift @ 150mph (curb weight 3054lbs).

The effect of lift of this nature will be very evident to anyone who has driven a car in excess of 100-150 mph, in EPR you can hammer the Bettle along the straight at the 'ring at 120+mph and it feels as stable as at 50mph.

GT4 still does not get this right either, but it is better at recreating it.

I agree with this, but like I said earlier atleast with EPR the car will go more out of the corner, or more straight ahead compared to GT4. For me in GT4 when using the brake, it doesn't affect your directional control. In Forza this is noticed even more, where braking in the corner creates an even higher penalty, pushing you straight. Then again maybe my technique just sucks.

If you start with GT4 and try and brake into the last corner at Tsukuba and do the same entering Hatzenbach (the first right turn after the short straight with the left kink?). If you try the same in EPR afterwards you will notice the difference. I always end out in the gravel, until I get readjusted. I'm not talking about setting the car up for a slide, it's just when you try and make a small reduction of speed with the brake and the intention is not to get the car in a big slide.

Strange because I don't agree with that, I've tried this with many cars in EPR and the best (or is that worst) example is the old Mini. Take one to any of the wet tracks and brake hard and apply full steering lock, the car should go straight off, but it doesn't.

Or take a FWD car to Tskuba and at the last hairpin wait until the car is about halfway around and the weight has shifted to the rear, then open the throttle right up. What should happen is cronic understeer, instead you get mild understeer that if you are very unlucky will make the car run slightly wide.

In regard to Forza, its one of the few areas I really like on it, turn off the ABS and you have to really think about the front tyres when braking into a corner. EPR and GT4 could well have done with this.

Gotta love these discussions.

Keep up the good work boys. 👍

Bullitt73

Quite agree with that, great fun.

Regards

Scaff

 

[viperpilot]

you're right about the lift Scaff, i have to admit that i've never driven a RWD-car, but it should be a little bit like a "wheelie", the front tyres loose grip because all the weight shifts to the back and pushes the back down and the front goes up.
the only time you can get this feeling is in GT4 at 300mph-driving i think....correct me if i'm wrong.

viper

 

[Scaff]

you're right about the lift Scaff, i have to admit that i've never driven a RWD-car, but it should be a little bit like a "wheelie", the front tyres loose grip because all the weight shifts to the back and pushes the back down and the front goes up.
the only time you can get this feeling is in GT4 at 300mph-driving i think....correct me if i'm wrong.

viper

With the DS2 I would agree the feel is limited to the very high speed, with a DFP (or DF) it does appear to show at lower speeds. First looked at this a while ago with the New Beetle at the 'ring.

Ran the car in both GT4 and EPR and at v-max (about 125-130mph IIRC) GT4 definatly felt slightly 'looser' in the steering than EPR. Its not a massive difference, and both are far less than you feel in the real world.

Regards

Scaff

 

[viperpilot]

i expect, that you've made that test with the cars stock or am i wrong? and the new bettle not RSi?for 300mph i use only the DS2, but even there you can feel the "looseness" of the front tires, if you have to less front-downforce.

viper