Online Meeting (PAL)

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Holdenhsvgtsr
again ive always been in front of you unless you have some form of proof,which i think is the same for everyone else,people say ive been on while i have proof i was doing other things at said time,unless they have some form of proof (which i seriously doubt) and that ive been dirty driving although no doubt they are just annoyed because i dont "move off the racing line to let them past" just because they are tagged players :rolleyes: and as you said youve raced me 2/3 times in which every time i was in front of you(hell i even STARTED in front of you) and dont call me dude....
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dude, Listen to yourself a bit.. or take a long deep look in the mirror. Or something.. you really need it. You remind me one people I know who just enjoys arguing for the sake of it. At first I was getting mad at you because of your driving and posting... no I'm beginning to really just feel sorry for you.

And taking proof for you.. my guess is that very few people will prove anything for you... Pretty much everyone who has posted here about your driving has seen, and felt it themselves (I am). If you want us to prove something, are you then suggesting that we are lying? Or don't we just understand each others?

I will add you as a friend in PSN tomorrow, and then we can race together. And you can count on it that those races will be recorded. I hope you are willing to do this. Let's prove together that YOU are RIGHT! And THEY were WRONG! How about that?

-Timo
 
Holdenhsvgtsr
again ive always been in front of you unless you have some form of proof,which i think is the same for everyone else,people say ive been on while i have proof i was doing other things at said time,unless they have some form of proof (which i seriously doubt) and that ive been dirty driving although no doubt they are just annoyed because i dont "move off the racing line to let them past" just because they are tagged players :rolleyes: and as you said youve raced me 2/3 times in which every time i was in front of you(hell i even STARTED in front of you) and dont call me dude....
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Dude theres no need to go crazy about it... c'mon its not a big deal
Dude the proof is witnesses :sly:
Also dude prove that you were always in front of me.


HAHA I also found another punter

thane67 anyone know?
I was drifting at the back, he like spun at first corner and then shunts me when drifting past him haha (hes in a F40 too) then for 2 laps he tries again and again plus he eats a lot of sand :dopey:
 
I have never met Holdenhsvgtsr on the track so I have no comment but I have met many drivers that fit the same driving description, like a driver called djanardana[RU] keep away from him.
 
so when was the last time you raced on Gt5 AMD.
accusations and accusations, without evidence people there's nothing you could really do about this. I've raced with AMD a few times but never been blocked or punted but in the same race seen what alot of people are saying about you, I think GTP_Hun experienced some of this as did Cominatcha in the same few races that I witnessed.
 
I have raced Holdenhsvgtsr. Really quite a lot - I'd guess somewhere between 30 and 60 races in 2 days. Here. If he is able to, I would welcome driving against him again.

Granted LAN isn't the same as Online but, frankly, if he's the driver online people are claiming, you'd imagine that there'd be some evidence of it in LAN - and he wouldn't waste the time and money to come to us, daan wouldn't waste the time and money driving him there and back and the rest of us wouldn't waste the time and money to drive with him. The DVDs from the event all had a flaw (they were green because we didn't notice the PS2 was set to YPbPr) but I can dig out some of Holden's LAN driving if anyone wishes to see it. It won't prove that he's not a dirty online racer - some people can be different in their PS3 rooms to how they are in public - but it will back up what I've said above if needed.

Incidentally, if it isn't white, it's not Holdenhsvgtsr.


All this aside, the sheer number of personal attacks in this thread is staggering. Does the AUP not apply to online racing?

No personal attacks on other members will be tolerated. If you question someone, it must be done in a reasonable and semi-friendly manner. Violating this rule will be grounds for suspension and/or permanent removal from the board.
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About a week back some amongst us started something similar about a driver called "GTP_Captainslow".

It turned out that GTP_Captainslow, like others have started doing, videos all of his races. And he made this post.

Chadwicksracing apologised immediately, to his credit. Would he have done so if GTP_Captainslow had made a post without video evidence to back it up? Would he have even needed to if he'd remembered the AUP in the first place?


It is depressing that people are needing to record all of their races in order to prove they aren't cheats. It's even more depressing that this is about the only thing that'll shut people up. If three people with GTP_ tags claimed I had rammed them off the track on Friday, would I be a cheat? My PS3 has been in a box in the corner of the room for 10 days, when I drove 230 miles with a packed car behind a LWB van containing the rest of my possessions as I moved house, but apparently this wouldn't be good enough to prevent me having insults hurled at me...


It'd be good if we could all keep a sense of perspective here. Captainslow's video showed that what YOU think might be happening isn't necessarily what your opponent is doing - Chadwicksracing thought he was hitting him on purpose, Captainslow's video showed he wasn't. We have the UK's dreadful DSL network to thank for that. With that in mind, taking the position that YOU are right and your opponent is a moron and questioning the presence of their genitals is ludicrous - as well as specifically against the AUP.
 
Famine
I have raced Holdenhsvgtsr. Really quite a lot - I'd guess somewhere between 30 and 60 races in 2 days. Here. If he is able to, I would welcome driving against him again.

Granted LAN isn't the same as Online but, frankly, if he's the driver online people are claiming, you'd imagine that there'd be some evidence of it in LAN - and he wouldn't waste the time and money to come to us, daan wouldn't waste the time and money driving him there and back and the rest of us wouldn't waste the time and money to drive with him. The DVDs from the event all had a flaw (they were green because we didn't notice the PS2 was set to YPbPr) but I can dig out some of Holden's LAN driving if anyone wishes to see it. It won't prove that he's not a dirty online racer - some people can be different in their PS3 rooms to how they are in public - but it will back up what I've said above if needed.

Incidentally, if it isn't white, it's not Holdenhsvgtsr.


All this aside, the sheer number of personal attacks in this thread is staggering. Does the AUP not apply to online racing?


About a week back some amongst us started something similar about a driver called "GTP_Captainslow".

It turned out that GTP_Captainslow, like others have started doing, videos all of his races. And he made this post.

Chadwicksracing apologised immediately, to his credit. Would he have done so if GTP_Captainslow had made a post without video evidence to back it up? Would he have even needed to if he'd remembered the AUP in the first place?


It is depressing that people are needing to record all of their races in order to prove they aren't cheats. It's even more depressing that this is about the only thing that'll shut people up. If three people with GTP_ tags claimed I had rammed them off the track on Friday, would I be a cheat? My PS3 has been in a box in the corner of the room for 10 days, when I drove 230 miles with a packed car behind a LWB van containing the rest of my possessions as I moved house, but apparently this wouldn't be good enough to prevent me having insults hurled at me...


It'd be good if we could all keep a sense of perspective here. Captainslow's video showed that what YOU think might be happening isn't necessarily what your opponent is doing - Chadwicksracing thought he was hitting him on purpose, Captainslow's video showed he wasn't. We have the UK's dreadful DSL network to thank for that. With that in mind, taking the position that YOU are right and your opponent is a moron and questioning the presence of their genitals is ludicrous - as well as specifically against the AUP.
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I can see your point here. And this never should have gone this far. But I would like to hear what do you say about the driving ethics that Holden has openly addmitted to follow in GT5P ONLINE:



Holdenhsvgtsr
Im guessing that was ether at 130R,the first corner or degner which i have posted several times i do not like anyone overtaking me into those corners so i will block/not let anyone passed at those.

Most people i race seem to know this and do not overtake me on those corners.
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Holdenhsvgtsr
Exactly like i said i will block/not let anyone passed on the appoarch to the braking area of those corners.
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Holdenhsvgtsr
Call it dirty if you want but i have clearly stated i dont like being overtaken in these corners and what would happen if anyone does so if you chose to ignore that then thats your problem because ive clearly let everyone know and its because 9 times out of 10 my evo is faster than anyone else through those corners and if anyone overtakes me there and because the evos brakes are made of chocolate i used to end up rear ending people off hence why i now ask people not to overtake me those corners.

At the starts i do that because i have been rammed and i do know what its like so thats why i move to the inside of the first corner as quickly as i can and i dont see how you can comment on me racing at daytona since ive never raced online there :confused:
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Someone commented Holden for his driving style, politely, the answer was:

Holdenhsvgtsr
Nothing wrong with it
thumbupio3.gif


If you cant make a clean pass or play fair then im more than happy to return the favour.
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For me the additude did become a problem. Now I've passed that phase already. I agree that this was wrong place to deal with it.

And I do agree you on that one could change his behaviour LAN / ONLINE.. I guess it's just human nature. Don't say that Holden has done this, because I've only seen the ethics he follows on ONLINE.

-Timo
 
@ Famine:

I will postpone my personal judgement on Holdenhsvgtsrs driving for when I actually meet him online. Nevertheless, I must question someones attitude when he states that there are corners where he doesn't like to be overtaken, and will take measures to prevent people from trying.

And when quite a number of people I have been driving with and that all proved to be very clean racers congruently state that they have encountered unfair driving by Holdenhsvgtsr in different situations and races, I have a hard time not to believe them. The fact alone that I don't see a single reason a group of members from different countries and even different forums would gang up on a single driver for no reason keeps me in doubt about his statements. Nevertheless, I will treat him as fairly as everybody else, should I ever meet him online.

Also, the fun stopped when Holdenhsvgtsr put the following statement into his signature, as I just learned today:

GTRP- Gran Turismo Rammers & Punters :rolleyes:

Even if he is completely innocent as he says, that clearly is not appropriate. Therefore, I continue to question his loyalty for clean online racing.
 
We have a whole, somewhat sordid, thread on what acceptable online behaviour is. Some amongst us feel that anything goes. Some feel that only clean driving is the way to go. Some will return, sometimes with interest, that which is visited upon them.

So long as it's not the first option, I don't have a problem with it. Given that I will defend a host's choice to quit if he is being rammed, I won't be in a hurry to condemn someone for smacking into someone that punted them. Neither is necessarily an example of what I would do (nor should one infer that I either would or would not do either).


I don't particularly see anything wrong with defending your position in corners - you quote Holden saying he would block at 130R and the Degners. Defending your position is one of the skill sets required to be successful. Why should a driver in front of you cede his position to you easily? So long as he's not taking you out, turning in on you while you're alongside or blocking on the straights, it doesn't sound particularly censurable to me.

the Interceptor
Nevertheless, I must question someones attitude when he states that there are corners where he doesn't like to be overtaken, and will take measures to prevent people from trying.
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As above.

If we're just going to let people past based on how fast they are, we may as well line up fastest-to-slowest and not bother with the race. If you want my position you're going to have to work for it - and I would personally kill for a race composed of 16 drivers like that with no thoughts of ramming. Some of the best LAN races I've had ended with me not being able to fairly take a position from a clean driver ahead of me.
 
Although it is not my style of driving, I can live with someone who blocks me to prevent me from overtaking. But when people start talking about being brake-checked, rammed and pushed off the track, I must ask for the definition of the term "blocking". Also, I'd like to hear your opinion on my other statements.
Famine
If we're just going to let people past based on how fast they are, we may as well line up fastest-to-slowest and not bother with the race. If you want my position you're going to have to work for it - and I would personally kill for a race composed of 16 drivers like that with no thoughts of ramming. Some of the best LAN races I've had ended with me not being able to fairly take a position from a clean driver ahead of me.
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I absolutely agree, but those races only work because those faster drivers know when to block and when to leave a bit of space to prevent a collision. Now for me personally, Holden sounds like he's going to block either way, and if that should lead to a collision, it is the other drivers fault, because he knew Holden would block him there.
 
the Interceptor
Although it is not my style of driving, I can live with someone who blocks me to prevent me from overtaking. But when people start talking about being brake-checked, rammed and pushed off the track, I must ask for the definition of the term "blocking". Also, I'd like to hear your opinion on my other statements.
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It is not for me to comment on activities I haven't seen - nor should anyone else. But I'll cite the GTP_Captainslow example again (and in response to this):

the Interceptor
The fact alone that I don't see a single reason a group of members from different countries and even different forums would gang up on a single driver for no reason keeps me in doubt about his statements.
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Two members - and doubtless it would have been more if not for Captainslow's quick response - chose to "gang up on a single driver" for what, with corroborative video evidence, proved to be no reason. Their observational evidence was without merit since, at the end of the driver in question, the activites they observed didn't tally with that the driver was doing. That's not to say they didn't see what they think they saw - I have no reason to think that Chadwicksracing or Beerz are liars (and Beerz and I have played online at CoD4) - but that what their screens were showing Captainslow doing wasn't necessarily what Captainslow was doing.


All we have to go on is observational evidence. We see GTP_Tom, GTP_Dick and GTP_Harry boinking into us - but they might not see the same thing. It's one of the downsides of online gaming, especially in the UK where our DSL network is absolute bobbins. It's pretty easy to mistake hard driving for bad driving when the guy in front turns in on you, but he might genuinely not have seen you...

the Interceptor
I absolutely agree, but those races only work because those faster drivers know when to block and when to leave a bit of space to prevent a collision. Now for me personally, Holden sounds like he's going to block either way, and if that should lead to a collision, it is the other drivers fault, because he knew Holden would block him there.
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If you're attempting to pass in a corner and a collision occurs, the only way it won't be your fault is if the driver in front turns into you. Unless any part of you is alongside any part of them (and real life motorsport rules would say that the whole of you must be alongside the whole of them), they do not have to give you any space at all. It's your responsibility to make the pass, not the lead driver's.


As for Holden's sig comment about GTRP (which I haven't seen, though Timppaq provides a quote)... I'd guess that he's observed some GTRP drivers driving badly and formed an opinion from that. It strikes me as a little odd that people will react badly to that while, at the same time, posting their opinion of him having seen him driving badly. That said, it's obviously not cool to paint all members of GTRP with the same brush - any more than it is to say the same of GTP_ members, or Elise/Tuned drivers, or [ES] drivers, as has been done in the past - especially given GTRP's long history in OLR prior to GT5P and he's obviously removed it from his signature.


So. With all that said and done... No personal attacks. No speculation about what you'll do to a driver if you see them. If you think someone is being a horse's arse, message them on the console or, in the case of GTP_ drivers, here at GTP (copying it to a mod - Sphinx particularly). And if you want to openly accuse someone in public, a video will go a long way (or you may end up looking a bit silly when provide a video of their own).
 
Lots of typing eh?

Im only saying dont do it again. Im not trying to make enemies why bother.
Sorry If I mad you amgry or somthing. :sly:

People make mistakes and we shouuld forgive or something like that :dopey:
 
Famine
Two members - and doubtless it would have been more if not for Captainslow's quick response - chose to "gang up on a single driver" for what, with corroborative video evidence, proved to be no reason. Their observational evidence was without merit since, at the end of the driver in question, the activites they observed didn't tally with that the driver was doing. That's not to say they didn't see what they think they saw - I have no reason to think that Chadwicksracing or Beerz are liars (and Beerz and I have played online at CoD4) - but that what their screens were showing Captainslow doing wasn't necessarily what Captainslow was doing.
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I have experienced similar things at times, which later turned out to be due to online lag. However, questionable actions usually have a certain pattern to themselves and, should they occur due to online lag, will most likely be distinguishable by the experienced online player. Given the high number, the nature and the time frame of said actions that were reported, I have my doubts they all are down to a bad connection.
Famine
If you're attempting to pass in a corner and a collision occurs, the only way it won't be your fault is if the driver in front turns into you. Unless any part of you is alongside any part of them (and real life motorsport rules would say that the whole of you must be alongside the whole of them), they do not have to give you any space at all. It's your responsibility to make the pass, not the lead driver's.
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No objection from me here. But even if the responsibility of the maneuvre is with the overtaking driver, it's hard to argue for the driver being overtaken that the crash always was the other persons fault, because the leading driver said in advance that he won't accept being overtaken in certain parts of the track. I'm reminded of a certain Michael Schumacher, driving into the side of Jaques Villeneuve and Damon Hill to prevent them from becoming F1 world champions - not exactly magic moments of good sportsmanship.
Famine
As for Holden's sig comment about GTRP (which I haven't seen, though Timppaq provides a quote)... I'd guess that he's observed some GTRP drivers driving badly and formed an opinion from that.
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In my eyes, the reason was that the GTRP members Pappa and hannes11 openly complained about Holdens driving just after an online race. Holden demanded proof for that, stating that hannes11 would be "out to get me ever since i complained about him". A discussion came up, and while a number of people (including me) stated that they have solely met hannes11 as a fair and clean driver, Holden insisted that he was after him. The signature seemed to be a result of that.
 
Allow me to defend myself..Because I look like the bad guy.

Chadwicksracing apologised immediately, to his credit. Would he have done so if GTP_Captainslow had made a post without video evidence to back it up? Would he have even needed to if he'd remembered the AUP in the first place?
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Even if he hadn't posted that video..and said sorry man, i have a laggy connection. I didn't try to take you out.. I would have said its 'alright' and still apologized. I am pretty easy going, and I do look at things logically.. I didn't ask for video evidence, nor did I expect to have it.

Things got way out of hand... when 'things' are going down they are so much more dramatized. I had never meet GTP_Captainslow! I don't just trust anyone right off the bat. I didn't know if he was upset or not when I slide into him.. I wasn't using my GTP tag. I was using 'Racecleanstupid'.

I have seen how 'some' GTP members treat non-GTP racers. Yes the bias ones.. I thought he was just racing me like the CPU.

So back to the point of this: When a racing incident goes down, it is dramatic for a few mins, and when its a GTP..its even more serious. I overracted plain and simple. I am sorry it happened and I did retract my statements toward Captainslow.

Chad
 
@Holdenhsvgtsr, What was your PSN ID, if you don't mind me asking?

edit: And while you're on it, could you please answer the questions presented to you (including me)?
 
RyanGee
That was a fun race Beerz and RudiRaser 👍
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Yes it was, really enjoyed it. :cheers:
Like I said on the message, sorry for that incident braking for turn 1.


EDIT: Ah, ok. Thanks, mate. 👍
 
the Interceptor
I have experienced similar things at times, which later turned out to be due to online lag. However, questionable actions usually have a certain pattern to themselves and, should they occur due to online lag, will most likely be distinguishable by the experienced online player. Given the high number, the nature and the time frame of said actions that were reported, I have my doubts they all are down to a bad connection.
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As stated, I haven't seen any of these events, so it's not within my boundaries to comment on them.

the Interceptor
No objection from me here. But even if the responsibility of the maneuvre is with the overtaking driver, it's hard to argue for the driver being overtaken that the crash always was the other persons fault, because the leading driver said in advance that he won't accept being overtaken in certain parts of the track. I'm reminded of a certain Michael Schumacher, driving into the side of Jaques Villeneuve and Damon Hill to prevent them from becoming F1 world champions - not exactly magic moments of good sportsmanship.
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Hence why I stated "If you're attempting to pass in a corner and a collision occurs, the only way it won't be your fault is if the driver in front turns into you.". Exactly what Schumacher did to both drivers.

the Interceptor
In my eyes, the reason was that the GTRP members Pappa and hannes11 openly complained about Holdens driving just after an online race. Holden demanded proof for that, stating that hannes11 would be "out to get me ever since i complained about him". A discussion came up, and while a number of people (including me) stated that they have solely met hannes11 as a fair and clean driver, Holden insisted that he was after him. The signature seemed to be a result of that.
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Again, I have not witnessed any of this.

However, permit me to posit. Driver 1 collides with CLAN_Driver 2. Driver 1 did not intend the collision, but it happened anyway. CLAN_Driver 2 believes it was deliberate. CLAN_Driver 2's personal ethics are to return this favour with interest.

Now you have a situation where Driver 1 is dirty in CLAN_Driver 2's mind - for deliberately ramming him - and CLAN_Driver 2 is dirty in Driver 1's mind - for repeatedly ramming him back.

Enter Drivers 3 and 4. They are CLAN_Driver 2's friends and have seen what CLAN_Driver 2 had to say about Driver 1. CLAN_Driver 3 is put in a race with Driver 1 and pre-emptively takes him out. Later, CLAN_Driver 4 is put in a race with Driver 1 and also pre-emptively takes him out.

Now you have a situation where Driver 1 is dirty in CLAN_Driver 2, 3 & 4's minds - for deliberately ramming CLAN_Driver 2 a week ago - and every member of CLAN is dirty in Driver 1's mind - for repeatedly ramming him whenever he encounters them.


Net result - one accidental collision results in accusation and counter-accusation.

Chadwicksracing
Allow me to defend myself..Because I look like the bad guy.
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Not my intention. The fact that you apologised immediately is a tacit acknowledgement that you were in the wrong initially. If anything, this should make you the good guy.
 
Seems he wont answer any questions himself and instead just send a personal mod friend in to make excuses for him or try and salvage some dignity .. what a load of tripe! 👎

So many people from all different forums must be wrong about this guy?
yeah right :lol: ... totally convinced here :dopey:

The bad UK connection is the culprit hahaha! lmao ;)
 
Famine
Net result - one accidental collision results in accusation and counter-accusation.
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There's no doubt that such things can quickly get out of hand, even if the actual incident was an accident. However, there are plenty of ways to get the truth across quickly (PS3 PM, forum PM, apologies thread). Nevertheless, I never saw Holden apologize to anyone for anything. The only thing I always saw was:

member X: why did you do XXX to me on turn XXX?
Holdenhsvgtsr: do you have proof that I did that?

If I just missed an actual apology, I'm glad to stand corrected on the spot. Knock me out!
 
Mr P
Seems he wont answer any questions himself and instead just send a personal mod friend in to make excuses for him or try and salvage some dignity .. what a load of tripe! 👎

So many people from all different forums must be wrong about this guy?
yeah right :lol: ... totally convinced here :dopey:

The bad UK connection is the culprit hahaha! lmao ;)
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I havent even meantioned anything to Famine about this,the last time i had spoke to famine via pm was over a week ago about a completely unrelated topic,the only mod i have spoke to in the last week since then was Touring_Mars :rolleyes:

I have never posted my psn on this forum or any other forum for that matter so i dont see why i need to post it now and that people are wanting me to add them to my "friends" list which i will not add people to as i dont know them (no offence to Timppaq but your friend request will be declined as i do not know you therefore dont see why i should add you to my psn friends list) only gtp member i have on my psn is donk as we were discussing evo setups a while ago.

Rather surprised at you Mr_P considering when i first started racing online i enjoyed racing you and never had any deal with you,in fact when you hadnt been online for a while i even posted wondering where you were as i used to enjoy racing you.
 

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