Opinions on the Scion Tc and other cars.

[skip0110]

Handles like a yacht, eh? Sheesh, I better keep a close eye on my keys, I didn't know people were off driving my own personal car while I wasn't looking!

I don't need to steal your keys to know how a 3-ton, 300ish hp FWD car is going to handle. While it's cool that you are doing the "shade tree mechanic" thing and fixing up what you have, don't think that you've somehow turned it into a Ferrari by taking out the carpet and putting rims and tires on it.

 

[cobragt]

About everyone on the streets in my city has a civic, riced out or just normal. I even see riced out accords so a civic si is a no for me. It looks good but like I said, everyone has one. One thing I love about the tc is, you can't hotwire it, I imagine my insurance could be lesser with the tc than my current lancer, who knows? I'm thinking the WRX wagon but it's auto! I test drove a Lancer Ralliart, o man that kills the Tc and is comparable to the Sentra Spec R but it looks like my current lancer which isnt bad but I wouldnt mind a change. On my search for a new car, I came across a Is300, has 30k miles on it and is selling for 19k. Opinions on the Is300?

 

[194GVan]

Lexus's are nice cars. Im not sure how much the IS usually goes for, but stick shift + rwd + NA supra motor = a good time.

The Scion tC is alright, my girlfriend has one, 5 speed and completely stock. The torquey 4 cylinder is nice (basically a camry 2.4l), and its not a bad car, but it just feels like its trying to be a sports car when it really isnt. Its probably a nice platform for upgrading, but in stock trim it really isnt all that.

 

[Tornado]

But as far as mechanical things weighing more than luxury items, I beg to differ. The eight way power adjustable seats in my car weigh nearly 100lbs, each. I could swap in a 4WD system with a 5 speed manual and it would weigh less than what my automatic transmission weighs. There's simply no way to make a GT-R look better - They weigh alot, get over it. That's why they have tons of horsepower and 4WD.

Do you know how asinine of a comment that is? The retooling for the rear axle alone, not even adding the driveshaft or half shafts, would add 75-100 lbs. All combined the 4WD system without an active diff (or even any diff) would probably add 250 lbs. With a fully active diff. and 4WS, there is no way even conceivable that that statement would be true. Even the 4WS system adds about 100-200 lbs by itself typically. Ask, Honda, GMC, Toyota, Nissan, etc.
In addition, all recent GT-R's weigh roughly the same as a typical Corvette C5. With a heavier engine. And (far, far) more technology. Not to mention the fact that you consider 280 BHP to be a ton of power. Even if they had that much (which you know that they had more, because everyone knows that they did), considering that you can buy a 13 year old Camaro that put out similar power figures, weighed around the same and would be destroyed on any track the two competed on, it doesn't say much for the validity of your arguements or any of the things you are using to support them.

 

[cobragt]

problem with the is300 is it was in several accidents according to carfax, thats why its so cheap. I know normal is300 run from 26k.

 

[Ghost C]

I don't need to steal your keys to know how a 3-ton, 300ish hp FWD car is going to handle. While it's cool that you are doing the "shade tree mechanic" thing and fixing up what you have, don't think that you've somehow turned it into a Ferrari by taking out the carpet and putting rims and tires on it.

First... Three ton? Are you really that stupid? If you believe I've just pulled out some carpet and put rims on my car, you must be.

Second, shade tree? Say what? I have a business license and own a legitimate company - Don't ever insult my integrity without knowing the facts again.

Okay, fine, so the heavy, overrated, ugly Japanese coupe you hate so much outaccelerates the 400hp Cadillac CTS-V with a mere 280hp.

Last I remember, 4.7 seconds (the absolute fastest 0-60 time I could find for any Skyline on Google) was not faster than 4.6 seconds. Of course it's going to accelerate really fast from a dead stop, that's what 4WD is for. The gap opens up fairly well in the 0-100mph contest.

Do you know how asinine of a comment that is? The retooling for the rear axle alone, not even adding the driveshaft or half shafts, would add 75-100 lbs. All combined the 4WD system without an active diff (or even any diff) would probably add 250 lbs. With a fully active diff. and 4WS, there is no way even conceivable that that statement would be true. Even the 4WS system adds about 100-200 lbs by itself typically.

Finished? Ok - The transmission in my car, not counting the flexplate or torque converter, weighs 186lbs. The transmission I'd use to convert to 4WD weighs about 70 (I know this because I have one). Taking into account all of the electronic and hydraulic lines, fittings, and controllers that would be totally unneeded with a manual (Including TWO transmission coolers), I'm looking at saving over 150lbs on the front end. The back end of the system might weigh 100lbs (That's the axles and the diff), I'll weigh it in sometime. Now, since I have to have a custom driveshaft made in the first place, it's going to be something expensive and lightweight...

Now, as I said, I could switch to a 4WD layout with a 5 speed, and it would weigh less than my FWD automatic transmission. Never said I'd use active differentials or four wheel steering, did I?

Ask, Honda, GMC, Toyota, Nissan, etc.
In addition, all recent GT-R's weigh roughly the same as a typical Corvette C5. With a heavier engine. And (far, far) more technology. Not to mention the fact that you consider 280 BHP to be a ton of power.

Ok, how many cars, in REAL LIFE, have you driven with more than 300 horsepower? Because I have driven and gotten track rides in cars with upwards of 800hp, and it still doesn't change the fact that 280 is alot.

Even if they had that much (which you know that they had more, because everyone knows that they did),

I do? Damn, someone really needs to fill me in! First people are driving my car without me knowing, and now people are telling me I know stuff that I actually don't!

considering that you can buy a 13 year old Camaro that put out similar power figures, weighed around the same and would be destroyed on any track the two competed on, it doesn't say much for the validity of your arguements or any of the things you are using to support them.

Camaros sucked, big deal. They're meant for going really fast in a straight line, and they do it very well.

Any of my... Arguments? I never started this whole mess - Someone got offended by a quote in my signature meant as a joke. I simply stated that it's funny because it's true - The Skyline does weigh alot. My car weighs alot. Over 3,000lbs is alot.

What the hell am I using to support my arguments, anyway? All I've been saying the whole time is that the Skyline weighs alot and people need to get over it.

 

[YSSMAN]

problem with the is300 is it was in several accidents according to carfax, thats why its so cheap. I know normal is300 run from 26k.

You probably arent going to want to go with that one then...

You would probably be better off looking for a used BMW 325il if youre looking for a small sport sedan. Although they are not the cheapest cars on the used car market, later models are built exceptionally well, and still manage to outperform the IS300.

 

[McLaren]

Oh great. A perfect circuit to explore how bad American cars do in tight corners. Thats why Modena lost, remember....? Its AWD biased, I tell you. If the Mid-engined Modena couldnt even beat the others, then of course Corvette will lose. .

There's more to a car than its marque and power and fame.
When people hear 360 against Corvette, people will automatically say Ferrari wins (unless they know better).

2nd, American cars may not handle as well as others, but they do handle turns (ex. SRT-10 Coupe, C6 (Z06), GT, MT900S, etc.) very well. It was most likely, the wrong type of Vette model to run (like the Modena). If they had run a C5 Z06, or Challenge Stradale, odds are, we would have had a MUCH different score.

Check out a Mosler MT900S. They may not have been around during this test (and most likely would have destroyed the comp. with the 600Hp option), but with its stock 400Hp engine, I'm sure it could have really gave these cars a run for their money.


Sorry for the OT.

 

[JCE]

My buddy has a Mazda 3i sedan, 2.0L, 150hp, ~150lb/ft, $15,000, 5 speed, and it'll stick with a Tc with the factory supercharger with ~200hp and a closer ratio 6 speed. It'll match the Tc until about 80 mph. So don't get a Tc.
Tell you the truth, I'd recommend a 3s (the hatch in particular). It's relatively inexpensive, looks great, is built well and with high quality materials, is reliable, very fun to drive, and there are plenty of tuning parts out there, and more than the 3 sedan, which is why I recommend the hatch. It's practical, can hold five people and their stuff, will stay cool for a while, all that good stuff. Did I mention that a place called www.hiboost.com has a turbo kit with everything you'd need for installation--intercooler, nuts and bolts, plumbing, etc.--for $3,800? Ups the power to ~230 and is reliable. The site has a bunch of videos of the same 3s running quarter miles and stuff like that. It's the same car, so you can see that it works after all that punishment.
That's why I recommend a not-raved-about-enough Mazda 3s hatch. If you have over 20 grand to play with, you'll have plenty left over for modifications.

Yes, the Mazda3 hatch is fantastic and could easily get seriously fast with some mods. The look on the faces of Mustang GT owners when you pass them in a Mazda3 would be priceless.

 

[JCE]

problem with the is300 is it was in several accidents according to carfax, thats why its so cheap. I know normal is300 run from 26k.

Do not get an IS300, the insurance rates on that car are higher than a Corvette and 350Z--which are high themselves.

 

[cobragt]

why would insurance on a is300 be so high? Only 5 more years till I'm 25 and I'll get a rx-10

 

[cobragt]

I actually like the look of the mazda 3. The sedan looks great, so does the hatch.
edit
guys, I might try the Mazda 3. It looks great, and comes with 160hp. That's about the same as the Tc and I can get it for 1k cheaper.

 

[niky]

Great handling, too. Plus, there's bound to be lots of aftermarket support for the 2.3 by now.

The SE-Rs are somewhat nice handling, but that rear beam makes at-the-limit behavior somewhat dubious... and don't get a secondhand 03'!!! those things have the defective cats that regurgitate chips into the engine... the engine is sweet, but not very strong if you're looking at modifying it (even better to get the 2.0 SEs... at least those came with SR20s).

----- OFF TOPIC -----

And at the side argument: guys, get a room... one page is okay, but four pages off-topic? Ghost C, from your previous posts elsewhere, I'm pretty sure you don't like Japanese, but lay off, man... ... yes, the GT-R is kind of heavy, yes, it is expensive in the US... but yes, it is a good car.

As for your comments on website accuracy... how about a weight rating you will believe? How about Gran Turismo itself? It lists the heaviest Skyline, the 02' Nur Edition as 3432 lbs... (quite a bit lighter than a stock DeVille's 3600 lbs) pretty far from "supercars.net's" 3900+ listing. I've done a lot of research for articles, and I've found a lot of bull on that site, so I generally don't trust them.

A lot of those huge index sites with nothing else will often copy-paste from each other. Fan sites often get their info from magazines, brochures or straight from the manufacturer, so they're bound to be slightly more accurate. What's ridiculous is other sites just keep copy pasting it... like that "authoritative" list on 0-60 and quarter mile times that everyone seems to like to copy merely because it's so long.

Again, lay off with the Japanese-bashing... it's silly... like the time when you said the new Si was slow because it was only a sub-8 car... when you list yours at 8-flat... (which is likely an estimate, with factory claims for the stock car at just under 10) what's the beef, man?

P.S.: about the kid's comment on page two... "ricer-biased"... that's just lovely!

 

[cobragt]

I'm looking at a 06 3 for like 16k and I can do 210 a month on it, lesser than what I pay on my lancer!

 

[GT4_Rule]

Yeah, the Mazda 3 are really good - they are everywhere now and theres probably lots of mods around. Go for the sedan though, I dont really like the looks of the hatchback; but its your car, so you go with your gut feeling

Nikys comments about the secondhand '03 Sentra Spec-Vs brought back my memory of the problem my friends Sentra had. His Sentra kept blowing its engine after something like 30,000km and they had some sort of forced induction on it, cant remember whether if it was a turbo or supercharger - but yes, it went in to the dealer for repair every half a year it blew its engine before the import tuner show too. Ill put up the photo of that car.



And, Ive been wondering for a looonng time - why is accident cars so bad

 

[niky]

If it's been in an accident, there's a chance of rust forming in spots where welds were done improperly, under bondo and in hard-to-reach-spots.

If it was a bad accident, the frame could be mis-aligned (very tricky b*tch to fix, from experience) and the crash structure could be compromised... you never know... just because it's still straight, doesn't mean it's still as good.

Oh, and if a guy's been in several accidents already, it's a pretty good probability that he didn't take good care of the car in other aspects, too.

As for your friend's Spec, that's the problem with the QR engines... in stock trim, they're fine, but they're not reliable or thick-walled enough for serious modification. A lot of Nissan fanatics were really disappointed with it because of this.

 

[GT4_Rule]

Yeah.

His dad was really disappointed. After spending, like, a lot on that car, he got tired of all the breakdowns so he was planning to sell it. Dont know what happened to it now though since they moved.

 

[Ghost C]

...Snip...

----- OFF TOPIC -----

And at the side argument: guys, get a room... one page is okay, but four pages off-topic? Ghost C, from your previous posts elsewhere, I'm pretty sure you don't like Japanese, but lay off, man... ... yes, the GT-R is kind of heavy, yes, it is expensive in the US... but yes, it is a good car.

I like Japanese cars just fine. Most of the cars I work on are Japanese cars. I also said NOWHERE that the Skyline was a "bad" car, I just said it was heavy. A heavy car is a heavy car, whether it comes from Japan or America or Europe or the outer reaches of the universe.

Yes, the off topic is out of hand, but what can you do?

As for your comments on website accuracy... how about a weight rating you will believe? How about Gran Turismo itself? It lists the heaviest Skyline, the 02' Nur Edition as 3432 lbs... (quite a bit lighter than a stock DeVille's 3600 lbs) pretty far from "supercars.net's" 3900+ listing. I've done a lot of research for articles, and I've found a lot of bull on that site, so I generally don't trust them.

A lot of those huge index sites with nothing else will often copy-paste from each other. Fan sites often get their info from magazines, brochures or straight from the manufacturer, so they're bound to be slightly more accurate. What's ridiculous is other sites just keep copy pasting it... like that "authoritative" list on 0-60 and quarter mile times that everyone seems to like to copy merely because it's so long.

Bad information is bad information, doesn't matter where it comes from, whether it's major websites or little known sites run by fanboys. I don't believe a car's weight until I see it's doortag.

Again, lay off with the Japanese-bashing... it's silly... like the time when you said the new Si was slow because it was only a sub-8 car... when you list yours at 8-flat... (which is likely an estimate, with factory claims for the stock car at just under 10) what's the beef, man?

The new Civic Si is slow because it's got 200hp and weighs like 2,800lbs (Or less) and still manages to pull off 0-60 times above 7 seconds - Consistently. I've raced more than a few of these new Si's, they're slow and overrated. I feel the same way about the SRT-4, Ion Redline, Cobalt SS, and RSX Type S, if that makes you feel any better.

For the record, stock, my car did 0-60 in 8 seconds flat, which btw, was Cadillac's claim when the car came out. A 200hp, 3,603lb car with a 4 speed automatic geared to 195mph at 5,000rpm. My personal car has a power to weight ratio some 8/10ths of a lb-per-hp worse than the Civic Si, yet I manage to outrun all of the afformentioned cars in a foot race to 60.

I think I have a right to bash the Si all day long considering that I can out-engineer Honda with a limited budget and a 15 year old luxury sedan with 196,000 miles on it.

 

[skip0110]

Second, shade tree? Say what? I have a business license and own a legitimate company - Don't ever insult my integrity without knowing the facts again.

As far as I can tell, your buisness is limited to spraying Krylon on exterior/engine parts and replacing the DeVille's intake (which was carefully tuned by GM) with a, um, tube. Your buisness has a freewebs site.

Thats some heavy engineering skill. I'm scared, man. Seriously.

 

[Ghost C]

As far as I can tell, your buisness is limited to spraying Krylon on exterior/engine parts and replacing the DeVille's intake (which was carefully tuned by GM) with a, um, tube. Your buisness has a freewebs site.

Thats some heavy engineering skill. I'm scared, man. Seriously.

To this, I respond...

In every field of human endeavor, he that is first must perpetually live in the white light of publicity. Whether the leadership be vested in a man or in a manufactured product, emulation and envy are ever at work. In art, in literature, in music, in industry, the reward and the punishment are always the same. The reward is widespread recognition; the punishment, fierce denial and detraction. When a man's work becomes a standard for the whole world, it also becomes a target for the shafts of the envious few. If his work be mediocre, he will be left severely alone - if he achieves a masterpiece, it will set a million tongues a -wagging. Jealousy does not protrude its forked tongue at the artist who produces a commonplace painting. Whatsoever you write, or paint, or play, or sing, or build, no one will strive to surpass or to slander you unless your work be stamped with the seal of genius...

 

[STLbarcelona5]

Here's an idea. Subaru 2.5rs coupe (around 2000-2001) and Turbo it. . .

 

[Small_Fryz]

I think I have a right to bash the Si all day long considering that I can out-engineer Honda with a limited budget and a 15 year old luxury sedan with 196,000 miles on it.

Ok, when can i buy one? and how much will it cost?

How many are you producing each year?

when will your car beat a "Honda, engineering" S2000 or NSX?

I could go out and get any minivan, do enough work to it on a little budget and then race and beat your car, does that mean i can now do better engineering than any car i win against?

 

[cobragt]

I think I'm gonna go for the Mazda 3 hatchback for 17k. I'm gonna wait a few months before I get a new car so I know what I really want but there's a great chance of me getting the mazda3 hatchback

 

[Ghost C]

Ok, when can i buy one? and how much will it cost?

How many are you producing each year?

when will your car beat a "Honda, engineering" S2000 or NSX?

I could go out and get any minivan, do enough work to it on a little budget and then race and beat your car, does that mean i can now do better engineering than any car i win against?

I think you misunderstood my point. The new Si has a better power to weight ratio than my car, it has a better transmission setup, it has a stiffer suspension, and it still manages to routinely be slower than my car - Even in magazine tests with professional drivers. Even a stock 1992 DeVille Touring Sedan, with a power to weight ratio above 18lbs per hp still managed to pull off a 7.4 second 0-60 time. That's a tenth or two off of what I see new Si's hitting - That's pathetic. Yes, I can outrun S2000's as well, though I've never had the opportunity to go against an NSX, I'll let you know the results if I ever do.

But, should you want to buy a fully built 91-93 DeVille from me, I'll build it. It'll cost you alot. What do you want it for? Power, handling, looks? Sound system? Specify what you want. And for the record, I don't like inquiries that aren't serious.

 

[xcsti]

To this, I respond...

Really good quote but I don't think even you would call your work genious. I think skip's point was to respond by your demand that he not insult your work without knowing it by demonstrating that there wasn't much to know. Maybe you should have, instead of using a quote which seems a bit pompous, told him that the significance is not in the work but in the results and then mention what cars your car has outrun.

Does your fifteen year old car have to meet with harsh emission, crash and pedestrian crash testing worldwide? The civic is meant to be a performance car but not only in a straight line and has many compromises. You are taking a car laden with luxuries and a heavily restricted engine and removing the restrictions and the weight.

Oh and also your car is an auto with a torque converter which multiplies torque in the low end. That would help in 0-60 times.

Edit: oh and sorry cobragt for the far OT, noone can resist a good arguement/discussion. Mazda 3's are nice cars.

 

[cobragt]

Guys, how about trying to get this
http://cityauto.com/Inventory/Detai...s=&SalesID=&Search=&Sort=PriceD&page=&source=
I would try that but insurance on that for my age

Sometimes I wish I was 40
that's a car dealer in my city btw

 

[GT4_Rule]

Man, thats a nice Ferrari. I love the looks. But the insurance and maintenance costs gonna kill ya and youll wish you never bought it The Mazda 3 HB is a good choice, I'd say. Popular, easily tuneable, well-built and pretty fast.👍

 

[Ghost C]

Really good quote but I don't think even you would call your work genious. I think skip's point was to respond by your demand that he not insult your work without knowing it by demonstrating that there wasn't much to know. Maybe you should have, instead of using a quote which seems a bit pompous, told him that the significance is not in the work but in the results and then mention what cars your car has outrun.

True, I don't know I'd use the word genius to describe what I do, but I was the first person to provide any type of aftermarket for the car, and my car is internationally recognized as the fastest FWD DeVille, ever. It inspires more jealousy and hatred than it does compliments.

The reason I just posted the quote - It's not worth my time to reply to someone with no experience in modifying & building cars for race or show, with no racing victories and no show trophies, who has the audacity to insult my products without having ANY prior experience with them or any other product for the vehicles I develop them for, or the vehicles themselves, for the matter.

I could've shot down his argument fairly swiftly, but I saw the quote as fitting, seeing as it's been nominated as one of the single greatest ad campaigns of all time, and it was a black & white print ad run only once on January 2nd, 1915. Guess what company it was for?

Does your fifteen year old car have to meet with harsh emission, crash and pedestrian crash testing worldwide? The civic is meant to be a performance car but not only in a straight line and has many compromises. You are taking a car laden with luxuries and a heavily restricted engine and removing the restrictions and the weight.

Oh and also your car is an auto with a torque converter which multiplies torque in the low end. That would help in 0-60 times.

My car meets & exceeds all North Carolina emissions standards and all federal crash regulations. As far as I know, it would pass in Europe as it was sold there as well, and I've not removed any required emissions or safety equipment.

Yes, my car is modified, fairly heavily for what it is, but the comparison still stands. My car is also built to handle, not for raw straight line acceleration.

I guess we'll see how much the viscous converter helps the down low torque when I swap to my 5 speed with my 9lb flywheel and 4 puck solid hub ceramic clutch.

 

[skip0110]

The reason I just posted the quote - It's not worth my time to reply to someone with no experience in modifying & building cars for race or show, with no racing victories and no show trophies, who has the audacity to insult my products without having ANY prior experience with them or any other product for the vehicles I develop them for, or the vehicles themselves, for the matter.

It's a pity that you took down all the pictures of your rear "strut tower brace" because that was some serious engineering, for "race" I guess, as you say. Clearly you don't understand much mechanics (in the physics sense, I mean).

Of course I have no experince with anything.

EDIT: Isn't the HT-4900 a TBI? Why bother?

 

[cobragt]

Man, thats a nice Ferrari. I love the looks. But the insurance and maintenance costs gonna kill ya and youll wish you never bought it The Mazda 3 HB is a good choice, I'd say. Popular, easily tuneable, well-built and pretty fast.👍

I agree but it'd be maybe a month or two before I get a new car. Might find something better, who knows or how about a 2007 madza3? Gonna keep all options open. I'm gonna look at some other cars like the sentra spec r or a 90's M3:tup: