ORCA Silvia Spec Cup - SEASON COMPLETE, CARRACERPTP SUPREME ORCA CHAMP

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Tonight I drove around in an old Datsun 240 and the two old Skylines (70 and 73?) on CS tires and set to 360pp. Pretty much identical lap times around Autumn Ring and all three were really fun to drive. I did 400pp the other night and enjoyed them a bit more, cars like the 90 RX-7, 97 Supra and 89 Skyline R32, all on CS tires.

And I didn't intend to imply all 10 cars were viable, just that out of 10 we could find a few that would work together.
 
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carracerptp
Lamborghini Miura P400 Bertone Prototype CN.0706 : Just because it looks almost as good as the alfa.
IMPREZA Sedan WRX STI 2010 The best, low PP, 4WD, in the game (that can be found in a dealer ship).
Mazda RX-7 : One of my favorite cars.
Alfa Romeo GIULIA TZ2 carrozzata da ZAGATO CN.AR750106: Don't need to say why.
Ford Mustang Mach 1 :It's actually is very fun to drive, at least before spec 2.09 it was. I will check later tonight.
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This car list. Anything off it Lambo would be perftect Lambo.

I like all the cars listed. Lambo. If I had to pick Lambo a favorite. It would Lambo be the Miura. LoL



Fixed PP racing always leads to one or two cars being picked. Might as well stick too a one make.




Why not use PURE's GT300 specs and do a open tune season of GT300's on Racing Hards.

ORCA PRO GT300
 
Johnnypenso
I haven't found an FF or a 4wd yet, in it's spec form, that doesn't understeer like a bulldozer after the update. I just tuned a 370PP Civic for the Parity League, threw 200 kgs of ballast on the back and it still understeered. Before the update it would have been uncontrollable with the settings I used. If you can find one that doesn't then they are in the mix, if not, stick to FR's and MR's.
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I'm not even considering FF cars, I'm not really interested in them and I don't think many other people are either.


Ok, I'll just come out with it so you guys can have a better idea of my desires for my future of GT5 racing. This game has been out for over 700 days, having purchased it on release day I have done something on the game (race, practice, test, photo mode, etc.) for probably 75% of those days, if not more. I've been participating in or organizing competitive online racing for about a year and a half and I have created/hosted 7 full seasons and well over 100 points races...............


.............yet I have never raced a GT300/500 Car, or a LMP Car, or a GT car, or a Touring Car, or an F1 Car, or an FGT (except for one race that just went in circles for two hours). In fact, though I have nearly 1,000 cars in my garage I have only raced about a half dozen of them competitively and probably 900 of them have never even been taken out of the garage. I have not experienced some of the finest things the game has to offer. For those reasons I'm not too excited about committing to one car for another 4-6 weeks, as you all can hopefully understand.

I know a lot of you come here for one-make spec, no tuning racing and I agree that it has resulted in some world class competition. But the reason most of you keep coming back is because of the top notch drivers, the camaraderie and the positive attitudes which will be a constant no matter what car(s) we race. I really believe we could all have a lot more fun with a different format of racing that involves many different cars and themes, but I'm not confident I can convince others of this or that I can put together an appealing package.

So, that's where we are and I'm not sure where it goes from here. As I've said, I'm open to ideas but so far all the ideas have revolved around racing a single car and I'm just not sure that I'm up for that anymore. I'm in no way trying to be negative about any of this, just being brutally honest.
 
I for one am willing to try whatever you decide Brandon.

So be selfish on this one and do exactly what you want. We really want you too. You deserve it bro.


Btw thanks for everything you do here at ORCA. as well RDA for his behind the scenes work.

Greatly Appreciate it fellas.
 
I would definitely be in for some GT300/500 or GT/Touring cars... The GT300's especially provide great racing and I think they would still user friendly enough for a wide range of skill levels.
 
Out of all the cars a i have but don't drive, the $20-million ones annoy me the most. So how about a 20million dollar car league, where we use engine restrictor to even those, and you can switch between those mid-season. And if you score a podium, you have to switch
 
dsgerbc
Out of all the cars a i have but don't drive, the $20-million ones annoy me the most.
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Why do they annoy you? And if they annoy you, why do you want us to race them? :lol:
 
Could there be a team event here? With the expensive cars?
We'd all have to adopt posh accents and have posh names: Baron Owens of Turboville?

Just as a one off.
 
If you're going to open it up to tuning and multiple cars then the options are endless.

Around 450PP probably offers the most variety of any PP level. There are literally dozens of cars that are very close to each other at the exact PP level and would require just a little tweaking to even up. You could easily switch to harder tires too. And if tuning is in the mix, all drivetrains will work as the Integra Type R is one of the go to cars in this category and with some tweaking the Subarus, Evo's, Skylines etc can all be competitive. You'd be around 1:40 at Nurb GP/D, 1:22 at Deep Forest Reverse etc.

High 400'sPP with Astons, Jags, Alfas, Camaro's, Challenger etc...some heavyweights. Couple dozen potential cars in this range. Could do an America vs. the World type of theme.

GT300. Haven't driven them since the update but I'm thinking Sports Softs would do the trick. Even GT500's are on rails on Race Hards nowadays. If they've already been spec'd out by someone else all the better.

Other racecars. BMW 320i TC, Lexus IS200 RaceCar, Integra Type R TC, Mazda Atenza TC etc. Several cars in this category that can be evened up.

Rally Cars on Tarmac I don't think has ever been done.💡

Vintage Rally Cars on Tarmac.

Many more possibilities on top of this...
 
What about '60s Le Mans with the Chaparral 2D, Ferrari 330 P4, Ford Mark IV, and Jaguar XJ13?
 
Johnnypenso
If you're going to open it up to tuning and multiple cars then the options are endless.

Around 450PP probably offers the most variety of any PP level. There are literally dozens of cars that are very close to each other at the exact PP level and would require just a little tweaking to even up. You could easily switch to harder tires too. And if tuning is in the mix, all drivetrains will work as the Integra Type R is one of the go to cars in this category and with some tweaking the Subarus, Evo's, Skylines etc can all be competitive. You'd be around 1:40 at Nurb GP/D, 1:22 at Deep Forest Reverse etc.

High 400'sPP with Astons, Jags, Alfas, Camaro's, Challenger etc...some heavyweights. Couple dozen potential cars in this range. Could do an America vs. the World type of theme.

GT300. Haven't driven them since the update but I'm thinking Sports Softs would do the trick. Even GT500's are on rails on Race Hards nowadays. If they've already been spec'd out by someone else all the better.

Other racecars. BMW 320i TC, Lexus IS200 RaceCar, Integra Type R TC, Mazda Atenza TC etc. Several cars in this category that can be evened up.

Rally Cars on Tarmac I don't think has ever been done.💡

Vintage Rally Cars on Tarmac.

Many more possibilities on top of this...
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I'm not interested in doing tuning. Just having to screw around with the transmission for that kart race was enough to remind me why I dislike it so much.

I know this is a foreign concept, but you can do PP based racing with tuning prohibited. The power limiter can be adjusted and still qualify under the tuning prohibited option and in my experience this does produce pretty evenly matched cars (providing the drivetrain is limited as well, i.e. only FR). Are they absolutely perfectly even with each other? No, but they're within a couple tenths and once you figure in the draft and driver error that's enough to keep them pretty dang close. If we find out that one or two cars are slightly faster or slower then we could ask the faster guys to drive the slightly slower car and the slower guys to drive the slightly faster car, thus producing a more balanced field of drivers.

Everyone always says that if you race based on PP that one or two cars always rise to the top and that's what everyone will choose. But how many groups have raced based on PP with tuning prohibited and limited to a single drivetrain? None that I can think of, so to automatically say it won't work without doing any testing seems a bit short sighted to me. I can't say that it's positively a perfect method, nothing is, but I think with just a little bit of testing we could find a solution that works really well and could perhaps be the most fun racing we've ever had.
 
I based my tuning comment on your remark that we're used to coming here for one make no tuning racing and now you want to go to a different format, I just assumed it meant tuning. Should have known better:sly:

Without tuning of course it's possible to equalize cars, I've done if for you before actually, but they way you suggested doing it before severely limits the number of cars you can equalize. If it's wide open and you can have one car at 450pp another at 455PP another at 457PP etc. then that's fairly easy to do. But what you wanted to do before was have one PP setting for the entire room and not have to spec check any cars nor use the power limiter. That meant having everyone either at that PP or not able to reach that PP in their spec form but still be competitive. That's tough to do if you want the cars close. If you want them a second apart it's a little easier. I did it before with three cars, the Evo, Skyline and Subaru from the NCD I believe but that Audi TTS might have been in the mix.

It can be done but it'll take some testing. So are you now suggesting we use the power limiter and equalize all the cars to a given HP or PP level?
 
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The point of closely matching the performance - not to have one car dominate.
Easily achieved by requiring podium finishers to change the car to a different one on the menu.
 
dsgerbc
The point of closely matching the performance - not to have one car dominate.
Easily achieved by requiring podium finishers to change the car to a different one on the menu.
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Whether it's "easily" achieved is defined by the RD...lol. You could also have a slate of cars to choose from and allow the field to choose their own cars for each race based on their previous finish or their points total to date. There are several ways to do this sort of thing but they all require some work on the part of the RD and Brandon has been pretty clear from the beginning that anything that involves any "change" of any kind beyond the initial settings of the room is never easy and never really been on the table for consideration.

The type of equalization you're suggesting, of rotating cars when you win, was suggested and rejected on that basis and I believe the general consensus was also that ORCA drivers wanted to obtain their results based on their skill alone, good or bad, not on getting the slightly better car.

I think we need to know what options are on the table as far as room settings and adjustability are concerned before we figure out what cars are potentially involved and how you can achieve some kind of parity with the available settings.
 
Johnnypenso
The type of equalization you're suggesting, of rotating cars when you win, was suggested and rejected on that basis and I believe the general consensus was also that ORCA drivers wanted to obtain their results based on their skill alone, good or bad, not on getting the slightly better car.
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That was a different time, when people weren't quitting GT5 due to being bored to death. Now we must face a different reality.
 
Johnnypenso
Without tuning of course it's possible to equalize cars, I've done if for you before actually, but they way you suggested doing it before severely limits the number of cars you can equalize. If it's wide open and you can have one car at 450pp another at 455PP another at 457PP etc. then that's fairly easy to do. But what you wanted to do before was have one PP setting for the entire room and not have to spec check any cars nor use the power limiter. That meant having everyone either at that PP or not able to reach that PP in their spec form but still be competitive. That's tough to do if you want the cars close. If you want them a second apart it's a little easier. I did it before with three cars, the Evo, Skyline and Subaru from the NCD I believe but that Audi TTS might have been in the mix.

It can be done but it'll take some testing. So are you now suggesting we use the power limiter and equalize all the cars to a given HP or PP level?
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I'm sure you are correct as your memory is better than mine, but I don't recall being opposed to the power limiter. This concept is impossible without the power limiter and it's the only option we have to adjust cars under the tuning prohibited option. So, to clarify, YES the power limiter will be a (required) option for this kind of plan to work.

Ideally we would find a group of cars, pick the one with the lowest PP and equalize the other cars to that PP using the power limiter. I think if we do that and limit it to one drivetrain we could end up with a nice selection of cars for people to choose from, and they could even choose a different one each week if they wanted. As I said before, it's not going to result in all cars setting the exact same lap times, but when you figure in differing driver skill, slipstream and different tracks I think they would be close enough to have some fun racing.

Going one step further, we could have a group of "approved" PP/drivetrain settings with "approved" car groups. 350pp/FR/CS for "vintage" racing, 450pp/FR/SH for street car racing, 600pp/FR/RH for race cars (for example). Depending on what kind of mood we're in we can set the room restrictions accordingly. This would satisfy my itch for racing a variety of cars, but I'm not sure how others would feel about it. But having multiple cars to choose from means it's more likely that people have at least one of the cars broken in and ready to race.

dsgerbc
The point of closely matching the performance - not to have one car dominate.
Easily achieved by requiring podium finishers to change the car to a different one on the menu.
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I think that's one of the benefits to the PP restricted idea. It's quite likely that one or two cars will be slightly slower than the majority so we could ask the faster guys to race one of the slower cars to help balance things out. I'm not sure I would necessarily keep track or mandate who goes in what car, but I'm pretty sure most of our fast guys would gladly step into a slightly lesser car to help balance the field and give them more people to race with, and they'd probably do so without me having to ask/tell them to do so. 👍
 
BrandonW77
I'm sure you are correct as your memory is better than mine, but I don't recall being opposed to the power limiter. This concept is impossible without the power limiter and it's the only option we have to adjust cars under the tuning prohibited option. So, to clarify, YES the power limiter will be a (required) option for this kind of plan to work.

Ideally we would find a group of cars, pick the one with the lowest PP and equalize the other cars to that PP using the power limiter. I think if we do that and limit it to one drivetrain we could end up with a nice selection of cars for people to choose from, and they could even choose a different one each week if they wanted. As I said before, it's not going to result in all cars setting the exact same lap times, but when you figure in differing driver skill, slipstream and different tracks I think they would be close enough to have some fun racing.

Going one step further, we could have a group of "approved" PP/drivetrain settings with "approved" car groups. 350pp/FR/CS for "vintage" racing, 450pp/FR/SH for street car racing, 600pp/FR/RH for race cars (for example). Depending on what kind of mood we're in we can set the room restrictions accordingly. This would satisfy my itch for racing a variety of cars, but I'm not sure how others would feel about it. But having multiple cars to choose from means it's more likely that people have at least one of the cars broken in and ready to race.

I think that's one of the benefits to the PP restricted idea. It's quite likely that one or two cars will be slightly slower than the majority so we could ask the faster guys to race one of the slower cars to help balance things out. I'm not sure I would necessarily keep track or mandate who goes in what car, but I'm pretty sure most of our fast guys would gladly step into a slightly lesser car to help balance the field and give them more people to race with, and they'd probably do so without me having to ask/tell them to do so. 👍
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Haha..my memory is indeed better than yours..💡..as it was me telling you last time that it was incredibly difficult to do without the power limiter and you telling me it was "too much work" for the drivers to remember to use the power limiter, or words to that effect...lol.

What you're suggesting can work. Depending on how much you're willing to use the power limiter you can have large or small groups of cars that are competitive in each category. Going from 100>50% on the power limiter is usually around an 85-90PP drop so theoretically you could have cars from 450-540 PP in the same race, detuned to 450. And if we're just going by laptimes/speed, there's no need to limit drivetrains. You could just pick a test track, say Trial Mountain or any mid-size track and have the cars measured there to see how they fit with the group. If they are in the right laptime zone, they're in. So if someone likes Evo's or Skylines and they are competitive with an NSX or an MR2 under this formula, then have at it.
 
I'd still constrain it to a single drivetrain type. Some tracks benefit particular layout more than others, so if testing is done at a different track, one car can end-up being much faster due to layout. On the other hand, if two cars of the same layout and PP are similar in performance, say, at GVR, it is fairly likely they'll be similar on other tracks.
 
dsgerbc
I'd still constrain it to a single drivetrain type. Some tracks benefit particular layout more than others, so if testing is done at a different track, one car can end-up being much faster due to layout. On the other hand, if two cars of the same layout and PP are similar in performance, say, at GVR, it is fairly likely they'll be similar on other tracks.
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I agree, limiting drivetrain is just that extra little bit to help insure the cars are as close as possible. Every little bit helps. It also means the driving experience in each car is similar which makes it easier to jump from one to another.

@JP, I remember a detailed conversation with you regarding a popular myth that a power limited car will still be faster than a non-limited car. (meaning: many believe that if you detune a 450pp car down to 400pp it will still be superior to the stock 400pp car due to torque curve) After you had done some thorough testing you determined this to be untrue, which would help with this concept. Do you still find this to be true? I do think there's probably a limit but as long as we aren't detuning more than ~20-25pp I think we'll keep them in the same ballpark.


I'll be around for some testing this evening if anybody's interested.
 
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BrandonW77
@JP, I remember a detailed conversation with you regarding a popular myth that a power limited car will still be faster than a non-limited car.
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I think that depends on the track. PP formula takes HP curve into account, so for two cars with the same weight, PP and gearing, the downtuned car will have lower peak HP and it could hurt it on long straights.
Hard thing to test. Route-X side-by-side runs?
 
I think I found our inspiration.................





















Mazda-MX-5-IceRacing.jpg






:lol:
 
BrandonW77
I think I found our inspiration.................
Mazda-MX-5-IceRacing.jpg


:lol:
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I'm down, I'll just grab my FMSC MX-5, throw on some snow rubber and I'm ready.

I was just temped to try and get a 1999 MX5 that I saw for sale with a nice price. Looked great but I'm looking for a truck now and it was an automatic. Nothing wrong with that but if I'm getting a "sporty" car I want 3 pedals.
 
carracerptp
I was just temped to try and get a 1999 MX5 that I saw for sale with a nice price. Looked great but I'm looking for a truck now and it was an automatic. Nothing wrong with that but if I'm getting a "sporty" car I want 3 pedals.
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3 pedals is a must, for sure. I see them around here every now and then for pretty cheap. If I ever build a track car that's probably what it would be. People around here call them "girls cars", I laugh at their ignorance. :lol:
 
BrandonW77
I agree, limiting drivetrain is just that extra little bit to help insure the cars are as close as possible. Every little bit helps. It also means the driving experience in each car is similar which makes it easier to jump from one to another.

@JP, I remember a detailed conversation with you regarding a popular myth that a power limited car will still be faster than a non-limited car. (meaning: many believe that if you detune a 450pp car down to 400pp it will still be superior to the stock 400pp car due to torque curve) After you had done some thorough testing you determined this to be untrue, which would help with this concept. Do you still find this to be true? I do think there's probably a limit but as long as we aren't detuning more than ~20-25pp I think we'll keep them in the same ballpark.


I'll be around for some testing this evening if anybody's interested.
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All else the same, that is comparing spec vs. spec or tuned vs. tuned cars, detuning will rob a car of peak HP but flatten out the power curve more and more. The lower it goes and at the extremes, it's large enough to affect performance negatively. A 585PP car detuned to 500PP with the engine limited will not likely be as fast as a similar car tuned up to 500PP. A 585PP detuned to 550PP will likely be competitive. I believe PD has messed with this formula over time and I don't think the effect is as big as it used to be.

Thing is, if all that matters is that a car detuned to whatever our target PP is and is similar to the rest of the cars in the group, then the amount of detuning doesn't really matter. So long as the car is the same speed as the other cars in the group you're good to go.👍
 
Johnnypenso
All else the same, that is comparing spec vs. spec or tuned vs. tuned cars, detuning will rob a car of peak HP but flatten out the power curve more and more. The lower it goes and at the extremes, it's large enough to affect performance negatively. A 585PP car detuned to 500PP with the engine limited will not likely be as fast as a similar car tuned up to 500PP. A 585PP detuned to 550PP will likely be competitive. I believe PD has messed with this formula over time and I don't think the effect is as big as it used to be.
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Sounds logical. That's why I was thinking if we try not to detune more than ~20-25pp it will keep any advantages/disadvantages to a minimum. This wouldn't be a set in stone rule as it can't be policed, but based on your analysis it sounds like the more you detune the greater penalty you could encounter. I consider that a positive, helps nudge people into the desired group of cars. 👍
 
I'm opening the lounge to mess around for a bit, do some testing. Feel free join, I could use some guinea pigs. 420pp/FR/CS
 
Sorry, my liver made other plans...
 
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