Patch 2.0 oversteer bug still present! (?)

Discussion in 'Project CARS 2' started by mattikake, Oct 16, 2017.

  1. mattikake

    mattikake

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    291
    As far as I have just experienced, the oversteer bug still exists.

    See if you can analyse this vid - beyond being able to lap faster and general critique, as I'm sure some won't be able to resist... V

    So I have an online race at Fuji. Missed quali but I thought, no problem I know I have a setup that can get me into the 1:39s if I hook it up. Loaded the setup. Checked it actually loaded, because sometimes I notice it doesn't. Except the car became undriveable in certain sections. It absolutely felt like the old oversteer bug.

    The only real difference I can see, apart from some tiny differences in line or throttle application etc. - .i.e. nothing dramatic to cause these desperate issues, is that the tyre pressures were about 1-2 psi different. Given I can drive these corners fine on cold or hot tyres of a +/- 6 psi, I don't consider that to be the issue. I can drive this setup with varying tyres and tyre conditions all day long and never spin it in these sections. I had ABS on but I usually turn this on for racing and it shouldn't affect traction.

    It almost seems like there is some sort of processing issue when racing online or something as fundamentally problematic as that.

    Anyone else still experiencing this?

     
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  2. Pillo-san

    Pillo-san

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    Am I the only one thinking that you overdrive the car? Either you are to rough on the throttle or simply to hard on the brakes while you have to much bite on the rear brakes.
     
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  3. mattikake

    mattikake

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    Well I did say, leave of the critique because everyone will have an opinion on that. Maybe I do overdrive, although I have learned to smooth things out a lot. Karting habits... But what should affect you in an online race should be the same in practice and vice versa. It's not and felt a lot less close than a vid may look.
     
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  4. twitcher

    twitcher

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    4,597
    Ya I've had the same tbing happen. No matter how gentle you drive, the car has mad oversteering for a short period, then it goes away.

    Sometimes when that's happened, I've noticed one or more of the tire wear indicators flashing random colours. That doesn't happen every time though.
     
  5. mattikake

    mattikake

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    291
    I've seen tyres flashing different colours before usually light green/yellow-green. I assumed that to mean that I'd flat spotted one.
     
  6. Wayne Kerr

    Wayne Kerr

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    that first o/s moment. considering you're supposed to release the car to the exit and not pinch it tight like that, well any handling issue is driver induced.

    second o/s moment. didn't release the car to the outside kerb to turn it back in and held it tight. entered at too high speed -- driver induced.

    for this particular example, it's not the game, not the physics. it's the nut behind the wheel. tighten the nut ;)
     
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  7. twitcher

    twitcher

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    4,597
    None of that explains why the car continues to have catastrophic oversteer even after he has crashed and is trying to get back on track.
     
  8. TommySalami

    TommySalami

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    The first time you spin was likely your fault due to some poor input. After that, your tires will be much hotter and the car will be easier to spin. The soft slicks are especially vulnerable to this. In the video it looked like you weren't releasing your brakes smoothly and that caused a couple spins. To help with oversteer when releasing the brakes, you can increase front rebound and decrease rear compression
     
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  9. TommySalami

    TommySalami

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    He's on soft slicks. The tires are overheated (which isn't well-represented in the colors shown on the HUD). Those tires are especially vulnerable to overheating and need to be tip-toed around after a spin
     
  10. twitcher

    twitcher

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    4,597
    Watching the video again, I noticed that when you are spinning, there is smoke coming from only one tire.

    I've always felt when this happened to me, it was like something in the diff broke - that I was doing "one-wheel-peelers".

    The other thing that feels odd when this happens is the engine revs don't seem to match up with what is happening at the rear end. When this happens to me, it feels like wheelspin from the rear, but the engine isn't revving in a way that one would expect to cause wheelspin.

    I've experienced the soft tires after a spin, or after driving on grass/dirt, and yes, there is a drop in performance as one would expect.

    However, sometimes in online lobbies, and online races exclusively in my experience, you sometimes get an oversteer sensation that far exceeds the "overheated/dirty" soft slick notion. You can literally be coasting, give a small amount of steering input, and the car goes into this sort of dead slide which is uncontrollable and unalterable, and 99% of the time, you end of perpendicular to a barrier.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2017
  11. Wayne Kerr

    Wayne Kerr

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    30
    suspension damage perhaps?

    just a thought. he did crash afterall. I know the front impacted first, but who knows if the rear was also done; and w/o the full hud, we'll never know.
     
  12. twitcher

    twitcher

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    4,597
    If it's a result of damage, then why does it go away after a few corners? Watch the video. He crashes, spins 3 times, then does another lap. Car handles fine through S1 and S2, gets to S3, and gets catastrophic oversteer again.
     
  13. BrandonW77

    BrandonW77

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    I had this happen Friday night. Was racing with some buddies and every car we drove was oversteery as hell, I could barely give full throttle in any gear without the rear stepping out. Yet right afterwards I tried the same exact combos offline and all the cars had plenty of grip and I had no problem keeping them straight. Very odd. This happened in the GTO cars, GR.A cars, and another one that I can't recall, all of them felt like driving on bald tires online but all had plenty of grip and were great to drive offline. It definitely wasn't a case of me overdriving the cars either, I has having to be very gentle with them and my buddies were all blowing my doors off, but as soon as I went offline I could push like hell and the cars just asked for more without the slightest bit of oversteering protest.
     
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  14. jonyvf

    jonyvf

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    Location:
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    Try wet tires
    I tried with clio and the car look fantastic
    I think the wet tires are the soft slicks in some cars
     
  15. mattikake

    mattikake

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    291
    I appreciate all feedback to try to exactly understand this.

    Actually I wasn't trying to pinch it tight. It was starting to oversteer toward the inside before the tyre squeal even begins. And I was already on opposite lock before deciding to start lifting the throttle (because in FP I can do that lap after lap) so couldn't aim for that line anyway. So I was actually already aiming to take the same wider line I do in the free practice part of the vid. This is one of the things that strikes me as very odd with these oversteer moments.

    Again, I wasn't aiming for that line but the same line I was taking in FP. (why wouldn't I?) It was already starting to oversteer tight before you hear the tyre squeal. Maybe (apparently) I did enter too fast. I make it 52-54mph in the vid. In FP I was entering at 56-57mph. So that explanation doesn't track to me.

    Also to other suggestions;
    - Damage was off, so there was no suspension damage at any point.

    - At no point did I feel a sudden lightness or SoP whip to sudden wheelspin and as suggested. Where is the increased revving? However, getting consistent FFB from the wheel is one of the things I'm struggling with the most (G29), and it knocks-on to the live track badly. IIRC PC1 did this. If you used a bit too much inside kerb the physics would throw a benny and get you oversteering. In fact you could hear the revs rise as it decided to lose traction but your foot would be off the throttle SEVERAL SECONDS beforehand! Anyone remember getting that? Feels like some of this feature has been carried over somehow.

    - Difficult to know what the actual temps are. There were the "hotter" yellow-green colour throughout. No doubt there is a temperature range for this colour. Really if the tyres are overheating that performance is impacted, that should show up as a colour change to be fair.

    My overall gut feeling is that this is some sort of processing problem. I wonder if this only affects PS4 users in that case - yes I'm on PS4.
     
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  16. BrandonW77

    BrandonW77

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    I'm on PC and had pretty much the same issue on Friday night. Offline the cars felt great with plenty of grip, online they all felt like the Maserati 250 F1 cars in AC and were just slipping and sliding all over the place. Take them right back offline and they had plenty of grip again and drove like I expected them to. Like jonyvf suggested, it was like I had (bald) wet tires on but I was on a dry track.
     
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  17. TommySalami

    TommySalami

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    Track temperature makes a huge difference as well. This can vary between online lobbies and your offline private testing depending on the settings you choose, so it may explain what's going on. What was the track temperature, were you on Soft Slicks, and what was the tire temperature when the car started to oversteer? These are all real-life factors that are being modeled so you have to take them into consideration.

    Soft slicks get very greasy past the green color temperature and into the green-yellow color. After about 2 laps of a normal track they're much more difficult to control. I've found that if track temperature is greater than about 90 degrees F, you should be on Hard Slicks.

    Some tires like on the Clio, which I've yet to drive, are apparently bugged and have slicks switched with rain tires. If that's the case for what you're driving, you'll know because you'll be WAY off pace
     
  18. twitcher

    twitcher

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    4,597
    The bit about the oversteer beginning before the tire squeel, or engine rpm, or anything, is exactly what I experience. It's like everything goes dead for a moment - once the oversteer begins, even steering and brake inputs have no impact on the slide.

    It's very hard to describe he sensation in words. The best I can think of is that it's like the inside rear wheel completely brakes loose, and starts wheelspinning like crazy (but there's no sound to accompany this).

    The other way I can think of describing it is that in most situations where we talk about oversteer, we talk about "the rear end stepping out." In the cases that I think some of us are trying to describe, it feels more like the front is stepping in, rather than the rear stepping out.
     
  19. Animera

    Animera

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    I've experienced this once on PC. I call it a 'lazy spin'.
     
  20. mattikake

    mattikake

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    291
    It behaves (feels) similar the original oversteer bug which I believe was understood to be a setup from a completely different car being loaded. It's overly/uncontrollably loose and no input you make makes a difference. There is never any feedback through the wheel and no indicators from the HUD or engine revs etc. It just kind of floats off the track.
     
  21. chopz

    chopz

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    28
    Yes! I have had this exact thing before. My occurrence was on Daytona Road Course with Porsche 911GT3 24hour car. Exited the race, then came back in and everything was fine.

    I don't know if the issue was some other random setup being loaded or what, but I couldn't keep the car on the course. After exit and re-entry everything was back to normal. My friend had this exact same issue as well, same track, same car. Neither of us could recall if we loaded the setup for sure before leaving the pits.
     
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  22. mattikake

    mattikake

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    291
    Ok well that's a start. If it happens in practice/quali you can quit out and come back in. If that fixes it then this is certainly some other issue with the game.

    That means no last minute race entries though - I love starting at the back.
     
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  23. BrandonW77

    BrandonW77

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    Nah, I did my offline tests with pretty much the same exact conditions as the server and with the default setup. I could flip from online to offline and it was like driving two totally different cars, one felt like a planted GT car with fresh tires on a warm track, the other felt like bald tires on a wet track. Pretty much what the guy below describes, it felt far more like something was broken than a simple handling issue due to track conditions and I was several seconds slower than other people in the server using the same car.

     
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  24. chopz

    chopz

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    28
    Check this out guys,

    I've been monitoring this issue for a couple weeks now and it is quite strange. I will try to explain my latest example.

    Context:


    - Online multiplayer, 2 person session
    - COTA, 5laps, static time progression
    - Porsche 911 GT3 24hr

    Hardware:
    - Player A - PS4 standard, T300RS
    - Player B - PS4 pro, T300RS

    1st session
    - Player A & B load the exact same setup, same car, same livery
    - Player A runs 2:12 laptime
    - Player B runs 2:12 laptime
    - Session ends

    2nd session re-launched from lobby


    - Player A can no longer run 2:12, player A max laptime is 2:20 now
    - Player B runs 2:12 still

    Ok, so player A wonders what the hell is going on after 5-6 laps. Did player A really lose 9 seconds a lap. Player A gets player B to follow him to see whats up with the driving line HOWEVER, what is discovered immediately is that player A has completely different acceleration or drag on the straights. So much so, player A can pull 2-3 seconds per straight away.

    We tested this multiple times from side by side stopped positions. We ran from the same spot before the start finish to check speed at the start line.

    Player A goes back to the pitbox re-loads the setup. Player B goes back to the pitbox and reloads the setups.

    Player A still has no power/acceleration...

    3rd Session re-launched from lobby
    - Player A & B load the exact same setup, same car, same livery
    - Player A can now AGAIN run 2:12
    - Player B still is running 2:12

    VERY STRANGE. We THINK we have had this issue before regarding bizarre handling characteristics. Like suddenly one player can't keep the car on the track with the same setup. We didn't monitor this real close because we thought probably user error, BUT now I am convinced something is up.

    I wonder how this can be investigated further.
     
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  25. Wayne Kerr

    Wayne Kerr

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    livetrack is different between offline private testing and online servers.

    bunch of us racing a multiclass league had the same thing, the track grip level is different at the start of the race vs offline private testing mode and the buildup rate is different.

    same setup, same fuel load lap 1 multiplayer vs lap 1 private testing with almost the same track temp (plus/minus 1 deg centigrade) i was almost a full second slower on a 74 second lap.

    16 lap race and lap 1 to 10 it was a very slick track. Come lap 13 it was almost like a flip switched on and the grip felt as good if not better than what i run on in private testing mode.

    so it isn't a setup thing or a setup not loading, it's a live track thing.
     
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  26. RomKnight

    RomKnight

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    1,776
    Do the same with the telemetry HUD on.
     
  27. Wayne Kerr

    Wayne Kerr

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    30
    does the hud tell you the grip level of the track liek the physics debug app in AC? If not then what am i to do with the hud.
     
  28. BrandonW77

    BrandonW77

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    Ok, then explain how two people in the same server in the same car at the same time can have two very different experiences with the car? See @chopz analysis, this is very similar to what I experienced where a buddy was in the server with me driving the same car (both on default setup) and he was talking about how planted it was and I was about 5 seconds slower than him and sliding all over the track, I had to tip-toe around while he could push as hard as he wanted. It's not a live track thing if two people in the same car on the same track are having completely different behaviors from the car.
     
  29. Wayne Kerr

    Wayne Kerr

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    30
    you did read about the bug where one guy had a wet track and the other didn't in an online environment?

    if that isn't a live track thing i don't know what is.
     
  30. BrandonW77

    BrandonW77

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    Sounds like a bug to me, not an intentional element of a live track feature. I mean, you really think it's by design that one person sees a dry track but another in the same server sees a wet track? No, that can't be an intentional decision, it is a bug.