Patch 2.0 oversteer bug still present! (?)

[PzR Slim]

I'm calling foul on this. If I told you the sky is blue you try every thing to say it's not and try to force me to prove it. You know what. You can't reject this bug you showed with the physics. You leaned on the right front tire and the telemetry showed the physics was backwards. I guess that your excuse is that it not exactly like the real thing all the time, guess what, that's what I've been telling you all along it not perfectly real. Don't think me to go prove something to you when you already mistakenly proved it for me. Bloopers! Now that we now it's not perfectly real at simulating everything all the time and at anytime we can probably find something bugged about it. This destroys your claims about deluded fantasist yep that is what this is related to. You think deluded fantasist can't see nothing wrong with their favorite game when someone complains or pokes holes like you did with those gts guys. So just know that this pcars2 game is not immune from scrutiny. Because this game has long track history of unanswered bugs from physics ffb settings AI and glitches. Now for me. I say the game should be less oversteery around ever corner like Ian Bell say to fire the engineer if it does. That is how I would like it if the game physics is not quite right. People tickled with project cars one for year with physics not quite right but the deluded fantasist never seen the flaws in tires until pcars2 now here we go again with the deluded fantasizing. Or do you expect me to still support this claim too.

So yet again you provide absolutely no proof of what you claim and go on some mini, delusional rant. Not one single person has claimed that PCars 2 is perfect. All we have done is countered your ridiculous claim that the '66 Mustang is undriveable. We have proved that, shown that and one member has even done a frame by frame analysis of what is happening when you question the footage. That member and another have a great deal of credibility on this site formed through years of interaction and displaying their knowledge. You have zero credibility and seem to have an inherent lack of understanding of vehicle dynamics. So either prove the claims you are making or stop your clearly biased tirade against the game.

 

[Imari]

Or do you expect me to still support this claim too.

A little bit of actual detail instead of "IT'S WRONG !!11!1" would be nice.

 

[Racelow]

So yet again you provide absolutely no proof of what you claim and go on some mini, delusional rant. Not one single person has claimed that PCars 2 is perfect. All we have done is countered your ridiculous claim that the '66 Mustang is undriveable. We have proved that, shown that and one member has even done a frame by frame analysis of what is happening when you question the footage. That member and another have a great deal of credibility on this site formed through years of interaction and displaying their knowledge. You have zero credibility and seem to have an inherent lack of understanding of vehicle dynamics. So either prove the claims you are making or stop your clearly biased tirade against the game.

The claim has been proven. The data from the telemetry showed the wrong tire gaining pressure. Undeniably flawed. Even if this was based on time progression the lighter tire weight Was never supposed to gain pressure at a faster rate than the heavier tire weight. If you squeezed a baloon you would gain pressure. I don't care how much you think I know about vehicle dynamics, saying that what you said makes it seem like you got more to bring to the table. Do you?

 

[Scaff]

I'm calling foul on this.

On what?

That I disagree with you and have explained why I disagree with you.

If I told you the sky is blue you try every thing to say it's not and try to force me to prove it.

Nope, and given that you are the one making extraordinary claims, then the onus is on you to back them up.

You know what. You can't reject this bug you showed with the physics.

YOu havn't shown a bug, you have misunderstood how physics work.

You leaned on the right front tire and the telemetry showed the physics was backwards. I guess that your excuse is that it not exactly like the real thing all the time, guess what, that's what I've been telling you all along it not perfectly real.

No the telemetry doesn't show that its backwards at all.

Tyre pressure is not reset at every corner, its not an indicator of the load of the car at that point in time. Should you wish to claim it is (which flies in the face of established tyre physics) then you will be expected to support that claim.

Don't think me to go prove something to you when you already mistakenly proved it for me. Bloopers!

I haven't proven it for you, you have failed to understand how real world physics work.

Now that we now it's not perfectly real at simulating everything all the time and at anytime we can probably find something bugged about it.

Cite anyone at all ever saying that PC2s perfect. If you can't then please stop claiming this.

This destroys your claims about deluded fantasist yep that is what this is related to. You think deluded fantasist can't see nothing wrong with their favorite game when someone complains or pokes holes like you did with those gts guys. So just know that this pcars2 game is not immune from scrutiny. Because this game has long track history of unanswered bugs from physics ffb settings AI and glitches. Now for me. I say the game should be less oversteery around ever corner like Ian Bell say to fire the engineer if it does. That is how I would like it if the game physics is not quite right. People tickled with project cars one for year with physics not quite right but the deluded fantasist never seen the flaws in tires until pcars2 now here we go again with the deluded fantasizing glorifying pcars2 physics.

And so we get to the crux of this. You don't like the fact that I have issues with GTS physics and tyre model.

Or do you expect me to still support this claim too. OK I will two words, Asseto corsa.

Have you driven the Cobra in AC?

 

[PzR Slim]

The claim has been proven. The data from the telemetry showed the wrong tire gaining pressure. Undeniably flawed. Even if this was based on time progression the lighter tire weight Was never supposed to gain pressure at a faster rate than the heavier tire weight. If you squeezed a baloon you would gain pressure. I don't care how much you think I know about vehicle dynamics, saying that what you said makes it seem like you got more to bring to the table. Do you?

You have brought nothing to the table yet so how could I possibly know?

 

[Scaff]

The claim has been proven. The data from the telemetry showed the wrong tire gaining pressure. Undeniably flawed. Even if this was based on time progression the lighter tire weight Was never supposed to gain pressure at a faster rate than the heavier tire weight. If you squeezed a baloon you would gain pressure. I don't care how much you think I know about vehicle dynamics, saying that what you said makes it seem like you got more to bring to the table. Do you?

Load is not the only factor is tyre pressure, which would need to be tru for your claim to be correct.

However this is very easy, if what you claim is true you will have no problem providing a source for it, as I have already ask you to do so.

"So a paper that shows for a tyre in motion that momentary vertical load has a greater affect on pressure in a suspended vehicle than the cumulative affect of cornering forces, temperature (which is in turn across three faces of the tyre and affected by camber), internal gas cycles, etc."

Oh and if you squeeze a balloon you will make very little difference to the overall pressure. Its a flexible rubber membrane with gas inside it, as you squeeze part of it inwards, other parts will expand resulting in little overall difference in pressure.

Nor have I said that load can't change pressure, however in a flexable container (which a tyre is) its not as large a factor as a solid sealed chamber (such as a combustion chamber as the piston goes in), and its not as big a factor as the other factors acting on the tyre, which will have been acting on them (in this example) for a lap and a half.

All factors that you have either not considered (which would be strange as I have already mentioned all of them) or have simply ignored.

 

[MABlosfeld]

Quite a few of the cars in this game are understeery out of the box. Probably to make them less crazy to drive for the masses. Try messing with the roll bars. Soften the front, stiffen the rear. Most cars have the bars round the other way in the stock setup and they can often be flipped round somewhat and still the car is driveable without the rear end spinning round on you. Should notice a difference immediately.

In pcars1, changing the tuning or anything inside the game caused problems in the FFB. At night I will do some tests, I will change the tuning, hoping not to cause problems and get faster. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Racelow]

That I disagree with you and have explained why I disagree with you.

I disagree with you too and I have explained why.

YOu havn't shown a bug, you have misunderstood how physics work.

You have shown the bug. It shows how flawed physics work in pcars2

No the telemetry doesn't show that its backwards at all.

Yes it does.

Tyre pressure is not reset at every corner, its not an indicator of the load of the car at that point in time. Should you wish to claim it is (which flies in the face of established tyre physics) then you will be expected to support that claim.

Tire pressure doesn't "reset" it gains pressure or not on every corner, you failed to realize this in your deep analysis.

Cite anyone at all ever saying that PC2s perfect. If you can't then please stop claiming this.

Cite? I thought you believed pcars2 was perfect and immuned from scrutiny. My bad if I was wrong for thinking that. The game is flawed.

 

[Scaff]

Quite a few of the cars in this game are understeery out of the box. Probably to make them less crazy to drive for the masses. Try messing with the roll bars. Soften the front, stiffen the rear. Most cars have the bars round the other way in the stock setup and they can often be flipped round somewhat and still the car is driveable without the rear end spinning round on you. Should notice a difference immediately.

In pcars1, changing the tuning or anything inside the game caused problems in the FFB. At night I will do some tests, I will change the tuning, hoping not to cause problems and get faster. Thanks for the tip.

As standard in PC2 all cars will have either two or three set-ups you can use without having to play around:

Loose: Biased towards oversteer, he default if you have a wheel connected
Stable: Biased towards understeer, the default if you have a pad connected
OEM: Only exists for road cars, and uses the manufacturers road car set-up

You can access these from the load set-up screen.

I disagree with you too and I have explained why.

And I have explained repeatedly and in detail why the assumption you are basing it on is wrong, as in wrong in the real world, with real world physics. Even the analogy you used was wrong.

You have shown the bug. It shows how flawed physics work in pcars2

And I have explained repeatedly and in detail why the assumption you are basing it on is wrong, as in wrong in the real world, with real world physics. Even the analogy you used was wrong.

Yes it does.

And I have explained repeatedly and in detail why the assumption you are basing it on is wrong, as in wrong in the real world, with real world physics. Even the analogy you used was wrong.

Tire pressure doesn't "reset" it inflates or deflates on every corner, you failed to realize this in your deep analysis.

I'm the one that said it doesn't reset, how on earth can I be wrong when I said that!

Cite? I thought you believed pcars2 was perfect and immuned from scrutiny. My bad if I was wrong for thinking that. The game is flawed.

I've already said, repeatedly that I do not hold this view and as such you are now quite deliberately posting false and misleading information.

 

[Racelow]

I've already said, repeatedly that I do not hold this view and as such you are now quite deliberately posting false and misleading information.

You have posted a video that shows flawed tire pressure physics in project cars 2. You are analysing it deliberately with misleading false information.

 

[Scaff]

You have posted a video that shows flawed tire pressure physics in project cars 2. You are analysing it deliberately with misleading false information.

Then you will have no problem proving a source that backs up your claim.

 

[MABlosfeld]

As standard in PC2 all cars will have either two or three set-ups you can use without having to play around:

Loose: Biased towards oversteer, he default if you have a wheel connected
Stable: Biased towards understeer, the default if you have a pad connected
OEM: Only exists for road cars, and uses the manufacturers road car set-up

You can access these from the load set-up screen.

hmmmmmm ... I saw that there but I had no idea what it was for, you must be thinking, '' this guy does not have curiosity to test things? "Yes, I'm curious but the experience I had in pcars1 was a bit unpleasant. I'm going to do some tests, select the predefined tuning options, I'll hope that the results will be positive and the experience will continue to be enjoyable. , thanks for the tip.

edit: yes, I have a steering wheel connected: g27 with modified pedals + cockpit made in the house + trackIR made in the house too

 

[Bealdor]

You have posted a video that shows flawed tire pressure physics in project cars 2. You are analysing it deliberately with misleading false information.

Dude, just stop it. You obviously don't know as much about tire temperature/pressure/load relationships as you might think.
The pressure increase through load changes is so minute that it probably isn't even exposed in the HUD. The volume in the tire is almost constant under load because of it's structure and the fact that the contact patch shape changes, leading to a different load distribution and keeping the pressure on the tire almost unchanged. Tires aren't balloons...

The reason why the left tire pressure rises (minimally) is because the hot brakes are transferring heat to it. This effect has a much more significant impact on tire pressure than any kind of load change.

 

[BrandonW77]

 

[NLxAROSA]

This thread reminds me of trying to explain nuclear fusion to my cat.

 

[Imari]

You have posted a video that shows flawed tire pressure physics in project cars 2. You are analysing it deliberately with misleading false information.

Those of us who know how tyres and pressures work don't see anything about the telemetry in that particular situation that is counter to what might realistically be expected.

If you want to demonstrate it's wrong, you're going to have to come up with a little more than what you've got so far. Which is basically asking us, an audience with a reasonable background in physics and car dynamics, to take your word for it.

How about this, you figure out what volume change and temperature change would be required to create a 0.01 bar pressure differential in a generic tyre, and then we can look at the numbers and consider what's more likely?

 

[Racelow]

The reason why the left tire pressure rises (minimally) is because the hot brakes are transferring heat to it. This effect has a much more significant impact on tire pressure than any kind of load change.

No,
I'll use scaffs video as a perfect demonstration for your claim on the brakes.The temperature in the brakes from left dropped from 777f at2.38 bar to 752 at 2.39 bar You didnt prove your point. This does the opposite of what you say. Look here at the video at 7 min to 7 min 8 secs

 

[Bealdor]

No,
I'll use scaffs video as a perfect demonstration for your claim on the brakes.The temperature in the brakes from left dropped from 777f at2.38 bar to 752 at 2.39 bar
You didnt prove your point. This does the opposite of what you say.

Look here at the video at 7 min to 7 min 8 secs

Heat transfer from brakes to tires doesn't happen instantly...

I agree it is pretty damn cool.

Looks like a small detail, but it is so cool that setting tire pressure for the track, weather, car setup, everything else is this deep now. It's a big job getting it right in real racing, and our 9-layer dip* of a heat model means it is just as significant a challenge in game. Was more than a little pleased after we got the calibrations right and it worked so that a single heat model gives accurate results for how temperature builds up through all the important layers over time on the IndyCar both at Long Beach and Indianapolis. There couldn't be more extreme ends of the spectrum on how heat flows through the wheel-brake-tire system and I think it adds a lot to the 'living tracks' experience.

You're right that it's totally against what we've learned from games for going on 25 years now where tire pressure is directly related to tire temperature. Yeah, they are connected but the whole system is much more involved than that.

What Jussi means about preheating is that when we preheat tires, it's like done in ovens as you might see used in FIA WEC. The whole tire and wheel come out at maybe 90°C throughout, but that's not where it will be after running a few laps. Tread might be 90, carcass interior 105, rim heated to 140 by the brakes, surface layer changing rapidly above and below tread core, etc. All that can make the inflation pressure fluctuate in unexpected ways until you run long enough for the whole system to stabilize.

*The layers: Ambient<->Flash<->Surface Layer<->Tread<->Carcass<->Inflation Air<->Rim<->'Well' air between rim and brake, which also vents to ambient<->Brake rotor

I'm happy enough with this part of the heat model. From all the research we've done and data watching live telemetry of various cars, the air inside the tire is a strong choke point (super low thermal mass and low conductivity). Brake heat has a strong effect to heat the rim and raise tire pressure, but moving from there outward to the tread rubber is a verrrrryyy slooooowwww process.

 

[MABlosfeld]

I remembered that in pcars1 some people complained about physics, that driving a few cars was wrong. It turned out that the error was not in the physics of the game pcars1 but in the comparison between the physics of the games. Comparing the physics of a game with the physics of another game is totally meaningless and wrong, the result will be the choice by physics based on individual preference. One thing is certain, the only correct physics is the real one, the others just try to simulate the real. I know physics in some games (AC, RFACTOR2, SIMRACEWAY, R3E, PCARS), I do not know the physics implemented in GTS and FORZA, in the games I know, I can say they are great and different but I prefer PCARS.

edit: I know that physics is always physical, in the real world, in the virtual if it tries to simulate physics. Some telemetry screens inform the operation of physics, at this point I do not argue because I have no knowledge but I have the sensitivity to feel the physics being applied and transmitted through the FFB and based on the sensation I choose the one that I think is closer to reality or just based on my personal preference. I hope I have been able to explain without complicating myself, English is not my native language.

 

[Scaff]

No,
I'll use scaffs video as a perfect demonstration for your claim on the brakes.The temperature in the brakes from left dropped from 777f at2.38 bar to 752 at 2.39 bar You didnt prove your point. This does the opposite of what you say. Look here at the video at 7 min to 7 min 8 secs

The actual train of events is:

2:29.30 Front left brakes hit max temp of 908f, tyre pressure is 2.38 at this point
2:31.06 Front left brakes at 752f, tyre pressure is 2.39 at this point

At 2.29.30 that temp is still in the brakes, in the next circa 1.5 seconds that heat dissipates by around 150f. That heat has to go some place, much of it will go into the surrounding air, some of it goes into the tyre, which will be part of the increase in pressure.

It is unrealistic to expect the heat to dissipate from the drum and into the tyre instantly, yet that's what you new argument relies on.

 

[shoemaker]

Is anybody else not feeling kerbs at all ? Iam running a Tx wheel on xbox one x, i have no feeling at all under all ffb flavours....anybody ?

 

[Scaff]

Is anybody else not feeling kerbs at all ? Iam running a Tx wheel on xbox one x, i have no feeling at all under all ffb flavours....anybody ?

I get curb feel on a PS4 Pro, with a T300.

Running raw.

 

[BeetesJuice]

....The reason why the left tire pressure rises (minimally) is because the hot brakes are transferring heat to it. This effect has a much more significant impact on tire pressure than any kind of load change.

This plays a larger role then some tend to think - those Casey quotes from Bealdor are golden (quotes were when a WMD member thought it was a bug ) Car needs time to get up to working temps for brakes/tires. Let the car settle in before making setup changes or calling out possible bugs. Meh anyway, not contributing much, just wanted to point this out and give a 👍 to Scaff and Co. (Clio thread also) - queue Charlie and Mac from Always Sunny....."Reason will prevail!"

 

[Racelow]

Heat transfer from brakes to tires doesn't happen instantly...

Yes heat transfer from the brakes to the tires can happen over time. Going down the straight after the previous turn the brakes heat basically leved off. There was a dramatic drop in left brake temperature at the spin point we are talking about but the pressure increased. This makes this physics in pcars2 game just not right and utterly not like
being perfect reality.

The actual train of events is:

2:29.30 Front left brakes hit max temp of 908f, tyre pressure is 2.38 at this point
2:31.06 Front left brakes at 752f, tyre pressure is 2.39 at this point

At 2.29.30 that temp is still in the brakes, in the next circa 1.5 seconds that heat dissipates by around 150f. That heat has to go some place, much of it will go into the surrounding air, some of it goes into the tyre, which will be part of the increase in pressure.

It is unrealistic to expect the heat to dissipate from the drum and into the tyre instantly, yet that's what you new argument relies on.

That also utterly tells nothing, you only showed left brake temps of 908f at 2.38 bar. You haven't privided details to support your claim.

 

[Scaff]

Yes heat transfer from the brakes to the tires can happen over time. Going down the straight after the previous turn the brakes heat basically leved off. There was a dramatic drop in left brake temperature at the spin point we are talking about but the pressure increased. This makes this physics in pcars2 game just not right and utterly not like
being perfect reality.

No it really doesn't.

The heat leaving the brakes has to go somewhere!

That also utterly tells nothing, you only showed left brake temps of 908f at 2.38 bar. You haven't provided details to support your claim.

Yes it does. It tells us that the drum lost 150f of heat, and the tyre pressure increased. It's not exactly a leap to say that some of that heat went into the tyre and increased the pressure!

 

[Bealdor]

Yes heat transfer from the brakes to the tires can happen over time. Going down the straight after the previous turn the brakes heat basically leved off. There was a dramatic drop in left brake temperature at the spin point we are talking about but the pressure increased. This makes this physics in pcars2 game just not right and utterly not like
being perfect reality.

I don't know how any of this indicates that the physics are flawed.
Scaff steps on the brakes, brakes heat up, a few seconds later you can see tire pressures rise because of heat being transferred into them while the SURFACE of the brake rotor is already cooling down again. The pressure continues to rise on the next straight still, simply because heat conduction happens over time.
Btw. it's totally normal that surface heat on the brake rotor drops quickly because the slower you go, the less heat is generated through braking while the energy (heat) flow into the rotor core is unchanged.

That also utterly tells nothing, you only showed left brake temps of 908f at 2.38 bar. You haven't privided details to support your claim.

You're the one claiming that the system isn't working correctly, so it's on you to provide factual data to prove it. Not the other way around.

 

[Jack Dulmage]

Really think this could be useful here as well: (definitions from Wiki as the language is lighter, however they can be affirmed using the link to the scholarly source below). These are just a few being used above...

• Shifting the burden of proof (see – onus probandi) – I need not prove my claim, you must prove it is false.

• Appeal to the stone (argumentum ad lapidem) – dismissing a claim as absurd without demonstrating proof for its absurdity.[17]
• Argument from ignorance (appeal to ignorance, argumentum ad ignorantiam) – assuming that a claim is true because it has not been or cannot be proven false, or vice versa.[18]
• Argument from incredulity (appeal to common sense) – "I cannot imagine how this could be true; therefore, it must be false."[19]
• Argument from repetition (argumentum ad nauseam, argumentum ad infinitum) – signifies that it has been discussed extensively until nobody cares to discuss it anymore;[20][21] sometimes confused with proof by assertion
• Argument from silence (argumentum ex silentio) – assuming that a claim is true based on the absence of textual or spoken evidence from an authoritative source, or vice versa.[22][23]

Source: www.iep.utm.edu

All of these fallacies can be found here with a more in depth definition...

 

[BrandonW77]

Really think this could be useful here as well: (definitions from Wiki as the language is lighter, however they can be affirmed using the link to the scholarly source below). These are just a few being used above...

• Shifting the burden of proof (see – onus probandi) – I need not prove my claim, you must prove it is false.

• Appeal to the stone (argumentum ad lapidem) – dismissing a claim as absurd without demonstrating proof for its absurdity.[17]
• Argument from ignorance (appeal to ignorance, argumentum ad ignorantiam) – assuming that a claim is true because it has not been or cannot be proven false, or vice versa.[18]
• Argument from incredulity (appeal to common sense) – "I cannot imagine how this could be true; therefore, it must be false."[19]
• Argument from repetition (argumentum ad nauseam, argumentum ad infinitum) – signifies that it has been discussed extensively until nobody cares to discuss it anymore;[20][21] sometimes confused with proof by assertion
• Argument from silence (argumentum ex silentio) – assuming that a claim is true based on the absence of textual or spoken evidence from an authoritative source, or vice versa.[22][23]

Source: www.iep.utm.edu

All of these fallacies can be found here with a more in depth definition...

You win GTP for the day. I've often said, any given sim racing forum thread could be a great case study in logical fallacies.

 

[Racelow]

The heat leaving the brakes has to go somewhere!

It didn't go into the tire at the turn because the tire temperature dropped dramatically as I pointed out previously. This is the opposite of being a true sim.

Yes it does. It tells us that the drum lost 150f of heat, and the tyre pressure increased. It's not exactly a leap to say that some of that heat went into the tyre and increased the pressure!

So now you guess the heat went from the brakes to the left tire at the turn... This debunked your claim.

 

[Scaff]

It didn't go into the tire at the turn because the tire temperature dropped dramatically as I pointed out previously. This is the opposite of being a true sim.

That's tyre surface temp, not the internal gas temperature (which is shown as a pressure rating).

The drum is quite literally inside the wheel itself. To heat the surface of the tyre it has to travel from the drum, to the wheel itself, from the wheel into the interior of the tyre, heat the anterior gases (which will show as pressure) and then transfer from the inside to the outside of the tyre carcass before it can heat the surface. And that's assuming that the interior gasses are hotter than the tyre surface, as if its not then it will do bugger all!

The tyre surface is literally the last place that will be heated by the dissipating heat from the drum.

So now you guess the heat went from the brakes to the left tire at the turn... This debunked your claim.

Nope.