PD turned the Pagani Huayra a monster

[KinLM]

Yeah, that was half meant as a joke.
A wordplay on miles off - miles per hour...


I'll get my coat.

Oh! I get it now!

 

[SciroccoRich]

Thats what I was thinking, draft changes everything.

And you're right, 19 is actually quite a lot. But that 20 HP has to be worth a few. And the length of Route X does too, you could never get that car up to that speed normally.

But yes, it still is too quick. Although not as far fetched as OP originally said.

20HP @ 200MPH+ is worth absolutely nothing. The Veyron SS had to add 200 HP to make it go 15 MPH faster than the standard one. People don't seem to realise how hard it is making cars drive faster at these speeds. There's not a cats chance in hell ANY real production cars on GT6 could EVER go even close to 300 MPH especially not with just a simple gear change!

 

[KinLM]

20HP @ 200MPH+ is worth absolutely nothing. The Veyron SS had to add 200 HP to make it go 15 MPH faster than the standard one. People don't seem to realise how hard it is making cars drive faster at these speeds. There's not a cats chance in hell ANY real production cars on GT6 could EVER go even close to 300 MPH especially not with just a simple gear change!

20 HP at 240 MPH would be worth about 2-3 MPH. Not "nothing". But very little.

 

[TheFlyingScot]

Right now, i'm doing the Like the Wind with the Huayra GT Anniversary model.
It's max speed is 270 MPH at SSRX. In Wikipedia, it says that it's max speed is 231 MPH.

Why PD done that? I remember a thread related to this, throw me the link if you know

Maybe your Huayra was fully tuned to reach 270, mean my Huayra with it's top speed setup can do 303mph without any slipstream or nos. If yours wasn't fully tuned maybe you got slipstream to get it to 270?

 

[SciroccoRich]

20 HP at 240 MPH would be worth about 2-3 MPH. Not "nothing". But very little.

Doubt it. It's much more about the aero. 20 Hp would make almost NO difference at all.

 

[KinLM]

Doubt it. It's much more about the aero. 20 Hp would make almost NO difference at all.

Which, in case you weren't listening, is what I just said. 2-3 MPH. Very little because it's more about aero. Veyron uses 200 more for 15 MPH, but it's also at even higher speeds than we're achieving with this Huayra. So dividing by 10 to get 20 HP increase would be about 1.5 MPH. Add to that the fact that the length of Route X will allow for larger differences in actual top speed, and the fact that we're about 10-15 MPH slower than the Veyron which means air resistance will be slightly less, and you get a rough guess of 2-3 MPH.

 

[SciroccoRich]

Which, in case you weren't listening, is what I just said. 2-3 MPH. Very little because it's more about aero. Veyron uses 200 more for 15 MPH, but it's also at even higher speeds than we're achieving with this Huayra. So dividing by 10 to get 20 HP increase would be about 1.5 MPH. Add to that the fact that the length of Route X will allow for larger differences in actual top speed, and the fact that we're about 10-15 MPH slower than the Veyron which means air resistance will be slightly less, and you get a rough guess of 2-3 MPH.

You can't use linear maths to guess speed increase with power. It doesn't work like that. 20 Hp won't add that amount. It'll be more like 0.2-1MPH. If that. It'll have much more to do with torque than BHP output.

 

[KinLM]

You can't use linear maths to guess speed increase with power. It doesn't work like that. 20 Hp won't add that amount. It'll be more like 0.2-1MPH. If that. It'll have much more to do with torque than BHP output.

Explain to me why I can't use linear maths to get a close guess like that?

If 200 HP adds 15 MPH at 268 MPH, then why wouldn't 20 HP add AT LEAST 1.5 MPH at 250 MPH when both cars are very aerodynamic?

Where do you get these 0.2 to 1 MPH from as well?

If the Pagani can do 230 with 730 HP, it sounds pretty aerodynamic to me. So don't say that it's because it's not aerodynamic enough. Yes te Veyron SS is extremely streamlined as well, but I don't see the C9 as being much worse, if at all. Add to that the fact that the C9 is going slower than an SS would, meaning less air resistance, and I don't see how the C9 could be any worse than 1.5 MPH better with 20 HP more.

 

[Vegard]

You can't use linear maths to guess speed increase with power. It doesn't work like that. 20 Hp won't add that amount. It'll be more like 0.2-1MPH. If that.

Yeah, it's probably better to just plain guess.

It'll have much more to do with torque than BHP output.

Quick someone call the Nobel committee, kinematics has been redefined.

20HP @ 200MPH+ is worth absolutely nothing.

20 Hp would make almost NO difference at all.

I can't wait to see your next post.

 

[KinLM]

Yeah, it's probably better to just plain guess.


Quick someone call the Nobel committee, kinematics has been redefined.



I can't wait to see your next post.

Thank you! I was worried I was going a bit crazy there for a few minutes but I'm glad to see somebody else understands that it's more reasonable to use linear math than just plain guess.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Whenever I go to bed, I check underneath to make sure the Pagani Huayara is not there.

 

[Exorcet]

Doubt it. It's much more about the aero. 20 Hp would make almost NO difference at all.

It's about the engine power required to overcome the drag power.

By my math, 20 HP gets the Pagani about 1.6 mph. Additional power vs Additional speed is not linear, but over small scales, linear is a good approximation, so KinLM's math worked out well.

 

[STiG39]

^^I second this, especially the part about that power is not linear to speed. Thats just basic physics. So no need to argue.

 

[eSZee]

Conclusion: OP is BS.

Probably, or he never updated from 1.00/1.01. First seems more likely.

 

[Logoncal21]

Probably, or he never updated from 1.00/1.01. First seems more likely.

Yeah, no.
First of all: It's not fully tuned. Heck, i didn't even modified ANY of my cars.
Second: It's a 15th anniversary model. If this is the problem, then fine
Third: It's updated to 1.04.
Fourth: It's not BS. I managed to get 290MPH at 7th gear because i raced on Like the Wind and drafted the opponents. Otherwise, i would never reach such maximum speed (The max i reached WITHOUT being the 15th anniversary model AND on time trial was 245 mph, on the same track)

 

[KinLM]

Yeah, no.
First of all: It's not fully tuned. Heck, i didn't even modified ANY of my cars.
Second: It's a 15th anniversary model. If this is the problem, then fine
Third: It's updated to 1.04.
Fourth: It's not BS. I managed to get 290MPH at 7th gear because i raced on Like the Wind and drafted the opponents. Otherwise, i would never reach such maximum speed (The max i reached WITHOUT being the 15th anniversary model AND on time trial was 245 mph, on the same track)

Then why did you make a thread saying it was turned into a monster? It clearly hasn't been because whenever you draft off of somebody it gives a big speed increase (especially in GT Land). The Huayra is no monster.

 

[eSZee]

Yeah, no.
First of all: It's not fully tuned. Heck, i didn't even modified ANY of my cars.
Second: It's a 15th anniversary model. If this is the problem, then fine
Third: It's updated to 1.04.
Fourth: It's not BS. I managed to get 290MPH at 7th gear because i raced on Like the Wind and drafted the opponents. Otherwise, i would never reach such maximum speed (The max i reached WITHOUT being the 15th anniversary model AND on time trial was 245 mph, on the same track)

I must've missed the part where you said you drafted to get 290mph. It won't make a 60mph difference, but it makes a big difference.

 

[Vegard]

I must've missed the part where you said you drafted to get 290mph. It won't make a 60mph difference, but it makes a big difference.

TBF the AE Huayra does 258 stock without a draft at SSRX as demonstrated in post #26.

 

[jr93alty]

The math going on in here is almost as bad as bro-science in the gym. I'll attempt to explain this. Coefficient of drag does not ever change for a particular shape at any speed whether it's 20mph or 200mph. Also, horsepower needed is almost directly in line with wind resistance. Wind resistance changes with the SQUARE of velocity meaning that it takes 4 times as much power to double speed (not linear). Nine times as much power to triple speed, etc... So if it takes a particular car 20 hp to go 45mph, it will take that same car approximately 80 hp to go 90mph. That's why a prius can do 100mph but it takes most cars close to 500hp to reach 200mph. So with that being said, the simple math to go from 231mph (Huayra listed top speed) to 270mph (16.88% speed increase) is 36.61% more power. In the case of the Huayra, it would need 984hp. Also, there is talk above about how slippery that car is but it is listed to have a Cd of over 0.30 which is not that impressive so I wouldn't call it slippery. And since there was arguing above about what 20hp would do to a 720hp car at 240mph so I'll try to resolve that. 740hp/720hp is an increase in power of 2.7777%. The square root of that is 1.379% which is how much the speed would increase. So a 720hp car that can do 240mph would be able to do 243.3mph with an increase of 20hp in a perfect world. Cars aren't a perfect world because tires don't have complete power transfer at these speeds so you could take some efficiency off but this is pretty close. The formula works almost perfectly for airplanes. Also, the track and tires doesn't matter much in terms of top speeds so you shouldn't bring up the "perfectness" of SSRX. Tracks simply need to be smooth to maintain stability and tires mostly need to be able to handle the high amount of heat that a high speed run puts on them. Most other issues in terms of traction are negligible when compared to the immense force that wind resistance is putting on the car. And do you really think 200+mph high speed runs in real life aren't "perfect". There are engineers everywhere, the track is swept, weather is monitored, etc...SSRX means nothing.

 

[KinLM]

The math going on in here is almost as bad as bro-science in the gym. I'll attempt to explain this. Coefficient of drag does not ever change for a particular shape at any speed whether it's 20mph or 200mph. Also, horsepower needed is almost directly in line with wind resistance. Wind resistance changes with the SQUARE of velocity meaning that it takes 4 times as much power to double speed (not linear). Nine times as much power to triple speed, etc... So if it takes a particular car 20 hp to go 45mph, it will take that same car approximately 80 hp to go 90mph. That's why a prius can do 100mph but it takes most cars close to 500hp to reach 200mph. So with that being said, the simple math to go from 231mph (Huayra listed top speed) to 270mph (16.88% speed increase) is 36.61% more power. In the case of the Huayra, it would need 984hp. Also, there is talk above about how slippery that car is but it is listed to have a Cd of over 0.30 which is not that impressive so I wouldn't call it slippery. And since there was arguing above about what 20hp would do to a 720hp car at 240mph so I'll try to resolve that. 740hp/720hp is an increase in power of 2.7777%. The square root of that is 1.379% which is how much the speed would increase. So a 720hp car that can do 240mph would be able to do 243.3mph with an increase of 20hp in a perfect world. Cars aren't a perfect world because tires don't have complete power transfer at these speeds so you could take some efficiency off but this is pretty close. The formula works almost perfectly for airplanes. Also, the track and tires doesn't matter much in terms of top speeds so you shouldn't bring up the "perfectness" of SSRX. Tracks simply need to be smooth to maintain stability and tires mostly need to be able to handle the high amount of heat that a high speed run puts on them. Most other issues in terms of traction are negligible when compared to the immense force that wind resistance is putting on the car. And do you really think 200+mph high speed runs in real life aren't "perfect". There are engineers everywhere, the track is swept, weather is monitored, etc...SSRX means nothing.

When I was talking about the "perfectness" of SSRX I was talking about how ideally long it is, and how no track in real life can match it's length other than Ehra Lessiens which isn't exactly available to most companies.

 

[SciroccoRich]

The math going on in here is almost as bad as bro-science in the gym. I'll attempt to explain this. Coefficient of drag does not ever change for a particular shape at any speed whether it's 20mph or 200mph. Also, horsepower needed is almost directly in line with wind resistance. Wind resistance changes with the SQUARE of velocity meaning that it takes 4 times as much power to double speed (not linear). Nine times as much power to triple speed, etc... So if it takes a particular car 20 hp to go 45mph, it will take that same car approximately 80 hp to go 90mph. That's why a prius can do 100mph but it takes most cars close to 500hp to reach 200mph. So with that being said, the simple math to go from 231mph (Huayra listed top speed) to 270mph (16.88% speed increase) is 36.61% more power. In the case of the Huayra, it would need 984hp. Also, there is talk above about how slippery that car is but it is listed to have a Cd of over 0.30 which is not that impressive so I wouldn't call it slippery. And since there was arguing above about what 20hp would do to a 720hp car at 240mph so I'll try to resolve that. 740hp/720hp is an increase in power of 2.7777%. The square root of that is 1.379% which is how much the speed would increase. So a 720hp car that can do 240mph would be able to do 243.3mph with an increase of 20hp in a perfect world. Cars aren't a perfect world because tires don't have complete power transfer at these speeds so you could take some efficiency off but this is pretty close. The formula works almost perfectly for airplanes. Also, the track and tires doesn't matter much in terms of top speeds so you shouldn't bring up the "perfectness" of SSRX. Tracks simply need to be smooth to maintain stability and tires mostly need to be able to handle the high amount of heat that a high speed run puts on them. Most other issues in terms of traction are negligible when compared to the immense force that wind resistance is putting on the car. And do you really think 200+mph high speed runs in real life aren't "perfect". There are engineers everywhere, the track is swept, weather is monitored, etc...SSRX means nothing.

Exactly my point. To use linear maths in a situation like this is just ad good as having a guess. There are so many different forces at work that to use maths as simple as previously used doesn't work.

 

[YZF]

The math going on in here is almost as bad as bro-science in the gym. I'll attempt to explain this. Coefficient of drag does not ever change for a particular shape at any speed whether it's 20mph or 200mph. Also, horsepower needed is almost directly in line with wind resistance. Wind resistance changes with the SQUARE of velocity meaning that it takes 4 times as much power to double speed (not linear). Nine times as much power to triple speed, etc... So if it takes a particular car 20 hp to go 45mph, it will take that same car approximately 80 hp to go 90mph. That's why a prius can do 100mph but it takes most cars close to 500hp to reach 200mph. So with that being said, the simple math to go from 231mph (Huayra listed top speed) to 270mph (16.88% speed increase) is 36.61% more power. In the case of the Huayra, it would need 984hp. Also, there is talk above about how slippery that car is but it is listed to have a Cd of over 0.30 which is not that impressive so I wouldn't call it slippery. And since there was arguing above about what 20hp would do to a 720hp car at 240mph so I'll try to resolve that. 740hp/720hp is an increase in power of 2.7777%. The square root of that is 1.379% which is how much the speed would increase. So a 720hp car that can do 240mph would be able to do 243.3mph with an increase of 20hp in a perfect world. Cars aren't a perfect world because tires don't have complete power transfer at these speeds so you could take some efficiency off but this is pretty close. The formula works almost perfectly for airplanes. Also, the track and tires doesn't matter much in terms of top speeds so you shouldn't bring up the "perfectness" of SSRX. Tracks simply need to be smooth to maintain stability and tires mostly need to be able to handle the high amount of heat that a high speed run puts on them. Most other issues in terms of traction are negligible when compared to the immense force that wind resistance is putting on the car. And do you really think 200+mph high speed runs in real life aren't "perfect". There are engineers everywhere, the track is swept, weather is monitored, etc...SSRX means nothing.

Amen

 

[YZF]

To anyone who thinks this is something to do with Huayra - it's NOT.

The same issue is with SL55AMG, Ferrari F40, Ford GT and a bunch of other cars. They all achieve way too higher top speed than in real life.

Maybe we should start creating a list of such cars?

 

[Exorcet]

The math going on in here is almost as bad as bro-science in the gym. I'll attempt to explain this. Coefficient of drag does not ever change for a particular shape at any speed whether it's 20mph or 200mph.

CD does change, but it's usually a small enough change to be considered constant. This is one reason why Reynold's number is so important for scale testing. If you test a scale model at the conditions of a full size model, the drag can be different and your test might be worthless.

Also, horsepower needed is almost directly in line with wind resistance.

Horsepower is power. Wind resistance is a force. Force goes up with V^2, Power goes up with V^3.

Wind resistance changes with the SQUARE of velocity meaning that it takes 4 times as much power to double speed (not linear). Nine times as much power to triple speed, etc...

It takes 8 times power to double speed and 27 times power to triple speed. Although a Veyron would require a lot more than 27000 HP to go 750 mph since at that point transonic effects will raise the CD by a huge amount.

SSRX means nothing.

This I can agree with, unless for whatever reason SSRX has a strange value for air density or something.

 

[dmcallis]

My guess based on my own tests (though not in that specific car) is that the OP is getting that speed with a multiple-draft (using at least a couple of draft cars in succession) and hitting the top speed on the downhill section of SSX under draft.

Doing this in a fully tuned MB AMG VGT, I have seen 311+, no NO2... (yes I know it is a Fantasy Car...)

As has been pointed out already, many real-world cars are speed-limited due to tires, something a game does not concern itself with (really damage of any kind, but mainly tires in this case.) so they are actually capable of higher than their "rated top speed."

In game
If you want to test top speed, you must use the back straight on SSX (where the now-missing Speed Test was using) to get sustained speed without the aid of gravity (that bridge downslope) or dirty air due to draft.
THAT is what you compare to RL...

It's still too high often, but is -more- realistic...

 

[Exorcet]

If you want to test top speed, you must use the back straight on SSX (where the now-missing Speed Test was using) to get sustained speed without the aid of gravity (that bridge downslope)

The slope down is there to lower time needed to reach max speed. You'll might not actually ever reach it if you drove on a level surface.

 

[YZF]

My guess based on my own tests (though not in that specific car) is that the OP is getting that speed with a multiple-draft (using at least a couple of draft cars in succession) and hitting the top speed on the downhill section of SSX under draft.

Doing this in a fully tuned MB AMG VGT, I have seen 311+, no NO2... (yes I know it is a Fantasy Car...)

As has been pointed out already, many real-world cars are speed-limited due to tires, something a game does not concern itself with (really damage of any kind, but mainly tires in this case.) so they are actually capable of higher than their "rated top speed."

In game
If you want to test top speed, you must use the back straight on SSX (where the now-missing Speed Test was using) to get sustained speed without the aid of gravity (that bridge downslope) or dirty air due to draft.
THAT is what you compare to RL...

It's still too high often, but is -more- realistic...

The fact that top speeds in GT5 were much more realistic compared to GT6 means that it's a coding bug or flaw.

 

[dmcallis]

We obviously have differing definitions of "top speed"... If you can use the draft and/or a downhill run, that is not a true measurement of a top speed... Or at least a different one from a logical definition...
Or perhaps I should use the term assumed when talking "Top Speed" and add "Unassisted" to the term.

PD has already said they are still working on the aero models, I believe. So they agree with all of us that the model needs work.

Right now, Flat Floors are a joke as they act as a drag chute on your top speed; the added cornering speed in no way makes up for the massive PP and top speed penalties incurred. Right now, I'd say you should NEVER use the flat floors.
And addon-aero has almost no effect on that speed, so there is no reason NOT to add it (right now) to every car you can.

Hopefully these are a couple of things the aero model fixes will indeed fix.

edit:

I just took the '13 Huarya out to SSX. It was stock, non-anniversary version. Tested using Like the Wind race 3 in ia.
Top sustained speed on level, no draft 259mph.
Top assisted speed in downhill of bridge with multiple drafts 281mph, but I could possibly get that higher if I tried...

Now I'm curious about that 270 in the OP. I'll post test results for that car as well. Give me a few minutes...

The extra 19hp of the anniversary edition takes the unassisted sustained top speed to 260mph.
A slightly better draft downhill (again could be better) showed 284mph.

From experience, I know I could with little trouble getting better than 280mph with a draft without the slope out of this car, for reference, so the drafts in these tests were not that good, but are illustrative of the effects.

 

[Logoncal21]

Great, now i'm looking like an idiot. ><

 

[jr93alty]

CD does change, but it's usually a small enough change to be considered constant. This is one reason why Reynold's number is so important for scale testing. If you test a scale model at the conditions of a full size model, the drag can be different and your test might be worthless.


Horsepower is power. Wind resistance is a force. Force goes up with V^2, Power goes up with V^3.


It takes 8 times power to double speed and 27 times power to triple speed. Although a Veyron would require a lot more than 27000 HP to go 750 mph since at that point transonic effects will raise the CD by a huge amount.


This I can agree with, unless for whatever reason SSRX has a strange value for air density or something.

Thanks for the correction on power relation. However, Reynold's number is mostly for scaling, not for comparing the same car at different speeds. Scaling is important because turbulence occurs earlier on smaller items that change shape faster. That's why a Prius C can't get the same highway mileage as a longer full Prius. Slower line changes cause less drag. Same idea with a "fastback" versus a normal rear windshield. When comparing two identically shaped items, the Reynolds number doesn't matter, especially at the speeds that cars travel. But an engineering discussion isn't that valuable right now. It's just sad that GT6 is so far off. I haven't done much high speed testing and didn't know this until recently because I'm still on Ia races and my top speed is only 207 in a modified C7.