PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

[Redneckchef]

True.

I would suggest:
- give SR Down (-3 SR) for going off track, touching a wall, spinning out.
- give minor SR up (+0.5 SR) per clean sector as is now
- give SR Up (+3 SR) per clean lap

- give SR Down (-3 SR) for contact with another car
- give minor SR up (+1 SR) for losing a position contact free (max 3 per race not to encourage pulling over and letting everyone pass to farm SR)
- give SR Up (+3 SR) for contact free overtake of similar DR rank or higher (max 3 per race not to make starting last the best way to farm SR or playing leap frog)

This will mitigate the negative effect of avoiding a car and losing SR, while rewarding clean driving.
The SR Down for going off track is absorbed by the SR up for the contact free pass. Yet with a limit of 3, don't make it a habit.
If you spin out or run off track while avoiding a car and get passed by half the field, -3 SR for spinning out, 3 x +1 SR for getting passed without contact.
So you have some leeway to avoid cars instead of making it equal or better to simply hit them.

Keep the ignoring track limits penalties though, pass on the grass should still be discouraged even if it's to avoid another car in trouble. Yet if it is to avoid that car (and you thus pass it) you won't lose SR. And if you slow down while avoiding, the shortcut penalty won't trigger either.

This still won't stop the yoyo effect, drop SR, easier race, pole to flag victory, back to SR.S. Yet combined with better matchmaking (max 3 SR groups) and no more DR resets those easier races to farm SR back should be a thing of the past.

That leaves the issue of simply driving behind to farm SR in exchange for DR. Higher DR should come with more rewards instead of more punishment. Higher payouts, and smaller contact trigger before penalties and SR Down contact shows. It's upside down now where low DR can hit high DR and high DR gets the most blame. Minor contact should be discouraged at low DR, yet at the blistering pace A+ drives at, minor contact is usually fine and both drivers have enough control to anticipate and stay on the road. The problem of high DR bowling low DR out of the way won't be effected since the force with that speed difference will still be high enough to trigger penalties. Make it rewarding to maintain high DR instead of a curse in daily SR.S races.

Perhaps with all that we don't need time penalties for contact and the SR system will be able to sort the drivers more effectively. Of course time penalties for straight up punts (the easy to detect cases) should still be there as well as -10 SR for such infractions. Contact with very large force, use @Voodoovaj's suggestion to look who is more aligned with the racing line and/or more within the speed range for that section of track at the moment of collision. Dive bombs and revenge punts should be easy to detect.

If the above works, it can be further refined by looking at leaving space requirements to stop people gently pushing each other off the road or against a wall. Not that hard to detect either, 2 cars side by side with less than a foot of space in between, one car goes off or against a wall, other car was not leaving enough room. SR Down can trigger while not even touching a car, crowding off track penalty. But that's for later.

I am thinking we just about keep the penalty system as it is, but we have to add some kind of penalty for the actual punts. Not sure how it would calculate but definitely need something there. Plus just give SR down for any contact. I have been keeping the phone handy to check on crazy and reckless drivers I see. Almost all of them are new entrants to SR S, of people who have seen it only randomly in their career. So they are thinking hard contact and bumping is how you race.

Several times I got barged wide or bump passed on turns at Sardegna if not completely run off track. When I get back to them if I see they have been doing it to others I am wary, but ready to fight it. Twice I got called dirty for taking a clean pass and then defending the inside line next turns. With them not having much race craft I was a filthy blocker because I didn't just let them past last lap and prepared for their hits before they got them. Soon they will have to get some sort of penalties back though. The lobbies last night were getting nasty by the time I left.

 

[CrimsonKing]

After a couple of races with this new penalty system and with the inevitable dirty drivers I've just confirmed that for some strange reason I get more frustrated when a race is ruined by the penalty system than by dirty drivers. So I embrace this new system.

 

[Tea_Leaves]

What I like most about the new system is that when you do have clean races, they stand out more. I think it's nice to race with people who are naturally clean and want clean races like you, me and everyone here. It's a similar atmosphere to racing in leagues/lobbies.

On the other hand, the dirty and ugly stick out like a sore thumb. Today for example, I was smashed into the pit wall at DTS, no chance of a recovery in a short race, 10s behind 15th place so left. Perpetrator gets nothing which I don't feel is right. It's two extremes for me.

 

[Kiki_Haoru]

Got pushed out of track in the first lap of Race A by some Italian dude, who didn't get anything for his move.
Caught up with him in the last lap, gave him his change back. Got a 1 sec penalty. I luckily did not lose any position (thanks to the penalty zone being a braking zone anyway...) And this thug rage quit, so I think I benefited from the experience

 

[Dorofint]

It's bad today. I am constantly divebombed or rammed. But it's Monday, many drivers don't know the routes well yet. Let's see how it develops over the course of the week.

 

[Keith2324]

It's bad today. I am constantly divebombed or rammed. But it's Monday, many drivers don't know the routes well yet. Let's see how it develops over the course of the week.

I'm afraid that argument doesn't hold water. These aren't new tracks so people should be more than familiar with them. Anyone with B/S rank or better should know how to drive cleanly. Some people are driving badly because they know they can get away with it.

Keith.

 

[larrybr07n]

Mine might be a very controversial opinion and please, take it for what it is, an opinion not a fact.

If I were PD, I would do couple of things. Add decimals to SR ranking to better fine tune different gains or losses, somehow link SR to mileage driven to make sure you've driven a lot before you reach the top and in theory have more experience and finally, and this might be very controversial, introduce paid season passes for either FIA or 1 weekly race alongside the free ones. Probably non serious drivers won't pay on top of their PS Plus subscription to race.

 

[WheelmanSteve]

I actually HAD a B/S rank before this started...

 

[breeminator]

finally, and this might be very controversial, introduce paid season passes for either FIA or 1 weekly race alongside the free ones. Probably non serious drivers won't pay on top of their PS Plus subscription to race.

You know what, if that paid for humans to examine every single incident report from the paid races, like iRacing, it might be worth it.

 

[oneloops]

Mine might be a very controversial opinion and please, take it for what it is, an opinion not a fact.

If I were PD, I would do couple of things. Add decimals to SR ranking to better fine tune different gains or losses, somehow link SR to mileage driven to make sure you've driven a lot before you reach the top and in theory have more experience and finally, and this might be very controversial, introduce paid season passes for either FIA or 1 weekly race alongside the free ones. Probably non serious drivers won't pay on top of their PS Plus subscription to race.

Paid season passes is not the solution IMO. Dirty people enjoy their way for win in a free pass or ina paid one.

The only way is penalizing all contact : -SR and damage in every little contact and a lot for hard contact.

No risk, no worries "racing".

Risk is the most important thing to prevent incidents.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I just did 2 races at DT: Seaside and while getting matched with only A+, A and S drivers, dirty moves still happened. Don't let anyone get on your inside, hardly anyone even thinks about leaving room anymore. The classic use car as guard rail pass was in full effect, or rather I have the inside why should I share the corner. Much less risk on this track than on the Nordschleife with dirty moves. Thus the race transforms into who can enter the corner from the furthest inside...

Still very few incidents happened, that I saw. I couldn't really keep up now my DR is above my pace due to doing well on the Nordschleife. Yet I still got barge passed by the usual suspects and saw a couple murders at the bus stop. People also left very quickly after the race.

It is Monday, but DT seaside is not a new track, nor are the A+ A and S drivers racing on it new to the game. However despite the not respectful racing, far less chaos than in A+/S to D/S rooms on a regular Monday. I'll do some races in the morning tomorrow, see how it compares to a regular morning.

 

[barak181]

When I get back to them if I see they have been doing it to others I am wary, but ready to fight it. Twice I got called dirty for taking a clean pass and then defending the inside line next turns. With them not having much race craft I was a filthy blocker because I didn't just let them past last lap and prepared for their hits before they got them. Soon they will have to get some sort of penalties back though. The lobbies last night were getting nasty by the time I left.

This more than anything adds more proof to the need for a licensing exam in racecraft before people are allowed to race online in Sport mode. The amount of people who legitimately think you need to get out of their way because they're faster is kind of mind blowing.

 

[NoStopN]

I just did 2 races at DT: Seaside and while getting matched with only A+, A and S drivers, dirty moves still happened. Don't let anyone get on your inside, hardly anyone even thinks about leaving room anymore. The classic use car as guard rail pass was in full effect, or rather I have the inside why should I share the corner. Much less risk on this track than on the Nordschleife with dirty moves. Thus the race transforms into who can enter the corner from the furthest inside..

Guilty. I was able to get my car to turn farther inside than many other drivers. Only one incident of off track travels. I fully expected a penalty, but none arrived. I have gotten some questionable track cutting penalties even while staying on the red stuff.

 

[Dorofint]

I'm afraid that argument doesn't hold water. These aren't new tracks so people should be more than familiar with them. Anyone with B/S rank or better should know how to drive cleanly. Some people are driving badly because they know they can get away with it.

Keith.

Basically, you are right. Most drivers know the route very well. But there are things that change like the penalty system and the track limits. Monday and Tuesday are the days when many drivers test these limits. How far can they cut the curve or chicane? What maneuvers can they do without getting a penalty? PD would have to be consistent and strict with these things, then there would be no such testing of the limits. But that's exactly what PD doesn't want.

 

[Krypton78]

Racing is not for everybody. Take the controller in your hands, turn the console on and just jump in to have fun. Thats what people think it should be. But thats not Motorsports. In Motorsports it has major consequences if you are not practiced and dont stick to the rules. Because your car is a weapon in the same time for yourself and for others. If you are not well enogh skilled and sportsman, you'll inevitable harm others.
As I mentioned before, with that philosophy of Sony/ PD that the more poeple join the better it is and the accordingly construction of sportmode its only enjoyable for the elite in the top 2 or 3 splits at most. For the rest its frustration in long term.

The accsess to the races have to be restricted as similair to iRacing. In form of monthly paid money and/ or proving high enough track skills+rule knowledge (not easy to get and maintain licenses which are connected to race behaving as well (count incident involvements)). But that would rule 90% of the participiants out because of at least one of the conditions. You can take the best penalty system or implement whatever best algorithm for matchmaking, as long as the participiants are not well enough skilled (for example braking/ turning under slipstream/ cold tyres) plus don't have the fear of losing their access to future races and/ or fear of wasting money it will not change enough to enjoy the game.

Thats the brutal truth in my opinion.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

Racing is not for everybody. Take the controller in your hands, turn the console on and just jump in to have fun. Thats what people think it should be. But thats not Motorsports. In Motorsports it has major consequences if you are not practiced and dont stick to the rules. Because your car is a weapon in the same time for yourself and for others. If you are not well enogh skilled and sportsman, you'll inevitable harm others.
As I mentioned before, with that philosophy of Sony/ PD that the more poeple join the better it is and the accordingly construction of sportmode its only enjoyable for the elite in the top 2 or 3 splits at most. For the rest its frustration in long term.

The accsess to the races have to be restricted as similair to iRacing. In form of monthly paid money and/ or proving high enough track skills+rule knowledge (not easy to get and maintain licenses which are connected to race behaving as well (count incident involvements)). But that would rule 90% of the participiants out because of at least one of the conditions. You can take the best penalty system or implement whatever best algorithm for matchmaking, as long as the participiants are not well enough skilled (for example braking/ turning under slipstream/ cold tyres) plus don't have the fear of losing their access to future races and/ or fear of wasting money it will not change enough to enjoy the game.

Thats the brutal truth in my opinion.

Then I suggest you play iRacing. It will never be like that with GTS. Sony and PD Want the big player base (so do I)

 

[Krypton78]

Then I suggest you play iRacing. It will never be like that with GTS.

No I don't. I started online racing with GT Sport, never did before and not tried the others.

Sony and PD Want the big player base (so do I)

Yes, in principle it sounds like a major cool project to collect hundreds of thousands of players and bring them the experience of racing. But my oppinion is it doesn't work if there is no restriction in access to ensure proper behaviour.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

No I don't. I started online racing with GT Sport, never did before and not tried the others.



Yes, in principle it sounds like a major cool project to collect hundreds of thousands of players and bring them the experience of racing. But my oppinion is it doesn't work if there is no restriction in access to ensure proper behaviour.

That totally depends on the object of the game. If it's to provide clean racing you are right. If it's to make money you are wrong.

 

[Mirror_man]

Solving this issue, or at least improving racing behaviour... would be achieved by doing several implementations, that I suggest:

- 1st reverting back to the initial (1st 1 or 2 months) GTS Penalty System, including penalties for contact with other cars and going out of track, of course...
- More: just like on PC2, and aditionally, when you pass someone using a "shortcut" (more then 2 wheels out of track limits) there will be given 30 sec countdown for you to revert back to previous race position, or else you´ll have a fixed time penalization at the end of the race (and the penalization will be even bigger on subsequent equal issues... and if done repeatidly setting of a Black Flag given as a "prize"... (there should also be a time penalization as previously for going beyond track limits, of course)
- When during race, you establish your 3rd penalization (for car contact with other player or going out of track) in a row (and from them on 6th, 9th and so on.. eachtime you acumulate 3 penalizations in a row in same race) all acumulated time penalisation given for contact or exceding track limits, would have to be performed with a drive through Pits, with automatic car imobilization for the acumulated time penalization, to be done at the end of that same lap, or else a Black Flag would also be shown!
- Aditionaly... for those that drop from any SR level (like droping from A to B, B to C, and so on... ), they should be obliged to repeat a serious number of racing challenges (and time consuming too..., inclusively all GTS Online racing players should have to complete those same challenges, for being allowed to race online...) on those racing challenges the main aim is to achieve one of the 3 st places at the end of it, without contact with the AI cars... nor going out of track,,,

I´m sure that implementing, if not all this, at least some of it... would change everyone´s racing behaviour...

 

[RacingGrandpa]

Solving this issue, or at least improving racing behaviour... would be achieved by doing several implementations, that I suggest:

- 1st reverting back to the initial (1st 1 or 2 months) GTS Penalty System, including penalties for contact with other cars and going out of track, of course...
- More: just like on PC2, and aditionally, when you pass someone using a "shortcut" (more then 2 wheels out of track limits) there will be given 30 sec countdown for you to revert back to previous race position, or else you´ll have a fixed time penalization at the end of the race (and the penalization will be even bigger on subsequent equal issues... and if done repeatidly setting of a Black Flag given as a "prize"... (there should also be a time penalization as previously for going beyond track limits, of course)
- When during race, you establish your 3rd penalization (for car contact with other player or going out of track) in a row (and from them on 6th, 9th and so on.. eachtime you acumulate 3 penalizations in a row in same race) all acumulated time penalisation given for contact or exceding track limits, would have to be performed with a drive through Pits, with automatic car imobilization for the acumulated time penalization, to be done at the end of that same lap, or else a Black Flag would also be shown!
- Aditionaly... for those that drop from any SR level (like droping from A to B, B to C, and so on... ), they should be obliged to repeat a serious number of racing challenges (and time consuming too..., inclusively all GTS Online racing players should have to complete those same challenges, for being allowed to race online...) on those racing challenges the main aim is to achieve one of the 3 st places at the end of it, without contact with the AI cars... nor going out of track,,,

I´m sure that implementing, if not all this, at least some of it... would change everyone´s racing behaviour...

I believe you are right. But a side effect of this would be the dropping off of the entire casual player base. That is something nobody wants, not even us that want clean racing.

 

[Mirror_man]

I believe you are right. But a side effect of this would be the dropping off of the entire casual player base. That is something nobody wants, not even us that want clean racing.

Actually I ´m not so sure about "dropping off of the entire casual player base. being something that "nobody wants", specially when you´re talking about those of "us that want clean racing", and you are forgetting something trully important: on the last year there's an enormous number of players, that initially were those that trully filled the dailly races (and they were in no way, "casual players"...), that "left the building", with this increasing "piece of ... " that GTS Penalization system as become, and I´m quite sure that they would gladly return to dayllies massively... if things would change to what they expected to be, when they started playing GTS... (by the way... I´m one of such bundle...)

But even so... for those that would like to play online "casually" you could have the actual mode left just like it is... for them to play... and so and aditional Mode: - Let´s call it: "Racing Pro" with some of those suggested implementations.. should be added for the serious players that during these years have been temendously ignored by PD ...

 

[Racer294]

What I dont see here,in this forum, is dirty drivers. Defending what they do. With that said, it seems the ones that are the most guilty, they dont even know, or care that this is a problem. They are probably assuming that they are getting better! They will not change or ever actually improve their skills.
The penalty system needs another redo or revert to an older model.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

Regarding the loss of the casual player base :

There's about 8 M sold copies of GTS right now.
According to Kudosprime 95 percent of the players have never or hardly ever raced in Sport Mode ( SM is what we talk about, right ) !
Only 5 percent of the player base would be affected at all by a more serious Sport Mode. I'd say driving away some of them wasn't a big disaster in the grand scheme of things. And that ... is just an assumption - fact is nobody knows because nobody ever tried.

 

[Mirror_man]

Regarding the loss of the casual player base :

There's about 8 M sold copies of GTS right now.
According to Kudosprime 95 percent of the players have never or hardly ever raced in Sport Mode ( SM is what we talk about, right ) !
Only 5 percent of the player base would be affected at all by a more serious Sport Mode. I'd say driving away some of them wasn't a big disaster in the grand scheme of things. And that ... is just an assumption - fact is nobody knows because nobody ever tried.

So.. I guess my sugestion may not be that stupid...

 

[VFOURMAX1]

I believe you are right. But a side effect of this would be the dropping off of the entire casual player base. That is something nobody wants, not even us that want clean racing.

If the SR classification worked as it should you would not be dropping any of the player base that actually wants to play sport mode. You would only be placing the racers in races with other like minded racers as themselves.

Clean racers would be in class that consisted of clean racing and would take an effort to consistently race clean to not only reach that classification but to also remain there.

The rubbin and rammin crowd likewise would be grouped together and let the carnage begin while not affecting those that prefer tactical non contact passes and competition.

Everybody gets exactly what they want out of the game except those that enjoy mainly just screwing up someone else's desired experience.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Solving this issue, or at least improving racing behaviour... would be achieved by doing several implementations, that I suggest:

- 1st reverting back to the initial (1st 1 or 2 months) GTS Penalty System, including penalties for contact with other cars and going out of track, of course...
- More: just like on PC2, and aditionally, when you pass someone using a "shortcut" (more then 2 wheels out of track limits) there will be given 30 sec countdown for you to revert back to previous race position, or else you´ll have a fixed time penalization at the end of the race (and the penalization will be even bigger on subsequent equal issues... and if done repeatidly setting of a Black Flag given as a "prize"... (there should also be a time penalization as previously for going beyond track limits, of course)
- When during race, you establish your 3rd penalization (for car contact with other player or going out of track) in a row (and from them on 6th, 9th and so on.. eachtime you acumulate 3 penalizations in a row in same race) all acumulated time penalisation given for contact or exceding track limits, would have to be performed with a drive through Pits, with automatic car imobilization for the acumulated time penalization, to be done at the end of that same lap, or else a Black Flag would also be shown!
- Aditionaly... for those that drop from any SR level (like droping from A to B, B to C, and so on... ), they should be obliged to repeat a serious number of racing challenges (and time consuming too..., inclusively all GTS Online racing players should have to complete those same challenges, for being allowed to race online...) on those racing challenges the main aim is to achieve one of the 3 st places at the end of it, without contact with the AI cars... nor going out of track,,,

I´m sure that implementing, if not all this, at least some of it... would change everyone´s racing behaviour...

How about instead of forcing people to do racing challenges (never gonna work with the crap AI of GTS, it only teaches bad behavior) make it optional to advance to higher SR. When you reach the requirements to advance, high enough SR and for example a couple clean races in a row, explain what will be expected from you in the higher SR bracket and risks when dropping out (for example 10% loss of your DR instead of huge DR resets, and having to meet the requirements again). If you decline you simply stay in your current SR bracket and keep enjoying racing with the rules there.

Not everyone wants to race clean, automatically advancing them to SR.S and expecting them to behave will never work.

For that a 3 tier SR system would be best to give matchmaking a good pool to match from:

0-29 SR, the beginner league, lenient contact penalties, max ghosting (as is in SR.E now), minor shortcut penalties, minor wall penalties
After a penalty free race putting you over 30 SR, ask if you want to advance to amateur league, otherwise cap at 29 SR

30-64 SR, the amateur league, more strict contact penalties, normal ghosting, minor shortcut penalties, normal wall penalties
After a contact free clean race bonus putting you over 65 SR, ask if you want to advance to pro league, otherwise cap at 64 SR

64-99 SR, the pro league, no ghosting, no resets, minor damage in A/B (self repairing), full damage in C (need to pit), no contact penalties, SR Down for leaving track, medium contact with other cars, spinning out, touching walls. Minor shortcut penalties, no wall penalties (damage)

Basically the amateur league is what we had before the patch screwed it all up, while a pro league replaces the penalties with damage while deducting SR for being out of control.

 

[Leggacy]

I am thinking we just about keep the penalty system as it is, but we have to add some kind of penalty for the actual punts. Not sure how it would calculate but definitely need something there. Plus just give SR down for any contact. I have been keeping the phone handy to check on crazy and reckless drivers I see. Almost all of them are new entrants to SR S, of people who have seen it only randomly in their career. So they are thinking hard contact and bumping is how you race.

Several times I got barged wide or bump passed on turns at Sardegna if not completely run off track. When I get back to them if I see they have been doing it to others I am wary, but ready to fight it. Twice I got called dirty for taking a clean pass and then defending the inside line next turns. With them not having much race craft I was a filthy blocker because I didn't just let them past last lap and prepared for their hits before they got them. Soon they will have to get some sort of penalties back though. The lobbies last night were getting nasty by the time I left.

Nice idea but how does the system know if the guy in front didn’t brake check you? I accidentally punted a car on my last race because he hit the brakes way too early, I couldn’t avoid him. Also I got punted in the same race by another car who came in to the corner too hot, no one got a penalty for it.

 

[Keith2324]

Basically, you are right. Most drivers know the route very well. But there are things that change like the penalty system and the track limits. Monday and Tuesday are the days when many drivers test these limits. How far can they cut the curve or chicane? What maneuvers can they do without getting a penalty? PD would have to be consistent and strict with these things, then there would be no such testing of the limits. But that's exactly what PD doesn't want.

IMO the penalty system is irrelevant. Simply put, don't hit anyone, period. As far as the track limits go, I am all for people trying trying to figure out the "boundaries" of the track. But that is not what's going on here. Track limits weren't the case when prior to the last update everyone knew you couldn't bump-draft. But as soon as it was taken off, everyone was trying to do it. Even the top guys. Go back and look at the Tokyo streams. And the ones' who don't know how to do it properly were bump-drafting people straight into a wall. As much as I would like to blame it all on the penalty system, I can't. Bad drivers will always be that, BAD DRIVERS!

 

[ROCKET JOE]

... As much as I would like to blame it all on the penalty system, I can't. Bad drivers will always be that, BAD DRIVERS!

And it comes down to one question again and again : How do you sort the mess ?

 

[Keith2324]

And it comes down to one question again and again : How do you sort the mess ?

I don't know how to sort it out. But I can say this. In one of my recent races I was taken out by someone and all I saw was red. So I in-turn decided to retaliate. I didn't care about my rating, his\her rating or anyone else's' rating around me who managed to get caught up in our shenanigans. But after that I decided no more. If I get taken out, so be it. I don't want my name and "reputation" associated with being a bad and malicious driver. So no more for me. If I come in last every race, oh well. Maybe if we police ourselves, we won't have to try to police everyone else.

Keith.