PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by Gareth davies, Jun 4, 2018.

  1. Krypton78

    Krypton78

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    Thats the big question.

    Everything else is riding a dead horse. Still my two favorites as the least worse versions (but still bad):

    shared penalties-> everybody involved in a contact gets the same penalty no matter what

    or

    this one now, no penalties at all (except for track limits)
     
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  2. Voodoovaj

    Voodoovaj

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    We all said it (somewhat sarcastically) that no system was better than the system before 1.54. That's what we got! Frankly, it IS better. The biggest issue, seriously, is that PD have poorly managed the expectation. All they needed to do was post something in the release notes that said the collision penalties are disabled in Sport Mode as they address the concerns.

    Now that I figured this is what is happening, I'm actually quite pleased. Yes, we all have to deal with some griefers, but at least we can punt them into the netherworld. Others who were overly aggressive an benefiting from the last version can now be dealt with through reciprocal action.


    And BEHOLD someone else sees!! This is EXACTLY the problem we've been clamoring over for months (years?). Someone. for some far to complex reason, thinks that different ranks should play by different rules, which leads to the obvious calamity that comes with a room full of mixed ranks.



    Hopefully, they are going back to the drawing board and taking all of our suggestions into account on the next iteration.
     
  3. nuu1212

    nuu1212 (Banned)

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    That's right, but for a different reason.

    A penalty system has three main jobs:
    1. Be consistent
    2. Don't be ridiculous (aka piece of ****)
    3. Punish bad behaviour

    The 1.54 update is the first to satisfy 2/3 !

    These developers have achieved legendary status for me - just beyond ridiculous.
    I wish someone would say this to the face of Kaz.
     
  4. WheelmanSteve

    WheelmanSteve

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    Couple of thoughts as we go along:
    • I ran DTS last night, and it wasn't too bad, at least earlier in the evening. Mix was mostly USA/CAN, low "C". I was running mid 1:48's for reference.
    • The racing got rougher later on- high C with some B. I thought the higher DR meant better driving? Hmmm.
    • Does anyone "spoof" their flag? Lately it seems like showing the Stars & Stripes makes you a target. (See previous item...)
    • I have just started assuming I'm going to hit, and driving to avoid it. There are some great drivers out there, and I really enjoy racing (well, mostly chasing...) them. For the rest, if shoving me out of the way makes you happy, fine.
    • Knowing I won't get a penalty for a little contact makes it EASIER to anticipate and avoid the wreckers, and also easier to deal with the stupid stuff like sideswipes and brake checks. I'm not going to descend to that level but I am going to defend my position. I'm not going to hit back, but if I can steer into the shove, I can stay on the track, at least. If I sense a dive bomb coming, I just brake a touch early and let them hit the wall instead of me.
    • Did the collision inertia physics get a little more robust, or am I just reacting better when I get bumped?
    • Door numbering need to be randomized from say, 20 to 99, and clearly explained as such. Tired of being a target just because I have a single digit door number.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  5. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens Premium

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    The game knows where to brake to make the corner. There is some leeway of course, but braking too far before the braking zone or too much can easily be detected. Of course the tricky part is, the car ahead might be braking for someone else's screw up in front of him. It's easier to detect coming in too hot to make the corner, but not all that difficult to detect a brake check with clear road ahead.

    Frequency of contact, measured over time to determine SR.

    Or SR Down for any contact (shared blame) cutting track, going wide, spinning out, touching walls.
    That will sort the careful in control drivers from the reckless without needing any penalties.

    I did a couple Sardegna races this morning, yep T1 is a problem without penalties. Also saw someone cutting the final corner repeatedly, just going full speed gaining lots of time while the 0.5 sec penalty before the left turn hardly takes any of the gains back. Coming in too hot and making contact should still result in a penalty. Go too fast into a corner, hit a car, 10 sec, go wide, 5 sec. Brake on time! I also saw someone get rammed into the pit in the final lap.

    Then I did a couple Dragon trail races. Defend the inside to the death. It was all A+ to A drivers and still pretty decent but stuff happened there as well of course. It's less messy since the offenders don't get put behind again at the penalty zone to do it again... Penalties are needed but penalty zones only create more mess, add penalties at the end.

    Oh and add a 10 sec penalty for hand brake spin across the finish line causing a yellow flag.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
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  6. Voodoovaj

    Voodoovaj

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    There is a massive depth of knowledge and ability in the game industry. A game developer's job IS to make what was considered impossible, possible.

    Gran Turismo, the original, made headlines for a single "impossibility" . The cars had reflections at a time when reflections were considered impossible. They were the first. I remember standing around with a dev team trying to reverse engineer what they did by watching replays over and over. They weren't actually reflecting anything. They were moving a transparency over the surface of the car and it looked like a reflections.

    We sorted it out, as did the entire industry, and that became the way for a long time. Reflections are done in various ways now, but that original concept is sometimes still used.

    Sorting out all the little things that we would like to have sorted is not impossible. They merely chose a poor direction. Hopefully, something better is coming. There is still too many hot heads out there. People retaliating for minor bumps with major ones, etc, etc.

    There needs to be limits to contact, but as I said, this is still better than the nonsense we had.
     
  7. JohnnyMac

    JohnnyMac

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    Fixed that for you. ;)

    I got into a messaging back and forth argument after a race at Suzuka with a guy...we were going down the front stretch, I drafted up on him, presented my inside move clearly well in advance of the corner, my front end was up past his door when he turned into the corner like a qualy lap, like I wasn't even there. Naturally, he got bounced of the track, I finished 2nd, with a 1 second penalty. He messaged me right after the race crying and cursing. I calmly tried to explain (over and over) about "giving room". He just ABSOLUTELY wouldn't/couldn't understand the concept. I even tried including replays of the event, and an instance where I was on the outside on the same track/same corner and the same situation with a different driver/car on the inside, gave room, and we both made through the corner to fight another day.

    All I got in return was endless profanity and tears. Finally had to block him.

    I think I still have that exchange on my PS4...it was hilarious, and sad/problematic all at the same time. Sent it to Sony, hopefully he got his account suspended as there was plenty of rope in those messages..(likely not).

    Some people never do anything wrong.
     
  8. Racer294

    Racer294

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    That's a good edit/fix :)
     
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  9. breeminator

    breeminator

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  10. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens Premium

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    I refuse to accept an automated system is too hard and everything should be shared blame. The latest change to contact + position loss resulting in a penalty was a misstep. Instead of reverting back to the previous system and improving that, PD made the typical, throw the child out with the bath water, mistake.

    It is not hard to assign blame to a car dive bombing into a corner. It has worked in the past and can work again. It still sort of works since you don't lose the clean race bonus when getting punted off the track so the game still knows it wasn't your fault that you left the track. Now it's not always the case that the car that last contacted you is to blame, yet when that car was not hit by another car and simply started braking too late or lifted too early (easy to figure out) it's 99% certain that car is too blame.

    It takes a little pre-processing work which can be automated for the next set of daily races. For every eligible car, determine the max speed at which that car can approach a corner for every position on the track (inside to outside) and can still make that corner without leaving the track. It's a bit of data but is nothing but a static table that can be looked at when a collision occurs. (with a modifier for races with tire choice/wear) If the car behind is exceeding the max speed, at the x,y location on the track, of the car in front (some cars need to brake earlier, it's on the car behind to know this) at the time of impact, blame on the car behind. If the car in front is well below his max speed at that position with no obstructions ahead, blame on the car in front. Everything in between, shared blame.

    Other incidents mostly come down to leaving room at the apex or at corner exit. This is also not hard to define. Step one, was there overlap in the braking zone. Step two, was there overlap at turn in. Step 3, are both cars under their max speed for the corner entry (if not any contact is on the car going too fast) All 3 conditions full filled, corner has to be shared. The outside car now needs to leave at least a car width at the apex for the inside car. And the inside car needs to leave at least a car width at corner exit if the outside car doesn't fall back more than halfway. Those are normal racing rules and can be coded. All else, shared blame.

    On the straights, look at steering input and position. If one car steers into another or gently forces the car beside with their wheels off track or against a wall, assign blame. All else, shared blame.

    There are plenty clear cases that can be solved using a bit more info. However PD keeps trying to fix it with one rule to fit them all which can easily be exploited. First it was as simple as who gains a speed advantage to assign blame, hence bump drafting SR Down for car in front and SR Down for car on the outside in corners. Plus assign blame to the survivor when a car goes off road no matter what. Then it was assign blame to the one not losing a position after contact. You can't fix it with simplified rules like that, speed, position, steering input need to be looked at. As well as flag cars that come from off track and don't make a safe re-entry.

    The ghosting system can figure it out, why can't the penalty system.
     
  11. Sean YZF

    Sean YZF

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    Think I saw 1st 5 sec penalty for rear ending someone off track since the changes, T5 at DTS, 90 degree right turn. The guy was apologising afterwards. He seemed a clean driver.
     
  12. fisheye

    fisheye

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    A week ago and today...
    I had to give it some effort to gain SR, now it's up without really trying. sr.png sr1.png
     
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  13. Tea_Leaves

    Tea_Leaves

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    Unlikely it'll happen but the thought is kind of amusing. Maybe PD turned penalties off intentionally to monitor and develop a profile of players who're consistently making contact with others, ramming/punting, generally driving dirty and showing their true colors. Then when next update is released, they're grouped together with similar profiles while the clean race together. Wishful thinking but not outside the realms of possibility.
     
  14. NoStopN

    NoStopN

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    Welcome to the 2 sides of any coin. The first scenario allows for dirty drivers to "bring others down to their level". Therefore, they will ruin racing for everybody. A little bumping & shoving to slow down better drivers. The second choice there is that dirty drivers now feel invincible to getting penalties & have turned their dirty driving up to 11. However, the v1.53 system drew complaints from practically every decent driver because the dirty drivers were gaming the system in order to get the clean drivers penalized. That's the main reason why I didn't do sport mode races between 1.53 & 1.54.

    I noticed that myself on my accounts. I look like a freaking white glove spokesperson with my sudden surge up the SR ladder. Clean as a whistle. :lol:
     
  15. GTP_TO Blue

    GTP_TO Blue Premium

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    I got a 5 second penalty on DT earlier today.

    SLS in front going towards T6; the sweeping uphill esses. They go very wide as they enter and go off track to the right, I slow down a little as I can see what's gonna happen next. They hit the wall, come back on track, basically 90 degrees across the track, heading for the left hand side. They ghost then unghost as they near me. I hit their rear quarter and they go exactly where they were heading originally; into the other wall. 5 second penalty for "forcing a car off track".
     
  16. Tall Paul

    Tall Paul

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    The fix may be easier than everyone thinks. The dirty drivers do it because they can get away with it and they will always do it. Turn damage on high problem solved. Yes it will still a low tbem to punt, shove, crowd, brake check all of it. Now next thing is to set tire wear to the highest setting it would take to make 1 lap more than race distance. All of the actions the dirty drivers take really eat up tires, so they would be hard pressed to make full race.

    Now it will be horrible at first for the clean drivers because we will be the first out due to damage. And yes it will suck. But the dirty guys won't be far behind. It will take time but if they can't get to finish races they will either move on to something else or they will evolve into better drivers. My guess is they will find something else to cheat to win at.

    Paul.
     
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  17. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens Premium

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    That doesn't stop the dirty A+ and A drivers. DT: Seaside in those lobbies is now "rubbing car off the road is racing" Better have the inside or you end up dead. Punting costs you time, using a car as a guide rail saves you time. It's the new A+/A way.
     
  18. Lazybike

    Lazybike

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    I've done a few of all 3 races this week (A/S), and for me they've been clean, I've witnessed plenty of dive bomb/revenge punts, but they just seem an accepted part of the game now, I see lots of names I don't recognise in lobbies which I assume are second accounts, I still think the problems lay with us the players, rather than the penalty system, maybe doing away with DR and just rating players on qualifying times would help.
     
  19. Krypton78

    Krypton78

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    Ok. Obviously no game has a proper working system. Well, then they should have told us in the first place that Motorsports is a luck- sport obviously, say gambling. You can practise and prepare how much you want, but in the end you depend on the good will of others. But unfortunately for you the other ones are caught in a conflict of interests. Because in the same time, they are rivals and oponents.

    Imagine, before the 100m athletics sprint race starts, someone from the organizers comes to the athletics and says: "Look guys, all our referees are still drunk from yesterday, so we send them home. They wouldn't have done a proper Job anyway. Now each of you is a referee from each other. So, please don't hold or push each other! May the the most lucky one ...uhh… I mean the fastest one win! Have a nice race and thank you for your support and please continue to enjoy athletics!"
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
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  20. Kalder

    Kalder

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    I'm not the fastest driver, I'm C/S ... I can imagine the A/S rooms to be far more fair, but in a C/S race there is no point in racing anymore, literally everyone is ramming each other in those rooms, if this penalty problem persists I'll never play GT Sport's Sport mode again.
     
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  21. Andrej S

    Andrej S

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    Ok
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  22. MaxAttack

    MaxAttack Premium

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    Svenno, I love your work and respect you as the penalty king. But this is just unfair.

    I can't think of a more challenging thing - with my limited knowledge of programming - than making a racing penalty system that gets everything right the instant/moments after it happens.

    Plenty of racing incidents are really subjective in their blame. Leaving room and backing out are respectful moves that we'd expect out of good drivers but you can't force it on everyone. It's one of those things about racing that takes a long time to sink in. I mean, I'm deep into my GTS career at this point, and I'm really only beginning to understand how "slow in, fast out" actually works.

    Really, as many have mentioned before, we're talking about writing a learning algorithm that can do, in seconds, and multiple times a race without error, a job done in the real deal by multiple expert humans who will spend as much time as it takes to arrive at the correct decision.

    Honestly, if it were so easy to make this algorithm perfect, we would probably see human marshals go out the window in favour of algorithmic penalty systems for real racing. There were plenty of farcical decisions in F1 alone this year - a couple of which took hours to make.

    In my view the effort that's been made is commendable, and I respect PD for remaining flexible and trying out different things with the penalty system. However I think they understand such a fast and precise piece of machine learning is a few years away from our current technology. This is very advanced stuff that very smart people work on. I find it a little insulting to them, the notion that you don't believe it's difficult. I think they're trying really, really hard.

    The best we can do is what we've always done - what YOU've always done best on this forum. Understand the system we have, learn what it supports and where it falls short, and try to adapt our racing to play into its hands.

    I mean, that's basically what you do with rules in any sport.

    I by no means think the penalty system is done, finished, or even on an upward curve (my internet hasn't allowed me to race since before this latest change) but I absolutely think it is a very difficult programming challenge that nobody has got absolutely right, even in the real world of Motorsport.
     
  23. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

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    The main issue with the penalty system lies down within the base concept : trying to make drivers pay for their misdeeds immediately with a time penalty. This requires being able to monitor, analyze and judge every kind of racing situation on the spot.

    While it is theorically possible, it basically requires a dedicated AI running on its own machine. It requires an insane development effort and an incredible amount of computing power to run, as well as a flawless network to support it and allow for the system to work quickly enough. At least 2 of those things are not achievable with current architectures available to the general public.

    So Polyphony Digital needs to rethink the penalty system from the ground up. What's the raw, initial objective we're trying to achieve ? I think everyone will agree that goal is clean and fair racing.

    If we focus on the clean aspect, the solution is pretty simple : punish contacts. Actually they tried that before, but the way they did it didn't meet the fair aspect.

    So how do we make it fair now ? There's a bit of interpretation to do here, so at that point you have to choose a stance and state it openly and clearly. Mistakes can happen, and you can be a victim of contacts, so a margin of error needs to be defined. You can do that with a strikes system. Kinda like iRacing, although you could and should alter it to fit within GT Sport's environment. Such a system would be much simpler to program and easy to run.

    Now, you have to ensure punishments are appropriate. That's up for debate and may need a few iterations to adjust, but again, no matter what, the rules need to be stated loud and clear. Times penalties, SR penalties, online suspensions, season bans... all these should be used. Strikes could also be held for several races since GTS races can be very short, especially compared to other racing sims.

    The whole SR system could use a rework in synergy with those changes. Increase the SR range up to similar values as DR, make the S rank comparatively narrower to the other ones and make SR harder to gain (especially when you're running all alone upfront).

    Also, a proper report system would help greatly to fight those who game the system. Give a general report button at the end of the race that will allow you to temporarily save race footage so you can review incidents. Only allow reporting if the player selects a clip from that footage. Punish the player with strikes in case of false report / incident is actually his fault, to avoid the thing being flooded.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
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  24. RacingGrandpa

    RacingGrandpa

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    I think PD made this change so that we all might appreciate the next version. And I think that it will be a revert to equal penalty to both involved.
     
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  25. BaareCZ

    BaareCZ

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    Man, that sounds so beautiful it almost made me cry. :lol: Such a shame it's never going to happen. Another thing that is never going to happen is any more changes or adjustments to the penalty system. I think PD are done with it. I think they've shown us more than clearly now that they don't know how to do it. They're not gonna waste any more time and resources on something everyone will complain and whine about anyway. This new "system" doesn't negatively affect top split FIA races anymore (because the players there don't do dirty or stupid :censored:) and that was the point of the "fix".

    The rest of us is just gonna have to adjust and get used to how it is now. Under this new "system" barge passing or dive-bombing is the norm. If there's a car within 2 or 3 car lengths behind you and you're coming into a slow corner, there's a very high chance they're gonna go for it (because why the :censored: not?). And that's in high DR A, SR 99 lobbies (although everyone is now SR 99, aren't they?). In lower DR lobbies I assume it's a certainty now. Desperate and downright crazy last lap moves will now happen in any DR. Accidental late braking and rear-ending is also happening more often now with players not giving back the gained position/s. So, not really accidental. Pole position is now completely pointless because it only lasts until T1. And so on, and so on... So, as long as we have this "no-penalty system" I will never qualify for a daily race again and I don't care about my DR anymore. From now on I will only play Sport mode for fun. And no, I will not stoop to being dirty without provocation.

    We can only hope.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  26. RacingGrandpa

    RacingGrandpa

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    Well. What you say is logical but in the long run it will mean no base to recruit from to top split FIA or a top split FIA that drives just like daily races.
    And I doubt FIA will allow that to happen. (I hope)
    Also, Gran Turismo Sport is THE advertisement for future GT. And that will suffer greatly as a result. Because there is no market for yet another Forza.
     
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  27. Krypton78

    Krypton78

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    @ those who say ist very complicated to programm/ develop,
    I'm also sure it is, but before 1.53 it was almost already working in principle. It had just a few problems:

    -not punishing divebombs and to-late-brakers when victim stays on track
    -penalty when touching an already lost control car
    -punishing when even after a minor contact one of the cars leave the track


    But with 1.53 they really messed it major disastrous up, they tried to look on position gaining/ losing after a contact for example. As they saw it doesn't work at all they got into panic and turned the penalty system practically off with 1.54, probably also because of the storm which came up with 1.53.

    The problem is not only the technical challenge but the decision making inside the company is my thought. Trying something completely different with 1.53 instead of improving what was before all the time.
     
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  28. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens Premium

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    Did you read the rest of my post :) I'm not talking about a system that gets everything right. I simply want a system that gets the obvious, easy to detect things right. The rest can all be shared blame, SR Down for both.

    There is a huge area between getting everything right and getting nothing right. At the moment we are at the getting nothing right end of the scale. Before it was about 30% right / 70% wrong, due to trying to always penalize someone. Fix the obvious cases and switch to shared blame for anything that has some doubt and the system can easily be more right than wrong. That's all I'm asking for, for the penalty system to be better than flipping a coin.

    Plus falling back on shared blame when there is doubt, still discourages bad behavior or at least will deduct SR from those that drive recklessly and as a result have more incidents. Add SR Down for going wide, touching walls and losing control of the car and SR.S will become a safer place for those in control of the car.

    I have a lot of experience with programming, fuzzy logic was one of the areas I specialized in. General rules don't exist, yet you start by detecting / splitting out different situations and refine specialized rules based on percentages assigned to certain actions and observations. PD is going at it the wrong way, trying to apply a general rule to everywhere on the track. That's not how racing works, there are rules for straights, rules for braking zones and rules for corners. As well as rules for re-entering the track, rules for overtaking back markers, rules for pit entries and exits. You can't add one contact, check what happened 3 sec after rule to catch it all.

    It is just frustrating to see PD continue on this dead end path for years now while there are so many more tools in the game to detect the clear cut cases. The game can calculate when you are going too fast to make a corner, try it in SR.E (if you can ever get there again) and you get ghosted without hitting anyone. The game can detect side swipes, try it in SR.E and you get ghosted and go right through off track. The game knows when you've lost control or coming from off track, again the ghosting system kicks in, before you would get a penalty when getting clipped by a bad track re-entry or car spinning out.

    However PD still uses binary logic, car is either ghosted or not, if a car happens to clip you a split second before it ghosts, you get a penalty. Instead of binary logic, the car that loses control has an increasing chance of needing to be ghosted while the car in control has 0% chance to get ghosted. When contact occurs and one car is already 80% deemed out of control, vs a car that's totally in control, why give the in control car a penalty?

    Concepts like who is aligned more to the racing line (direction not position), more in the speed range for that section of track, position on the track, more grip before impact, are all things that can be worked with while looking at different sections of track.

    An obvious dive bomb should never result in a penalty for the victim. (Coming in too fast to the corner)
    An obvious brake check should never result in a penalty for the victim. (Braking outside braking zones with nothing ahead)
    Turning in on someone should never result in a penalty for the victim. (Overlap before turn in, both within speed range, leave room for inside car)
    Squeezing out in turns should never result in a penalty for the victim. (Overlap after apex, leave room for outside car)
    Ramming on the straight should never result in a penalty for the victim. (More misaligned with the direction of travel)
    Exiting the pit badly should never result in a penalty for the victim. (Who crossed the pit exit line)
    Getting hit by a car spinning out should never result in a penalty for the victim. (Who's car has lost more grip)
    Getting hit by a track re-entry should never result in a penalty for the victim. (Check who came from off-road, from which side, crossing road etc)

    Different rules for different situations based on where something happens and what happened before that.
    I'm confident it can be done.
     
  29. oneloops

    oneloops

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    "The first scenario allows for dirty drivers to "bring others down to their level". Therefore, they will ruin racing for everybody."

    I don't agree.

    Dirty drivers can't dedicate all their time to ruin the same people. They will always have less SR than clean drivers in a shared penalty system... so they will be excluded to race with clean drivers.

    The most important thing is that dirty drivers would never get benefit with dirty actions as it always returns the same penalty to both parts.

    I see it like car damage. Both cars get damaged at the same time and same level... more or less like in real racing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  30. Tea_Leaves

    Tea_Leaves

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    I don't know about that. To me it's a temporary measure to offset complaints surrounding light contact penalties while a more robust system is in the works. Or a testing ground to see how the community reacts to a system without collision/contact penalties.

    Kaz himself said the system is not adequate yet and I don't believe this is the intended final iteration of the system he envisioned. If it is, I'd be very surprised.
     
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