PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

Groundfish
Pens actually work pretty well EXCEPT people gaming them and EXCEPT that if you are passing in a braking zone and the guy you pass rubs AT ALL you get penalized.

What pains me is prick aliens on alt accounts on dailies who get miffed and game the system.

It’s really NOT the system, it’s the players. No honor.
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Pens work pretty well... As long as you don't get any, yep they do!
 
O604
I imagine Daily Races are kind of like going to a real circuit. Sometimes you show up and there's "that guy" (or a few). Sometimes "that guy" is a chronic bad sport, sometimes they're just having a bad race, lots of times it's miscommunication.
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Yeah, it’s racing, things will never go perfectly in racing.
For us here in this thread we are all RACERS.
Not everyone in Sport mode is alike. Not every player is a racer. A lot are not-meaning they are far more casual but maybe like online gaming generally but have no concept of racecraft, just “game raft”
But, we gotta know that going in.
Imo it makes it engaging and challenging. There’s a lot of things that can prevent you from winning.
Like for myself, and I’m sure most here agree...Even if you have a lot of first place finishes due to sr system and lack of competition at lower rating matching (story of my alt)...Even if you have that, true VICTORIES are rare and are very satisfying accomplishments.
We only get a few of those in GTS.
I think the game made a great step by using a dr sr system, I’m just suspicious about the next game, given the troubles with this one.
The problem is this system has stagnated in its development.
I hope they throw resources at it for the next title.
I mean in all honesty it’s very telling when in your tour events you switch it off totally...

Edit @sven_jurgens :) good one!!!Never saw that-made me laugh
 
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But's it's fun down there. You can just do what you want cos they don't know any better. How do I get put down there when I TRY and drive cleanly? or I did, now if someone starts I play bumper cars and enjoy it. I used to race stock cars so it just brings back happy memories.
 
Norrin Radd
But's it's fun down there. You can just do what you want cos they don't know any better. How do I get put down there when I TRY and drive cleanly? or I did, now if someone starts I play bumper cars and enjoy it. I used to race stock cars so it just brings back happy memories.
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It can be fun to fight...But soon you realize (if you’re me) that you have many many races of basically racing alone winning by ten or fifteen seconds until you start to get fun equal competition again.

In general racing at the top at Brands was cleaner than I’ve ever seen it, and tbh I shouldn’t have started in with the ramming...
There’s just certain things certain moves that I won’t take.
 
Groundfish
It can be fun to fight...But soon you realize (if you’re me) that you have many many races of basically racing alone winning by ten or fifteen seconds until you start to get fun equal competition again.
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I am basically a 12K driver, I'm not aggressive enough to pass that and not good enough not to use questionable tactics to gain places. So it takes me about 10 games to go from a full reset back to B/S where I belong. If I were better and it was harder to get back I might not go full berserker when idiots start to punt me or I might just quit. The problem is the pen system doesn't encourage good play so even at B/S (in fact to an extent more so) you get loads of dirty players, most of who don't think they are doing anything wrong. I at least know when I'm being an idiot.
 
@Norrin Radd
I agree, it’s fun to deal the pain.

Edit also, you make a fantastic point. At those levels they don’t know they are doing anything wrong.
How could they? The game teaches nothing about basic fundamentals of racecraft.
The penalty system certainly doesn’t provide consistent reinforcement...
I’m pretty sure also that to beat stuff in campaign it lets you wreck cars to get ahead.

You pointed out a major failing of GTS.
Total failure to explain at any level any of racing’s unwritten rules..,
 
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sturk0167
I got knocked down from 85 to 76 because of this.
Btw, 9 points is equivalent to 3 clean races at Monza. Oh yeah, that makes sense. :rolleyes:

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I've got the Monza Blues. Knew that Monza is a DR/SR killer so I dragged out the alt account. Start at an A/S ranking, was soon proudly wearing a C/C ranking! Unbelievable carnage in the first chicane. Second chicane wasn't much better. While we all b**** about the pen system and the horrible errors it makes, no system is going to work if you have drivers who just don't care!
 
Scuba1958
I've got the Monza Blues. Knew that Monza is a DR/SR killer so I dragged out the alt account. Start at an A/S ranking, was soon proudly wearing a C/C ranking! Unbelievable carnage in the first chicane. Second chicane wasn't much better. While we all b**** about the pen system and the horrible errors it makes, no system is going to work if you have drivers who just don't care!
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Although a good system would make you care more. It wouldn't stop everyone but it would stop most and once you got to the top you wouldn't want to drop so S would be clean, rather than now where S is dirty and has too many people who have worked out how to game this broken system.
You need to penalise everyone involved in any collision, not it's not fair but no system can get the right guy every time except one that gets everyone, and it needs to take more than 6 games to go from bottom to top.
 
Norrin Radd
You need to penalise everyone involved in any collision, not it's not fair but no system can get the right guy every time except one that gets everyone, and it needs to take more than 6 games to go from bottom to top.
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Yes, and the safety score for each player needs to be much more long term based.
Right now you get a little too aggressive, a little bad luck next thing you know you’ve gone from S99 to B 50 or some such.
This is another reason for shared fault...Yes it’s unfair in a way in that someone could hit you and give you pen anytime, BUT if the scoring was much more long term less up and down on the rating from a single incident then the playerbase would stay separated according to skill level far better and imo provide more fun.
Right now you could race 300 races clean, then one bad race you are demoted from S to say low A.
That’s asinine and does not represent the player.
Then, worse you take this driver and put them up against far less experienced players to beat them by 20 seconds or more which further demoralizes the lower level folks AND DOES NOT REPRESENT FAIR PNLINE MATCHMAKING which is sort of the point of all this-to match players of like skill...
It’s terrible the way rank fluctuates.

All this said, the top room ARE clean right now. But you gotta get in there at 99 with around a top 150 q on NA or the quality drops quick.
I think shared fault with scoring adjustments would work well.

I think too once you get to A on DR then you add in damage and take ghosting away. Below that, no.
It doesn’t have to be complicated, just slow or stop the car based on impact.
You don’t need graphics even...

Maybe it would be better to play also if the RANK on DR was not so fluid either.
You know maybe keep points totals on FIA, but make dailies some kind of fixed amount like that only changes long term...Also have FIA and DAILIES SEPERATE.
I think then you’d get much much more participation in dailies.

Jmo
 
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Groundfish
Yes, and the safety score for each player needs to be much more long term based.
Right now you get a little too aggressive, a little bad luck next thing you know you’ve gone from S99 to B 50 or some such.
This is another reason for shared fault...Yes it’s unfair in a way in that someone could hit you and give you pen anytime, BUT if the scoring was much more long term less up and down on the rating from a single incident then the playerbase would stay separated according to skill level far better and imo provide more fun.
Right now you could race 300 races clean, then one bad race you are demoted from S to say low A.
That’s asinine and does not represent the player.
Then, worse you take this driver and put them up against far less experienced players to beat them by 20 seconds or more which further demoralizes the lower level folks AND DOES NOT REPRESENT FAIR PNLINE MATCHMAKING which is sort of the point of all this-to match players of like skill...
It’s terrible the way rank fluctuates.

All this said, the top room ARE clean right now. But you gotta get in there at 99 with around a top 150 q on NA or the quality drops quick.
I think shared fault with scoring adjustments would work well.

I think too once you get to A on DR then you add in damage and take ghosting away. Below that, no.
It doesn’t have to be complicated, just slow or stop the car based on impact.
You don’t need graphics even...

Maybe it would be better to play also if the RANK on DR was not so fluid either.
You know maybe keep points totals on FIA, but make dailies some kind of fixed amount like that only changes long term...Also have FIA and DAILIES SEPERATE.
I think then you’d get much much more participation in dailies.

Jmo
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Yeah I don't think you've got it quite right, but that's basically the way I think it should be. Slow up, slow down and based more on an average than a simple up/down after every game. Maybe it ranks you by your last 100 games or something. Well hopefully GT7 will have a better system and in about 5 years I'll check it out.
 
Well I got a reset so did a little test as I climbed back up. I could get back to B/S in 4 games and I'm a low B player so someone good could get fairly high fairly quickly. But as soon as I get to S, SR becomes an issue. I lost 25 points in one game because a guy bins it I hit his returning car for 3 secs, a guy rams me from behind 1 sec and later he bins it and I get another 2. Along with a few other bumps, none my fault and mostly just driving incidents, gets me a bigger loss than I can get back in one game. It truly is pointless, I've been enjoying LS this week and Bathurst looks fun next week, but I'm fed up fixing my rating when it comes to running FIA. Going to fix it this last time then I'm just going to run a scrub alt and play for fun.
 
Norrin Radd
Well I got a reset so did a little test as I climbed back up. I could get back to B/S in 4 games and I'm a low B player so someone good could get fairly high fairly quickly. But as soon as I get to S, SR becomes an issue. I lost 25 points in one game because a guy bins it I hit his returning car for 3 secs, a guy rams me from behind 1 sec and later he bins it and I get another 2. Along with a few other bumps, none my fault and mostly just driving incidents, gets me a bigger loss than I can get back in one game. It truly is pointless, I've been enjoying LS this week and Bathurst looks fun next week, but I'm fed up fixing my rating when it comes to running FIA. Going to fix it this last time then I'm just going to run a scrub alt and play for fun.
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Hilariously (or sadly), my main account has had this indignity ever since the penalty system was put in place. My 3rd account has somehow avoided it. It has the highest DR that I have ever had in the game, ever. I’m paranoid to even roll it out on track. Thankfully my main account has the most decals, car choices, & paint swatches to make liveries that look good sitting on the side of the track from some abusive driver. :lol:
 
Beside each SR rating, it should list total races and % of races finished blue, white or red. It would provide us with more accurate safety rating as well as overall experience.

For example each driver would show something like:

Driver 1: SR S - 70% Blue, 20 White, 10 Red/ 100 races
Driver 2: SR S - 50% B, 10 W, 40 R/ 100 races
 
O604
Beside each SR rating, it should list total races and % of races finished blue, white or red. It would provide us with more accurate safety rating as well as overall experience.

For example each driver would show something like:

Driver 1: SR S - 70% Blue, 20 White, 10 Red/ 100 races
Driver 2: SR S - 50% B, 10 W, 40 R/ 100 races
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Too much real estate used with your method, screen already cluttered and we don't really need more useless information displayed.

I have said it before and will stick to what I said . . . matching needs to be on qualification times NOT any other method. If you are a reset A/B/C driver and I am a true lower B/C/D then your qualification time would be better than mine. You (an obviously better RESET driver with a better qualification time) would never be matched with me under my proposed system. No qualification racers would race with other no qualification racers.

My proposed system does have possible flaws, people could intentionally tank their qualification times to game the system.

Thoughts?
 
I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I can't get get my head around how shared blame would be an improvement over what we currently have. There are countless posts here where people go bat**** over getting a penalty for contact that was not their fault. We all breathe a sigh of relief when we get hit and don't get penalized. Someone please explain to this former teacher how the knuckle-dragging lowlifes who already game the penalty system won't be walking around with a perpetual stiffy if there shared blame. It's bad enough that someone can push me off the track and send me to the back and only get a 2 second penalty. How does tacking a penalty onto me make things better?
 
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Had a good race at Brands (I’ll report on that later) & was vaulted into the lauded B/S room. Better enjoy it while it lasts. One race. It lasted 1 race. Got a small penalty for a pass where the game thinks I sent him to the Shadow Realm. Served it & unghosted while someone was passing through me. Another penalty. Served it & again unghosted & got tapped. The guy behind got the penalty & thanked me by sending me off at turn 1. More penalty for him, then he quit. :irked:

Edit: Next race, early scrap for the lead & 2nd place makes an error. I go inside & he pushes me off into the grass. Amazingly I only lose 4 spots. Various other people fall off track & I get back to the leaders. I bumped the guy who pushed me off & it causes me to spin. Throu the remainder of the race, the 2 guys I had the race with both spun off. Went from 3rd to 7th back to 3rd. Could have won that race. 🤬
 
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Scuba1958
How does tacking a penalty onto me make things better
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It doesn’t, not in that one instance.
But if the rating took into account BEHAVIOR OVER TIME, the ratings COULD NEVER rise and fall so fast.
Therefore clean drivers simply would never get matched with the drooling cretin gamers.
Right now any fool can get into a top split daily by a decent time and a couple clean c races.
Right now I could run 300 clean races in a row, then after one race end up at B SR OR WORSE!
That’s why, if it took a time weighting into account it would seperate people who regularly contact others and those who don’t.

Trying to assign blame WILL ALWAYS get gamed.
Within any game there will ALWAYS be mouthbreathrrs who do it.
With shared fault and time weighting though...How would you cheat?
Plus with shared fault if I hurt you I hurt me too.
So, NOWAY to game it.
 
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Scuba1958
I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I can't get get my head around how shared blame would be an improvement over what we currently have. There are countless posts here where people go bat**** over getting a penalty for contact that was not their fault. We all breathe a sigh of relief when we get hit and don't get penalized. Someone please explain to this former teacher how the knuckle-dragging lowlifes who already game the penalty system won't be walking around with a perpetual stiffy if there shared blame. It's bad enough that someone can push me off the track and send me to the back and only get a 2 second penalty. How does tacking a penalty onto me make things better?
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The thought being that with shared fault the serial rammers, divebombers, door rubbers and otherwise dirty or sloppy racers would get a penalty and SR down for every time they ram/push/crash/spin someone - as opposed to now where they get penalized maybe a quarter of the times they should. Eventually, with constant penalties and downward pressure on their SR they would be pushed out of SR 99 lobbies until they clean up their driving style. Short-term would be frustrating but long-term it would sort things out and high SR.S lobbies would actually be filled with clean drivers.

That's the thought. Apparently, it works in iRacing but I don't play that so I don't know for sure. Personally, with how easy it is to repair SR in this game (if you don't care about losing DR doing it) I'm a bit dubious of it holding up in practice. Not to mention that nothing in the current system does anything about divebombers. To the best of my knowledge, they don't even get a SR down for slamming into someone at the apex. So, that would still be present in high SR lobbies and a segment of people would still think it's a legitimate way to overtake.
 
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Timm Sheehan
Too much real estate used with your method, screen already cluttered and we don't really need more useless information displayed.

I have said it before and will stick to what I said . . . matching needs to be on qualification times NOT any other method. If you are a reset A/B/C driver and I am a true lower B/C/D then your qualification time would be better than mine. You (an obviously better RESET driver with a better qualification time) would never be matched with me under my proposed system. No qualification racers would race with other no qualification racers.

My proposed system does have possible flaws, people could intentionally tank their qualification times to game the system.

Thoughts?
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Not a good idea, if you could use something like the K speed or similar maybe. Too many people would not post or post a bad time and then you have those D drivers who manage to get 1:30 QT and never break 1:35 in a race.

Scuba1958
I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I can't get get my head around how shared blame would be an improvement over what we currently have. There are countless posts here where people go bat**** over getting a penalty for contact that was not their fault. We all breathe a sigh of relief when we get hit and don't get penalized. Someone please explain to this former teacher how the knuckle-dragging lowlifes who already game the penalty system won't be walking around with a perpetual stiffy if there shared blame. It's bad enough that someone can push me off the track and send me to the back and only get a 2 second penalty. How does tacking a penalty onto me make things better?
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As @Groundfish says the systems need to accommodate this. It would suck in individual races, but it would split up people by behaviour quickly. You wouldn't get people in top splits and all those dodgy youtubers with there " I think I was in the right there, but tell me in the comments" would actually have to play fair too. That is a huge problem, people watch these youtubers with their dodgy race craft and think it's OK to act that way. One or 2 of them are really clean, but unfortunately they don't have as many views as some.
See it should be hard to get to S and equally as hard to drop out, but now 1 game with an idiot can drop you 30 points easily and 4 or 5 games gets you from 1 to 99. It really is a joke system.
 
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For me, ultimately it’s culture that will make or break things.

Think about this...

You RARELY see people give spots back after dubious play in dailies...BUT

When they turned OFF all penalties, and the only matching was by time and EVERYONE was 99 you bet your butt people were giving back spots after any shady moves, because they knew they’d get punted off the next turn if they did not..,
 
barak181
Not to mention that nothing in the current system does anything about divebombers. To the best of my knowledge, they don't even get a SR down for slamming into someone at the apex. So, that would still be present in high SR lobbies and a segment of people would still think it's a legitimate way to overtake.
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No every contact should be SR down, no if buts or maybes like now. It could be set to say a 5 or 10 MPH diff before activating, but no distinction on how the contact happens.
 
Norrin Radd
That is a huge problem, people watch these youtubers with their dodgy race craft and think it's OK to act that way
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Norrin Radd
Not a good idea, if you could use something like the K speed or similar maybe. Too many people would not post or post a bad time and then you have those D drivers who manage to get 1:30 QT and never break 1:35 in a race.

K speed is based on ALL the racers in a region, not the idea I was thinking. A race should be against all the racers in THAT race that are comparative in qualification times. I quit sanctioned online racing because I am tired of racing against aliens who typically qualify 3-10 seconds better than me. What sort of racing is that?

Groundfish
When they turned OFF all penalties, and the only matching was by time and EVERYONE was 99 you bet your butt people were giving back spots after any shady moves, because they knew they’d get punted off the next turn if they did not..,
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So when PD turned off penalties, matching was done by (assumed qualification) time? Am I to understand also that racers were actually racing without gaming the system too much because they realized that retribution was a fickle witch?
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Results varied. You had the diehard troublemakers / trolls that simply thrive on causing chaos. One such individual became so notorious that every race turned into an all against one, get him off the track, affair. But you can't get rid of people anymore without a SR system and he simply dragged the whole room down to the game he wanted to play. It did work wonderfully at Laguna Seca. There were plenty revenge punts yet also more and more people giving places back after a dodgy move.

Matching was on DR since SR was stuck at 99 for everyone. Without the resets and a full DR pool to choose from (no SR tiers) races became better over time. DR actually turned into a useful tool to match people with similar pace together. You could still 'game' the system by not qualifying yet without the resets, you end up close to where you belong regardless. (Unless you quit races to drag your DR down)

It was far from perfect and fast idiots could still create chaos, but it was better than it currently is.
 
Had a lovely moment on the Corkscrew yesterday where a car behind me ran into the corner too quick, I was over a car length ahead so took the racing line, he collected my bumper lightly but a moron in a TT behind him came in way too hot and took him out. I got a 2 sec penalty because the guy essentially got sandwiched between myself and the perpetrator at the back - unfairly punished, if you ask me!
 
Nearly felt sorry for the guy behind me at Bathurst, I was slow and he was bumping me, got 3 secs and I took the place as I would have lost another to give it back. No odds though as he got a min at the end. Can't believe that every time there are tyre regs you always get a few, 4 that race, that get caught out.
 

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