PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

Until we start getting comprehensive stewards AI programs in racing sims that actually act somewhat like real life stewards & give out real world penalties, things will not improve. Penalty systems in games have never worked like penalties in real life, & never will. They have always been flawed & always will be. They never worked in GT5 Prologue for online racing, so I was completely baffled as to why people thought they would work in GT Sport. What's even more mind boggling is that, at the time of posting, 63 people in the poll think the penalty system in GTS is "Amazing"!!!
 
What's even more mind boggling is that
That is absolutely unbelievable!!!! I dont understand how their experience could be so different. I think the next question is what are the DR/SR numbers of racers who think its "amazing" and how often do they race? To me it seems like it takes no more than 2 races max to be unfairly penalized or to see someone who should be penalized escape with scot free.
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I'm a little late to the party but given I have had quite a few penalties hit me from Interlagos and most likely again today on
Circuit De La Sarthe I thought it time to vent a few frustrations.

I don't mind the penalty system, I think it was a good idea but as like most things it is not applied fairly or consistently and I feel I should
know this since I've been doing a lot of online practice of late.

My examples are from yesterday on Interlagos and some experience from La Sarthe last week.

Penalty must be consistent every time, no variations or possibilities of flaws. My example here is turn 3 of Interlagso at the end of the
straight.

Penalty is imposed for running off the track into the run off area so I had two wheels off the track, one lap I am given a 3 seconds penalty
and then a few laps later I am suddenly given 8 seconds and a SR hit because I go over 10 seconds.

Turn 1/2 chicane is another example one lap I cut the first part of the corner in qualifying yet it thought I cut both sections and gave me
16 seconds (thus indicating both corners cut).

La Sarthe is another example. When you are in the final section approaching the chicanes and the pit lane there is what I call a sweeping
left hander followed by a short right hander and I sometimes seem to incur a penalty for speeding through this section even though I am
in track limits.

I do believe that whoever did the penalty track limits for Le Sarthe clearly never looked at the track limit "cones" as some penalties seem
to be applied even though the cone for indicating the track limit is not at the same point.

Hopefully there will be changes for LeSarthe at some stage but I suspect not.
 
fastone371
Really?? I would figure that being at the sharp end you would get the lions share of penalties for any contact regardless of fault. But you probably dont race much in traffic, it might be a different story if lapped cars weren't ghosted though.
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Yeah. I like the strict penalty system, because it mostly works for me. But as you pointed out before, I really don't have much of a midfield experience, and the ones I was midfield was the FiA races so the penalties were handed equally, so that's something I still haven't considered
 
Alpha Cipher
Yeah. I like the strict penalty system, because it mostly works for me. But as you pointed out before, I really don't have much of a midfield experience, and the ones I was midfield was the FiA races so the penalties were handed equally, so that's something I still haven't considered
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All it takes is one mixed SR field race at Monza with a someone drop kicking you to the oval in T1 to find out how great the penalty system works. You would probably be starting with at least 4 seconds of penalty for the privalidge of hitting your braking point and taking (attempting until you are booted anyhoo) a perfect line thru T1, that's only if you can keep it out of the kitty litter. Then you probably rejoin 6th-10th and the real fun begins, 5 seconds at Lemos because you are dive bombed, another 7 seconds at last chicane cause the car you were passing bumped you off track and you get a short cut penalty, then it's like Groundhog Day at L2 T1 !!!!!:lol::lol::lol::lol:
 
VBR
Until we start getting comprehensive stewards AI programs in racing sims that actually act somewhat like real life stewards & give out real world penalties, things will not improve. Penalty systems in games have never worked like penalties in real life, & never will. They have always been flawed & always will be. They never worked in GT5 Prologue for online racing, so I was completely baffled as to why people thought they would work in GT Sport. What's even more mind boggling is that, at the time of posting, 63 people in the poll think the penalty system in GTS is "Amazing"!!!
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Your last point seriously also blew my mind out of town when I saw that.... I couldn't believe it and I still don't really believe that!!! Honestly.. - Cheers. (Agree) . :cheers:

fastone371
Really?? I would figure that being at the sharp end you would get the lions share of penalties for any contact regardless of fault. But you probably dont race much in traffic, it might be a different story if lapped cars weren't ghosted though.
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:gtpflag: . :lol::lol::lol: . :cheers:

Alpha Cipher
I voted amazing...
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It's in my opinion not fair to even vote when you day in and day out are one of the best out there on the various tracks. You know this penalty system hurts the average the most.
 
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DaigoD
Voted amazing as well. I don't think that it is amazing(not by a long shot), but it is closer to amazing than to total horse poop. Polls without a middle ground are pointless.
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"closer to amazing than to total horse poop" . Average opinion does NOT agree with you! Have you read the comments about it?
 
VBR
Until we start getting comprehensive stewards AI programs in racing sims that actually act somewhat like real life stewards & give out real world penalties, things will not improve. Penalty systems in games have never worked like penalties in real life, & never will. They have always been flawed & always will be. They never worked in GT5 Prologue for online racing, so I was completely baffled as to why people thought they would work in GT Sport. What's even more mind boggling is that, at the time of posting, 63 people in the poll think the penalty system in GTS is "Amazing"!!!
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Now that there are 64 people in the poll think the penalty system in GTS is Amazing, well them 64 did not fully understand the question, how can they say that it is Amazing penalty system in GTS.
Now lets have an example, if you are in a Red car and you get hit from behind by the Blue car, and the red car gets a penalty for doing the right thing and why Vote for the penalty system in GTS is Amazing, because once again they did not understand the question properly.
 
fordlaser
Now that there are 64 people in the poll think the penalty system in GTS is Amazing, well them 64 did not fully understand the question, how can they say that it is Amazing penalty system in GTS.
Now lets have an example, if you are in a Red car and you get hit from behind by the Blue car, and the red car gets a penalty for doing the right thing and why Vote for the penalty system in GTS is Amazing, because once again they did not understand the question properly.
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I think I understand the question perfectly
GA 52
It's in my opinion not fair to even vote when you day in and day out are one of the best out there on the various tracks. You know this penalty system hurts the average the most.
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I'm still a person. I still have my opinions and biases. Thank you for the compliment but is my skill level so much of a factor that I cannot voice out my opinion?
GA 52
"closer to amazing than to total horse poop" . Average opinion does NOT agree with you! Have you read the comments about it?
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I don't need to follow the average opinion. I'm an individual, not a hive-mind. If I'm a deviant then so be it, but please don't force others into believing into the "average" opinion unless you have enough facts and statements to make me (or others) switch to your side from our own will
Crazy Taylor
I voted amazing. Definitely more left of the scale than right. Highly doubt PD sit with fingers up ahem. They will be working towards improving this when the official FIA season starts.
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Like others have said here, a poll with no middle ground is kind of going to start arguments like this because you're forced into a yes-or-no situation. I don't think it's a perfect penalty system for sure, and I stated it myself before that I do get quite frustrated with it every now and then, so of course it's not going to be amazing. But like you, if I were forced into these two choices, I'll vote amazing because it still works for me most of the time
 
Alpha Cipher
Yes I'd like you to know why your reasoning will stand. It's Assetto Corsa, but you can draw parallelisms with Minorinating's points system and SR. Penalty-implementation wise you can pretty much take everything he said and put it to GTS.

You can find why this is wrong in the article I reposted above
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OK this will be lengthy and I have chosen few relevent points. So here we go with direct quotes fronm the article and my countering arguments.

"What if...
After years of coding things that directly have logical and physical implications, my brain instantly goes in the "what if"-mode whenever I hear a suggestion. The problem is that the suggestion is born in ONE specific accident, and the user usually tries to abstract this to a type of situation - but is plainly wrong or at least incomplete: "He hit me in the back during braking towards T1 and this was wrong, so MR always should accuse the one who hits another guy in the back."
• "What if" the guy in front of you surprisingly slams the brakes on a straight?"

It is his fault and should incur a penalty. GTS knows where the baking zones are as I have already stated.

"What if" the guy you are about to pass suddenly blocks you?"

Yes, this is a hard one that would need some work over time to get it right. IMHO it would come down to overlap. Insfficient rear car at fault, sufficient car in front fault and lastly, too close to call, racing incident and the wreckage should be the penalty for both.

""What if" the Wrecker is sitting in a blind corner and you hit him in the rear?"

The game already Ghosts these cars so a moot point. Next?

"What if" the guy behind you spins his car in a chicane, ending up hitting you with his rear?

The game is smart enough to know which way the car is pointing. Any penalty should be that cars fault BUT I would suggest treat it the same as any accident and instantly ghost that car and his penalty will be the ensuing wreck.

"What is a brake zone?" I have already covered this. GTS has put 2 cone markers where the brake zones are in driving aids so the game already knows where these zones are. I would suggest they be extend 5-10% to allow for different driving styles.

"You'd need knowledge about both track and car" see above Re: track and since in GTS online we only race the same class or identical cars it is not a valid point to raise.

"A Yellowbird could easily have 3 or 4x the brake distance compared to a GT3.... etc etc" Already answered above so it is a moot point.

Now someone raised tyre wear and fuel load changing braking distances. Also a moot point, if the game sets max braking point for that class of car. Regardless, the following car *SHOULD NOT* run into the car in front as in real racing. Simple as that. People just learn to drive and if you can't work out all this stuff then don't do events where it is in effect.

Well Alpha Cipher how am I doing so far? Perhaps if you have some more specific question you would like to ask I will be happy to go through them with you.
 
TT92
Yes, this is a hard one that would need some work over time to get it right. IMHO it would come down to overlap. Insfficient rear car at fault, sufficient car in front fault and lastly, too close to call, racing incident and the wreckage should be the penalty for both.
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The problem is if the person ahead doesn't allow you to have any overlap in the first place. If the person would keep blocking you and you hits their rear bumper, how could you develop an overlap in the first place?
TT92
The game is smart enough to know which way the car is pointing. Any penalty should be that cars fault BUT I would suggest treat it the same as any accident and instantly ghost that car and his penalty will be the ensuing wreck.
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How do you know that the game is smart enough that it knows where the cars are pointing? For what it's worth, there's countless posts about people getting hit by people who spin out and still get a penalty.
TT92
I have already covered this. GTS has put 2 cone markers where the brake zones are in driving aids so the game already knows where these zones are. I would suggest they be extend 5-10% to allow for different driving styles.
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How about in specific situations when the offending car makes a pass up on the inside, but is carrying so much speed that they need to brake extra harder (past the 10% limit you imposed) to keep themselves on the inside line? The defending car would then probably hit the rear bumper of the offender, but the offender would be penalized for doing a textbook defensive maneuver? And 5-10% isn't enough at all to cover all kinds of different driving styles. Between the lower splits that rely on cones and the higher splits that don't, differences in braking zones can be as much as half a meter board, if not whole. There's also people who can't take some turns without braking, while others can do it flat out. What would happen in those situations?
TT92
Now someone raised tyre wear and fuel load changing braking distances.
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Wouldn't that complicate braking zones even further

Your version of the penalty system would work mostly on a straight line, but it pretty much falls apart when you take corners into account. Straight-line braking, trail-braking, overshooting and correcting yourself, those are all possibilities that your penalty system can't hope to cover, TT92.
 
PD is never going to get the penalties right for a 2 car contact, no matter where it is on the track and who his at fault.
The only way to fix this is to bring in GHOSTING when 2 cars come in contact out on the track.
 
another great race ruined by that system , i was trailing a guy through the whole race B , in the chicace i noticed him braking harder than usual i'm trying my best to avoid him but i gently rear bump him at the exit , nobody harmed but that game still gives me a whopping 10sec aaand race ruined

i hate being a A driver sometimes its just not fair being treated harder than lower ranked people
 
not just contact penalties system but also cutting corners penalties are terrible especially le mans, monza, interlagos etc. it seems like a punishment game where PD combined with idiots decide everything
 
DaigoD
Voted amazing as well. I don't think that it is amazing(not by a long shot), but it is closer to amazing than to total horse poop. Polls without a middle ground are pointless.
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I agree. It does smack of an either or fallacy doesn't it. A few more options would've been more helpful.
 
PrinceMG
In iRacing, which is what Sony copied the penalty system from.

I hope more racing games copies it, because it really makes the online experience much better than other kinds of open lobbies.
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I'm a long time iRacer, GTS' penalty system is not like iRacing (other than corner/track cutting), iRacing gives incident points which doesn't affect your current race until you hit the cap (which is 17x in regular races). In GTS every time you have an incident, it forces you to slow down to get rid of the penalty otherwise it affects your race position if you don't slow down can affect your position as well anyways.

Pre patch 1.10 the system was decent, but now the victim is often the most penalized. It's not even hilarious anymore.
 
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Tried LE MANS today! What an UPGADE in the penalty system using the curbs! WOW. Now it is to my liking - much closer to what we had before. Don't know about contact with other cars though as I hadn't had the experience yet. Have a good day all.
:cheers:
 
sihpmo
not just contact penalties system but also cutting corners penalties are terrible especially le mans, monza, interlagos etc. it seems like a punishment game where PD combined with idiots decide everything
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I'm all for strict track limits yet also there the game needs to look at context. When you get cut off by another car or forced off you can end up with a bigger short cut penalty than simply letting them hit you which can even result in no penalty at all as the other car gets punished instead. Half my penalties are from avoiding contact and that's just not right. I'm not talking about overtaking on the inside, slowing down extra and briefly stepping out the track to avoid the other car not leaving room, time lost plus a shortcut penalty.

Contact penalties are very tricky and the game needs to look at what happened before where each car came from. Just the position of the cars at contact is not enough. You could be side by side or ahead at corner entry and because the trailing car doesn't brake on time it will appear he was ahead at contact. That's the classic dive bomb which GTS gets wrong at least 90% of the time. It doesn't matter if you're inside or outside, the outside braking too late and diving to the inside as if you're not there will get you a penalty as well even though you are committed to leaving space for the other car. Same again on corner exit, you are side by side at the apex yet the inside car carries too much speed, should leave room at the exit but doesn't and cuts you off, you get a penalty since the inside car is now slightly ahead.

The rules for corner rights and when to leave how much room aren't that difficult, the game needs to look at position on the track leading up to an incident. Simply looking at who hit where can never fix it.

Ofcourse, step 1, add racing school. Teach people the etiquette of racing clean, why is it still not there! As for assists it would be very helpful to have indicators that light up when you have corner rights and when not, and a warning indicator when you have to leave room. Teach people to drive instead of slapping there wrist without any explanation. "Back off" and "Leave room" flashing indicators plus challenges that teach you about braking under drafting. The problem is that would require better AI as in its current state it can't teach racing at all.
 
Sven Jurgens
The problem is that would require better AI as in its current state it can't teach racing at all.
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This is my thought exactly. I've been spending a lot of time with the career mode the last week or two and it has occurred to me that a whole lot of the folks in sport mode races drive like they learned everything from the AI behavior. I mean seriously, if the offline game teaches them that absolutely anything goes, why would they think to drive completely differently when they get online?
 
Draggon
This is my thought exactly. I've been spending a lot of time with the career mode the last week or two and it has occurred to me that a whole lot of the folks in sport mode races drive like they learned everything from the AI behavior. I mean seriously, if the offline game teaches them that absolutely anything goes, why would they think to drive completely differently when they get online?
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AGREEEEEEEE 150%! :cheers:

Didn't race for a few days - today, one of the racetracks I feel I can race okay without getting sent off the planet with 1000's of minus points (SR & DR) again and again... - I hope something will happen to make it all better.
0 Not normal....jpg
 
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