Performance point limitations are ridiculous

[SuperCobraJet]

Tires need to make sense first. They don't in GT.

They make enough sense to know if you upgrade the tire, it upgrades the performance of the car.
The question PD couldn't answer adequately is how much for each car to keep the performance equitable.

And these significant differences are pretty hard to find. Most of the time, throw a bunch of random people into a random room, and the racing is good.

The only really careless thing about the PP system is that it doesn't seem to take fan generated downforce into account, but then again even wing downforce is kind of wonky since it's modeled so poorly.

I can only think of one case where this has happened, when I selected a 70's Supra for a 4xx PP race. I was having a hard time keeping it competitive and I eventually went to another car, and then another, and another. All but the first one worked fine.

It wouldn't surprise me if further tuning could make the Supra faster either. I've raced a lot from 400-700 PP and unbeatable cars aren't really things I've come across.

Maybe your experience hasn't been that bad.
But inequities do exsist.
Some more prominent than others.
I think the OP's point is; how do you know when to trust the PP system in light of the inequities.
Save trial and error, you don't know.

No. I want an actual answer to that question. Why does the PP system not taking tires into account matter at all now that tires can be filtered separately?

I think with that statement your assuming the tire performance change is the same for all tire grades on all cars. That is highly unlikely, if not impossible.
The only way to show the individual performance change is to have it in the PP system.

No one ever said that it couldn't be improved. Nor did anyone ever try to defend it by saying it could be worse. I'd like to know where you are getting these arguments, because all that I've ever said was that it could be better but the alternative systems the thread OP was saying were better are worse.

Sorry, I misquoted you on this one.

The uninitiated likely wouldn't be winning races in the first place. Experience means more than just being a better driver. It also translates to learning and understanding the idiosyncrasies of the cars you've chosen to race with..

The less experienced the player the more dependant they will be on the PP system,
and the more accurate it needs to be to instill confidence in the PP system as a guide.
I think this is the problem concerning the OP.
Once inequities are encountered, there is a justified lack of confidence.

There is a line where the tools cannot be blamed for the end result. I recognize that there are problems with it, but a bit of common sense should come into play as well when it comes to extreme examples.

The more experienced the player the less important the PP systems inequities
become, since you are more familiar with its inaccuracies and can adapt to them.
Without the PP system you would still learn the cars, tracks, and understand the idiosyncrasies of both.
Hopefully.

 

[gtnoobie]

For those arguing against pp, does it work only if cars of same pp drives the same and gives same laptimes over every course in the game with the same driver?
If so, they must be exactly the same car. No need for pp. just one car per pp and no need to modify cos if modified, it'll be exactly like another car with the same pp.
Sounds silly??

 

[SavageEvil]

You're complaining about a system that cannot be perfect. The reason for some weirdness with cars of equal PP having vastly different performance depending on course is kind of like a what you have in Forza, you know the characteristics which show you what the cars attributes are so you obviously don't select a car that is severely lacking in a vital area. If PD added this OP would not be having such a big problem finding a car, but it would lead to less experimentation.

GT5 isn't handing you everything, I mean you do have HP/torque and weight numbers to give you a rough idea of what the car should be able to do on a course.

Two 600 plus PP cars one with 1000+hp but weighs 2+ tons and the other 600hp and weighing just over 1 ton. Both are at the same performance points but looking at the numbers, you have an idea which of these would better suit racing and which is for going straight. PP is a rough guide that works very well if you have an idea about physics and general knowledge about racing. Sure PP needs some more work because it's lacking but it's not like I want to go back to the previous PTW mess, which was total nonsense if you ask me.

Just take your time and work with it, you'll understand how to use it to choose the best car for you. Hey OP, not all cars handle well when you load them up with HP and drop their weight, some actually get worse, find the sweet spot for that car.

People want cars with identical PP to be evenly matched, simple ONE MAKE RACE with no tuning allowed, that will definitely keep the whole room level, well of course until you account for driver skill and just tosses that whole suggestion out the window. I notice that these tire restrictions make for fun time trials and races, you have to think about your lines a lot more and braking points are of high importance also threshold braking becomes a greater factor. Skills above all else help out a hell of a lot and a dash of patience.

I beat that Time Trial on both my game saves using two cars I never drive one is the MG TF160 '03 @ 262hp and 1115kg and the Lotus Elise 111R '03 181hp @ 806kg. Both cars are a fun drive, in fact this made me start driving the Lotus around on CS in arcade mode versus Professional AI running 216hp @ 806kgs, this thing rules in the rain. Has little straight line speed but it can go into corners at a much higher speed than the rest of the field. I'll use your 300ZX '89 and see what I can do in it.

 

[Smuttysy]

I don't think the PP system is necessarily a bad thing, just that it has been poorly implemented. Sure, it could take into account the tyres fitted to said cars, but I feel it should be more about levelling the performance in terms of acceleration and speed. Then, as with many racing series', it will all come down to different handling characteristics and driving skill to provide the winner.
I get really annoyed when I see the same handful of cars at the top couple of pages of the leaderboards on the seasonals, only to find that without using one of these very cars it's almost impossible to produce a respectably competitive time or score.

An aside, did anyone else notice that PD even broke their own rules regarding the PP in the 470pp Trucks event? They're running the Tacoma at 472pp, according to the "typical opponents" list! Level playing field? I think not!

 

[Giygas]

I personaly think the PP system is really good at bringing lots of different cars together for an exciting race, but the only way it really fails as far as i see is when it comes to special cars like the Caterham and Tank car where the extreme weight differences often pit them against cars that obviously outclass them in most ways.

 

[TomBrady]

Most of the go-karts have more PP than something in the STI or Evo range, IIRC. And I'm fairly certain they aren't any quicker.

Yeah, the PP system needs to be either fixed or abolished.

Depends on the track. The karts will actually annihilate those cars on a bunch of tracks.

However, the Caterham 7 on any track is nearly impossible to win with for the amount of PP it has. I don't know if there's some trick to getting the most out of it but I think the PP is way too high. Just like the Chaparral 2Js PP used to be way too low.

It's not perfect but really the main issue is that PP is no longer affected by tire selection and that's absolutely stupid especially for online racing.

Not everybody wants to use the same tires all the time. if tires aren't restricted, us realists will leave the room, while when the more casual racers join a room with tire restrictions whine about even using racing hard. It's why a lot of people race in leagues only nowadays. The public lobbies are a mess.

 

[Exorcet]

They make enough sense to know if you upgrade the tire, it upgrades the performance of the car.
The question PD couldn't answer adequately is how much for each car to keep the performance equitable.

The gap in performance created by tires is so huge, even if you just change one grade in some cases, that balancing isn't possible without taking the track into account. You can't really have a PP rating that will work for SSR7 and Autumn Ring Mini when one car has 1000 hp and CS tires and the other has 600 hp and RS tires.

And then if you look at it from a realism perspective, you don't decide on RH vs RS by durability. You decide by matching a tire to track/race conditions. Which means that selecting sub grades of tires shouldn't change PP in the first place.

Maybe your experience hasn't been that bad.
But inequities do exsist.
Some more prominent than others.
I think the OP's point is; how do you know when to trust the PP system in light of the inequities.
Save trial and error, you don't know.

Trial and error doesn't sound bad when errors don't come up too often. It's not just my experience that hasn't been bad, but a lot of other people's. Nearly every room I've hosted has been PP restricted, the same goes for most I've entered. The driver is usually a bigger factor than the car in PP rooms. Rooms don't devolve to everyone using the same car, or the same car always winning. If PP was so terrible, this should happen 75% of the time, or more.

I think with that statement your assuming the tire performance change is the same for all tire grades on all cars. That is highly unlikely, if not impossible.

Except in GT5 where that's exactly how tires are handled.

The less experienced the player the more dependant they will be on the PP system,
and the more accurate it needs to be to instill confidence in the PP system as a guide.
I think this is the problem concerning the OP.
Once inequities are encountered, there is a justified lack of confidence.
[/QUOTE]
I started off with zero experience with the PP system and it worked fine. In GT5P, the GT-R was super overpowered, and that was it. I didn't notice the flaws in the PP system for a long time, and I don't think you'll notice them until you've got a lot of experience with the system, which means you'll know how to get around them too.

Downforce and race cars seems to get a little bit less PP than they should, but for a road car only or race car only race, PP works fine.

At the very least, it's better than power/weight or nothing right?

You're not the only one who wants it improved, but removing it makes no sense. Removing it will bring us back to early GT5 online, and that was a disaster. Good luck having a close race without running a GTP league or sending long PM's to everyone in the room.

 

[Snakebitten]

I hate the PP system as well. You cant trust it when looking at "typical competition" menu. For example the NSX. Its way faster than the cars listed with a higher PP than it. If you look at how the game is programmed it seems like it doesn't even follow its own restrictions.

Anyone else ever notice how certain cars are programed to not draft, brake much earlier than other cars, corner 5-10 miles slower than other comparable cars etc? Ive seen this behavior in many championships. One I remember vividly when I used to play used to happen in Expert Level Japanese Championship. The Nissans/ Mitsu's etc but especially the Z's would repeatedly not draft behind cars on straightaways until the very end of the straightaways when it was pointless then come back behind the car. Lap after lap you used to see this behavior. They would also brake way earlier than other cars and corner sometimes 5-8mph slower than cars in its class. This happens to some other cars too but I noticed it plagued the Z's the most. If they just let these cars numbers dictate how they race instead of handicapping some we would get a better race from the computer AI.

Also you will notice too that some cars like Honda's especially, Ruf's, Muira's ramp up in temperament much faster than other cars and also there temperament drops waaaay slower than the other cars. Ive seen the Honda's, Muiras etc keep the temperament bar from dropping all they way to blue for 3 laps with no other car around. I don't need to tell you the advantage that gives any car. Another car that does this is the Audi R8 LM. This is why certain AI driven cars just seem to be unbeatable by other AI driven cars in its class.

I shouldnt be seeing a Lambo Muira out dragging and out cornering Mclaren F1's, Bugatti Veyrons, ACR's, Paganis etc....I shouldn't be seeing a Honda S2000 out gunning FGT's, GTR's, Lotus Esprits when it should be having trouble with 350z's and M3's instead. If the PP system as well as other were well sorted out none of this would be happening. The game was unfinished and rushed out so its not a surprise that the basic car racing programming reflects that too.

 

[SavageEvil]

I hate the PP system as well. You cant trust it when looking at "typical competition" menu. For example the NSX. Its way faster than the cars listed with a higher PP than it. If you look at how the game is programmed it seems like it doesn't even follow its own restrictions.

Anyone else ever notice how certain cars are programed to not draft, brake much earlier than other cars, corner 5-10 miles slower than other comparable cars etc? Ive seen this behavior in many championships. One I remember vividly when I used to play used to happen in Expert Level Japanese Championship. The Nissans/ Mitsu's etc but especially the Z's would repeatedly not draft behind cars on straightaways until the very end of the straightaways when it was pointless then come back behind the car. Lap after lap you used to see this behavior. They would also brake way earlier than other cars and corner sometimes 5-8mph slower than cars in its class. This happens to some other cars too but I noticed it plagued the Z's the most. If they just let these cars numbers dictate how they race instead of handicapping some we would get a better race from the computer AI.

Also you will notice too that some cars like Honda's especially, Ruf's, Muira's ramp up in temperament much faster than other cars and also there temperament drops waaaay slower than the other cars. Ive seen the Honda's, Muiras etc keep the temperament bar from dropping all they way to blue for 3 laps with no other car around. I don't need to tell you the advantage that gives any car. Another car that does this is the Audi R8 LM. This is why certain AI driven cars just seem to be unbeatable by other AI driven cars in its class.

I shouldnt be seeing a Lambo Muira out dragging and out cornering Mclaren F1's, Bugatti Veyrons, ACR's, Paganis etc....I shouldn't be seeing a Honda S2000 out gunning FGT's, GTR's, Lotus Esprits when it should be having trouble with 350z's and M3's instead. If the PP system as well as other were well sorted out none of this would be happening. The game was unfinished and rushed out so its not a surprise that the basic car racing programming reflects that too.

The NSX is a super car and in the game it isn't penalized for having a bit of an edge in top end but it's not so over the top. The RX7 enjoys the same advantages, being lightweight and high top end as does the M3.

The AI driving other cars different is attributed to the game selecting randomly AI personalities at varying levels, which is why at times you would see a seemingly weaker car out running a car that should beat it were the drivers at the same skill level. PD seems to randomly give one of the top 3 cars in Arcade mode a maxed AI with awesome skills, I realized this because at times you would see a car move up from 3rd or 4th to 1 place depending on track. Just wished that there was a way to select the maxed out AI for all cars. The AI has been tweaked considerably, but the seasonals AI is programmed to not give you too hard a time, then PD added tire limitations to add some sort of challenge which is great. I spend so much time driving on SH and CS, it just feels so great.

 

[Spagetti69]

No. I want an actual answer to that question. Why does the PP system not taking tires into account matter at all now that tires can be filtered separately?

Sorry to jump in here, are you saying the host can set individual tire limits for all 16 players at different ranges.

I haven't played online for ages so I don't know.

If I'm reading you right, how would the host know which tires to apply to each car? And if he did, wouldn't he just be making up for the fact that tired are not calculated in PP?

 

[sinbad]

For me, if they sorted the old car vs. new car typical disparity, pp would be at least of some use. There are loads of examples that spring to mind, and not absurd match ups either. Who hasn't considered Lotus Elan S1 vs. Mk1 Mazda Mx5/Miata/Roadster. The Elan is MASSIVELY disadvantaged, even with significantly higher pp.

If there is an obvious, tangible, reason pp then should be accounting for it. If not, then pp is just a meaningless number and isn't worth using unless you're comparing similar types of car with similar stats and ages, in which cases it's quite good, but in those cases a chimp with a calculator could work out the cars would be a close match.

 

[Skygrasper550]

? Tires I guess have nothing to do with performance?
What is the use of a performance points system that does not take this into account?

No offense, but that's just stupid. It's clear that you are not thinking...well...clearly, just by the line ? Tires I guess have nothing to do with performance?. If they had nothing to do with performance, then there shouldn't be the need to have different types and compound of tires. All tires should have the same level of grip, endurance, and usability in any road condition. It's the other way around, Tires have the biggest impact in performance in the game, too big of an impact in that they are also the most consistent in changing performance. That's why they have to be ruled out in the equation.

You can always expect what kind of grip level and performance you'll get just by changing tires. Unlike in turbo kits and suspension, turbo kits have varying horsepower increases depending on the car's engine, and tinkering around with the suspension settings will give you virtually limitless slight variations in performance. You'll never know when swapping turbos or changing the settings will better or worsen your car's performance, while in tires, you can always expect higher grip and, in the case of grip racing or drag racing, better acceleration and performance when switching to softer compounds or higher levels of tires.

My interpretation of the OP is that the PP system is faulty enough that it can't be trusted. If it can't be trusted, then what good is it.
Thats a valid point, since except with experience, you don't know when you will be a couple houses down or a few blocks away with a
"in the nieghborhood " PP system.
Depending on the experience of the player and the upgrades chosen, as the saying goes, "results may vary", to some degree.
Nevertheless, it is patently evident, depending on the track, that there can be a considerable difference, even with similar class cars at the same PP.
Saying the PP system could be worse, is a pretty lame defense.
Even if it can't be perfect, it could be a lot better than it is.

Of course it can be a lot better. It can be trusted, but not all of the time because it's not perfect. But I have managed to have some pretty close races a few days ago, 600PP with supercars. Me and 2 others were racing neck-and-neck, until the player in front of me misjudged a corner and overshot it, allowing me to take the lead and win the race.

Sometimes maybe so.
Sometimes maybe not.
Without previous experience at a given track and class of car, there is no way to know when you will be close and when you won't..
Like I said, personal results may vary.

That's not the game's fault anymore. Players' driving skills indeed vary. Some are just casual players who aren't that good, and some are very skilled in that they know all the racing lines for all of the courses in GT5. The PP system tries its best to balance out things in a way that everything else should come down to the driver's skill and performance.

This is derived from experience, not trusting the PP system.
Even though its not hidden, the uninitiated don't know that any other 600PP car will not be competitive.

That's where experience of the game comes into play.

The only way to fix it, is to base it in the actual performance of the each car, which I doubt will ever happen.
Thats why I'm not a fan of points systems.
They all seem to be inherently flawed.

That's because there are just too many variables to consider.

Looking at them will, but the 600 PP says they should be competitive.

Agreeing with Toronado, yes. Use a bit of common sense. There's just no way a Bugatti Veyron will win against GT500 cars with the same PP in a race around Autumn Ring Mini.

 

[analog]

No offense, but that's just stupid. It's clear that you are not thinking...well...clearly, just by the line ? Tires I guess have nothing to do with performance?

It's sometimes helpful to understand context and irony as I think you may find reading it again he's completely agreeing with you on the fact tyres are important regarding performance...
Think you might find it's not him making a lapse of judgement or what you call 'stupid'.

 

[jflomario]

Use an american car on nordschleife. Then use a german one. Both 565 pp with no tunes other than hp and kg in/decrease. No suspension no lsd/drivetrain, both set to 220 top speed. Both capable cars yes. Easier ? U already know the answer.Or maybe even a jgtc vs a dtm. I'll take the german again please. Track knowledge is key. They tune their cars on schleife so consequently their cars will dominate. Viper acr has 580 pp.its a beast in drag yet it holds nurb-schleife record. Anyone know the answer?

 

[QQmore]

Like everyone said, Performance points are far from perfect but they work reasonably enough to ensure there's some way to quickly compare car performance.

 

[Peasantslayer]

and the event is ruined. Because all cars with the same performance points aren't equal.

Everyone plays to the same regulations in F1 but a HRT isn't as quick as a Mclaren is it? Stop whining because without some very clever mathematics cars will never be equal at the same PP but the PP system does a better job at levelling the field than simple weight and power regulations.

 

[Polsixe]

The PP equation is very closely related to power / weight and as such for the majority of the 1000+ cars it is reasonable. Some cars are extreme outliers such as the 2J. It does help you learn that a lightweight 500pp car may be better than a heavy car on twisty tracks and vice versa on speedways.

 

[dr_slump]

I recently tested some cars on Cote d'Azur at 590pp.

While the fastest laptime was a 1:27, other cars were only capable of 1:32 times. That's a difference of 5sec or about 4% and this on such a short course. Btw, no aids except ABS 1.

 

[Denilson]

I recently tested some cars on Cote d'Azur at 590pp.

While the fastest laptime was a 1:27, other cars were only capable of 1:32 times. That's a difference of 5sec or about 4% and this on such a short course. Btw, no aids except ABS 1.

Ok.

But if this test is going to be of any interest, I'd like to know what cars you drove?
1:27 at 590 pp smells like Racing Softs to me

And as already stated, 2 cars can have the same PP but still be very different.
I'd suggest a much more speed biased track for such comparisons than Monaco.
LaSarthe with chicanes are pretty much in the middle imo. At least when we talk abot cars in the 600pp range.
The more agile car (race car?) will ofc be faster around Monaco.
I.e, you could tune a SGT car to 649 PP , and compare it to the Veyron at Route X.. Guess which one will win?

 

[Exorcet]

I recently tested some cars on Cote d'Azur at 590pp.

While the fastest laptime was a 1:27, other cars were only capable of 1:32 times. That's a difference of 5sec or about 4% and this on such a short course. Btw, no aids except ABS 1.

How many laps did each car get? Is the lap time order the same at other tracks?

 

[Johnnypenso]

This is all much ado about nothing. Someone above mentioned an example that pretty much sums it up. You have Autumn Ring Mini a very short, tight course. You have LeMans, a bunch of very long straights connected by relatively simple corners. You have Monaco, a long very tight city course....etc. etc. etc. Do you really expect a 1700 lb sport sedan can be equalized in terms of PP with an 800 kg pure sports car at all these tracks?

The PP system works very well if you understand it's limits but there's no way to equalize all cars it just can't be done. The trick I found was to race similar types of cars. If you stick with true modern supercars for example around 600PP it's very competitive. If you race modern Japanese RWD sedans at 500 PP it's very competitive. If you run mid-level sports cars at 500-550pp it's very competitive.

If you run an NSX against a Jensen Interceptor at 500pp, forget it. They couldn't be matched up in real life and can't be matched up in the game at more than one track I would guess. In real life, you wouldn't race an 1800 kg Dodge Challenger against an 800 kg Lotus Elise and expect they'd be competitive in any way would you? Look at most of the race series in the world and you'll find the cars are all very similar to each other within the series. GT5 is no different.

The fact that I can enter a PP based race online and find 10-20 or more cars that are competitive tells me the system works fairly well, as well as can be expected.

 

[Snakebitten]

The NSX is a super car and in the game it isn't penalized for having a bit of an edge in top end but it's not so over the top. The RX7 enjoys the same advantages, being lightweight and high top end as does the M3.

The AI driving other cars different is attributed to the game selecting randomly AI personalities at varying levels, which is why at times you would see a seemingly weaker car out running a car that should beat it were the drivers at the same skill level. PD seems to randomly give one of the top 3 cars in Arcade mode a maxed AI with awesome skills, I realized this because at times you would see a car move up from 3rd or 4th to 1 place depending on track. Just wished that there was a way to select the maxed out AI for all cars. The AI has been tweaked considerably, but the seasonals AI is programmed to not give you too hard a time, then PD added tire limitations to add some sort of challenge which is great. I spend so much time driving on SH and CS, it just feels so great.

Sorry man. I not going to make excuses for PD. If I have to handicap myself with lower class tires, detune my power etc to have a competitive race in the class Im supposed to be in then something is wrong with the racing program.

OK so the NSX is a super car so why is the similar treatment given to cars like the Honda S2000 when it shouldn't be? Its not a super car yet if you play Expert Level Polyphony Cup for example you will see it routinely out dragging and out cornering GTR's, Lotus, RX-7 and quite a few times even the Ford GT. It also benefits from that fast ramp up and slow ramp down of the temperament bar. That effectively makes the cars in its performance class non-competitive since they don't benefit from this programming as well.

That shouldn't be as the S2k is competitive in real life with the likes of 350z's/EVO etc lap time-wise and not even remotely with GTR's etc. In real life an S2k cant out drag a 350/370/evo etc much less a GTR. Its pretty obvious the programming is not remotely balanced by just this one example. This is one of the reasons the PP system sucks to me. It doesnt take into account this "special" programming some cars have. So you cant go by the PP system often. Its just a game but it wants to be the real driving simulator so this gotta get fixed in GT6.

Another thing. Why are the older cars almost always faster than the newer cars??? Whats up with that? Nostalgia? Case in point the infamous Muira, RUF Yellow Bird, 512 BB, LP 400's etc. They all wallop the Veyron, ZR1, ACR, even the Zonda's....Meanwhile the Muircielagos, F430, F40's, basically the much faster newer Ferrari's/Lambos are pulling up the rear. I guess I'm a purist and this kind of inattention to detail or deliberate programming just doesn't sit well with me for the real driving simulator. Its stuff like this that adds or detracts from the polish of a game to me. As they say the devil is in the details.

 

[sinbad]

Nobody is demanding that it matches every car on every track, that is a ridiculous notion, but in the case of Jensen Interceptor vs NSX: yes they probably could be matched around a circuit of average straight punchy length and twistiness, but the point most of us are making is that if they cannot possibly be matched in such a situation, their pp should not match!

As has been said, pp is fine for matching cars of similar types, with similar stats and from the era, but where is it stated that this is its useful limit? Nowhere, of course. To the novice a 400pp ae86 should be as fast as a 400pp S2000, and why not?

I think if they simply reduced pp of cars from the 90s by 30, from the 80s by 50, and from the 70s by 80, or something, we'd be closer, but really it has to judge tyre size, because the old cars really lack grip imo, and that's where they lose a massive chunk of time.

 

[Exorcet]

Sorry man. I not going to make excuses for PD. If I have to handicap myself with lower class tires, detune my power etc to have a competitive race in the class Im supposed to be in then something is wrong with the racing program.

OK so the NSX is a super car so why is the similar treatment given to cars like the Honda S2000 when it shouldn't be? Its not a super car yet if you play Expert Level Polyphony Cup for example you will see it routinely out dragging and out cornering GTR's, Lotus, RX-7 and quite a few times even the Ford GT. It also benefits from that fast ramp up and slow ramp down of the temperament bar. That effectively makes the cars in its performance class non-competitive since they don't benefit from this programming as well.

That shouldn't be as the S2k is competitive in real life with the likes of 350z's/EVO etc lap time-wise and not even remotely with GTR's etc. In real life an S2k cant out drag a 350/370/evo etc much less a GTR. Its pretty obvious the programming is not remotely balanced by just this one example. This is one of the reasons the PP system sucks to me. It doesnt take into account this "special" programming some cars have. So you cant go by the PP system often. Its just a game but it wants to be the real driving simulator so this gotta get fixed in GT6.

This has nothing to do with PP.

 

[dr_slump]

Ok.

But if this test is going to be of any interest, I'd like to know what cars you drove?

The fastest two cars were the Nostripe and Le Mans quattro (lmq slightly faster), whereas the Enzo was the slowest. I tested some other cars like 458, LFA, HSC, R8, GTR, BTR, M3, and..... heck, I can't remember.

1:27 at 590 pp smells like Racing Softs to me

No, I was using Sports Hard tyres of course.

And as already stated, 2 cars can have the same PP but still be very different.
I'd suggest a much more speed biased track for such comparisons than Monaco.

I'd suggest both

LaSarthe with chicanes are pretty much in the middle imo. At least when we talk abot cars in the 600pp range.

In the middle? In the damn middle of a SSRX and Monza maybe, but definitely not if you consider all tracks.

The more agile car (race car?) will ofc be faster around Monaco.
I.e, you could tune a SGT car to 649 PP , and compare it to the Veyron at Route X.. Guess which one will win?

I only tested street cars.

 

[Denilson]

Wow!
Initially, that time sounds awesome!
Concidering that GTP_Aderrrm (one of GTP's most famous aliens) run around Monaco in a SGT500 @ 610 PP on Racing Hards in 1:30.5XX..

I'll try a street car at 590 pp on SH's first before I post a full response to your post. Just to see for myself if 1:27's are possible 👍

 

[Snakebitten]

This has nothing to do with PP.

You are right. I got lost in the sauce.

 

[dr_slump]

Wow!
Initially, that time sounds awesome!
Concidering that GTP_Aderrrm (one of GTP's most famous aliens) run around Monaco in a SGT500 @ 610 PP on Racing Hards in 1:30.5XX..

I'll try a street car at 590 pp on SH's first before I post a full response to your post. Just to see for myself if 1:27's are possible 👍

I'm speechless.........

 

[Denilson]

The fastest two cars were the Nostripe and Le Mans quattro (lmq slightly faster), whereas the Enzo was the slowest. I tested some other cars like 458, LFA, HSC, R8, GTR, BTR, M3, and..... heck, I can't remember.

Ok. Enzo is known to be slow around corners and get the power down, so that makes sense.
The 4WD probably did fairly ok I guess.

No, I was using Sports Hard tyres of course.

Ok.. So did you run all cars as stock as possible (only weight and bhp tuned, no suspension etc), and used the power limiter to get the down to 590pp?

In the middle? In the damn middle of a SSRX and Monza maybe, but definitely not if you consider all tracks.

For cars in the 590pp range, I think that LaSarthe is a good track to compare race cars with road cars.
This was before I knew you only ran street cars though.
But still, Monaco is way to twisty imo. You should go with Suzuka or something similar..

I only tested street cars.

Yep, did'nt know that..

I'm speechless...

Ok, why?
Because I initially (without testing my self) think 1:27's around Monaco in a 590pp street car on sport hards sounds really fast when I know for a fact that it's practically impossible to go below 1:30 in a 610 PP race car on RH tires?
It's possible I've missed something important though..

 

[sinbad]

I thought I would test ae86 sprinter against s2000, and on a tight track to favor the lighter car, the 86.
At 425pp, it's a demolition. You have to halve the power and max the ballast to slow the s2000 to the 86's lap times, down to a ridiculous pp. s2000 made all the time up in the corners.
Light cars just don't have the cornering advantages over heavier ones which they should do, imo.

Trying to fix pp is a waste of time, really. There's no reason why an 86 should be so lethargic in the corners when it weighs so little. It's like the classic mini. It feels all soft and squishy, and not as nimble as it should feel.