PlayStation 4 General DiscussionPS4 

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Luminis
You'd lose a lot of the advantages of iz being a console, though...
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Am I right in saying that because consoles are consoles they are dedicated to games and therefore more optimized(for gaming)than the PC equivalent because PC's have their own background OS?
So in theory if the PS4 has an OS like a PC it would not be able to output games at their best quality and therefore the existence of gaming devices called consoles that are solely for gaming and a few internet based features are used and gaming PC's are more expensive and seperate aswell as consoles being easier to use?
 
stiggygonzalez
Am I right in saying that because consoles are consoles they are dedicated to games and therefore more optimized(for gaming)than the PC equivalent because PC's have their own background OS?
So in theory if the PS4 has an OS like a PC it would not be able to output games at their best quality and therefore the existence of gaming devices called consoles that are solely for gaming and a few internet based features are used and gaming PC's are more expensive and seperate aswell as consoles being easier to use?
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That isn't exactly true. While there is an optimization factor that must be considered, most developers and publishers go for an "ease of difficulty" in choosing what system to develop for. That is why more often than not multiplatform games tend to underperform on the PS3 and PC than they do on the 360. A painfully obvious example is Skyrim. They clearly had the 360 in mind when they developed the game and all of the DLC. Heck, even their patching schedule clearly indicates a pro-360 approach.
 
SimonK
Chances of otherOS are surely slim to none given it's history on PS3.
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Well it was due to security concerns, they would most likely understand now how to solve them for this generation especially considering they are using x86 architecture. It is up to them, awesome if they did include OtherOs feature that is also fully accelerated, then Steam for Linux will probably get a lot of support.
 
SimonK
Why would they even bother risking it, for the 34 people that actually did install linux for legitimate reasons?
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They did go to the effort for PS2 and also for PS3 initially. I am one of those 34 people. It would likely be a huge success if they did it fully accelerated as well. Looking at their desktop PC line up, it probably won't affect them too much as they seem to only do All-in-one PCs.
 
Not to mention the fact that if they decide to remove it again they'll be hacked by Anonymous or whatever for false advertising or something equally pathetic.
 
SimonK
I just can't see them opening any potential security holes to benefit a very small part of the customer base.
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It required some hardware trickery as well as knowing a certain key. Sony unlikely to repeat same mistakes again regarding security. OtherOS was quite secure. Given x86 architecture and if they can make it accelerated, it could turn out to be a benefit for much of their customer base. PS4 has quite decent specs, will make a decent budget 'gaming PC' as well as having other benefits.

Depends on what direction Sony want to go really.

neema_t
Not to mention the fact that if they decide to remove it again they'll be hacked by Anonymous or whatever for false advertising or something equally pathetic.
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They most likely improved security all around. OtherOS is probably safe to include on the newer PS3s if they wanted to. No one has beaten the security on them yet and unlikely to ever do so. It would have been the case for all PS3s if not for some complacency on someone who was responsible on certain security aspects.
 
GDC: Sony giving PS4 development overview on Wednesday

Dual Pixels
Sony will have a conference Wednesday from 11am to Noon PST in regards to developing for PS4. The presentation will discuss the technology from a development standpoint as well as from the design side

Sony mentions that the PS4 will be discussed from a “design” perspective; this shouldn’t be taken out of context. It will likely go in-depth about the console’s underlying architechture rather than its physical appearance.
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Saidur_Ali
It would still be a gaming console...
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That's not the point.

The point is... Well, there are multiple points.

First, performance. A proper OS like Windows 7/8 or OS X is pretty heavy on performance. Windows can easily use somewhere around 1.5 GB or RAM - without anything running. Just the OS being there will require a decent bit of the hardware to be dedicated to it. Consoles do run their own operating systems, sure. But if you compare Sony's XMB or Microsofts Xbox Dashboard to a full blown operating system, you'll notice that the consoles' OS are far more lightweight (and limited) so they don't have to handle the load of an actual operating system. That's the advantage of it being a console going right out of the window, which was what I mentioned earlier.

Second, price. Licensing something like Windows or OS X would be pretty pricey. Linux isn't very mainstream and would, probably, put off more users than it would attract due to not being developed for the mass market in the same way as Windows and Mac OS are. Developing a operating that's comparable of either of these would cost a decent bit of mone in the first place - and you'd still have a huge problem with compatibility (which would be why you'd be going for a proper OS in the first place). And I'd assume that neither Apple, who are selling their own hardware, nor Microsoft who's a direct competitor to Sony would be happy to license their OS to Sony.

Third, not a closed system. That's right, you can do pretty much anything you want with a full-blown operating system like Windows. You wouldn't have to jail-break a PS4 with stuff like that. With ever increasing DRM, how likely is Sony to actually lower the amount of DRM they can enforce on the player by giving them an open operation system to work with? Unlikely, to say the least.

What you might see is Linux support, sure. But who on earth cares about Linux? The PS4 isn't going to do crap in the PC market if it comes with Linux. Just as a little reminder, Windows accounts for more than 91% of the market share of operating systems in the computer market. Mac OS has slightly more than 7%. Linux doesn't even account for 1.5%. Unless the PS4 has either Windows or Mac OS, it won't be a competitor to the PC market. And, as alluded to above, MS will probably to whatever it can to prevent Windows from ever running on a PS4. Apple too, given that the PS4 would cut into their very own market share in that case.

So, what OS would Sony put on it? Linux isn't going to do crap and the only major players are competitors.

Huge thread to the PC market, yeah, sure. What's so darn hard about thinking this through, logically, for once? Sure, you might get Linux, but nobody will really care. And that might be the case if Sony thinks it is worth the expense to open the console up for it - which might or might not happen. They even halted the support on the PS3 specifically after it was implemented, which doesn't indicate a huge desire to support an operating system that's entirely insignificant, anyways.

Can we please stop with the "OMG PS4 gunna stomp PC market so hard" stuff? It's not a PC and it will not do well in the PC market unless it runs one of the established operating system, which doesn't include Linux. So, if you guys could stop your wishful thinking for a bit, that'd be great.
 
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Saidur_Ali
Sony unlikely to repeat same mistakes again regarding security. OtherOS was quite secure.
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You know what they say about complacency. OtherOS can't have been that secure, hackers got through it eventually.

They most likely improved security all around. OtherOS is probably safe to include on the newer PS3s if they wanted to. No one has beaten the security on them yet
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Well yeah, because they don't have otherOS. Like I said, why would Sony add a potential security risk than is probably safe when they could just not include it and safe any possible problems?
 
Luminis
That's not the point.

The point is... Well, there are multiple points.

First, performance. A proper OS like Windows 7/8 or OS X is pretty heavy on performance. Windows can easily use somewhere around 1.5 GB or RAM - without anything running. Just the OS being there will require a decent bit of the hardware to be dedicated to it. Consoles do run their own operating systems, sure. But if you compare Sony's XMB or Microsofts Xbox Dashboard to a full blown operating system, you'll notice that the consoles' OS are far more lightweight (and limited) so they don't have to handle the load of an actual operating system. That's the advantage of it being a console going right out of the window, which was what I mentioned earlier.

Second, price. Licensing something like Windows or OS X would be pretty pricey. Linux isn't very mainstream and would, probably, put off more users than it would attract due to not being developed for the mass market in the same way as Windows and Mac OS are. Developing a operating that's comparable of either of these would cost a decent bit of mone in the first place - and you'd still have a huge problem with compatibility (which would be why you'd be going for a proper OS in the first place). And I'd assume that neither Apple, who are selling their own hardware, nor Microsoft who's a direct competitor to Sony would be happy to license their OS to Sony.

Third, not a closed system. That's right, you can do pretty much anything you want with a full-blown operating system like Windows. You wouldn't have to jail-break a PS4 with stuff like that. With ever increasing DRM, how likely is Sony to actually lower the amount of DRM they can enforce on the player by giving them an open operation system to work with? Unlikely, to say the least.

What you might see is Linux support, sure. But who on earth cares about Linux? The PS4 isn't going to do crap in the PC market if it comes with Linux. Just as a little reminder, Windows accounts for more than 91% of the market share of operating systems in the computer market. Mac OS has slightly more than 7%. Linux doesn't even account for 1.5%. Unless the PS4 has either Windows or Mac OS, it won't be a competitor to the PC market. And, as alluded to above, MS will probably to whatever it can to prevent Windows from ever running on a PS4. Apple too, given that the PS4 would cut into their very own market share in that case.

So, what OS would Sony put on it? Linux isn't going to do crap and the only major players are competitors.

Huge thread to the PC market, yeah, sure. What's so darn hard about thinking this through, logically, for once? Sure, you might get Linux, but nobody will really care. And that might be the case if Sony thinks it is worth the expense to open the console up for it - which might or might not happen. They even halted the support on the PS3 specifically after it was implemented, which doesn't indicate a huge desire to support an operating system that's entirely insignificant, anyways.

Can we please stop with the "OMG PS4 gunna stomp PC market so hard" stuff? It's not a PC and it will not do well in the PC market unless it runs one of the established operating system, which doesn't include Linux. So, if you guys could stop your wishful thinking for a bit, that'd be great.
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I am talking about OtherOS feature being implemented. You still have your GameOS. Any popular Linux distro fully accelerated would be an attractive proposition. As Steam for Linux gathers momentum, it would be another way to play games outside of platform enticing PC only gamers to maybe just buy a PS4 instead of spending extra for a similar kind of gaming PC. People who like getting 'Homebrew' content running on consoles can just use OtherOS. People could also use console as also a dedicated media centre with a custom Linux based OS.

They might never implement the feature or only introduce it if the hardware is profitable but I will be quite happy if they did. Adds more value to console and this time we will have a reasonably fast 'PC'. Could be a threat, given most people probably use PC for web browsing and office. Something like Ubuntu with LibreOffice might be useful for a number of people. Would not surprise me if they didn't include such feature though and simply concentrated on it being a dedicated closed gaming platform.

SimonK
You know what they say about complacency. OtherOS can't have been that secure, hackers got through it eventually.



Well yeah, because they don't have otherOS. Like I said, why would Sony add a potential security risk than is probably safe when they could just not include it and safe any possible problems?
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OtherOS was not the big problem, there was three huge security failures that I think Sony would have learnt from for PS4. They have already addressed them in the last two PS3 slim revisions. Now if Sony put OtherOS on newer consoles, it would be unlikely to see it hacked unless Sony told them key information and even then it would be hard.
 
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What exactly is the benefit for Sony or consumers to put a feature that they already removed once because no one used it? The thing would never be an alternative to a gaming computer and more than any console is.
 
SimonK
You really think Sony will want to even think about allowing the steam for linux platform on their console?
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Well there would be a lot of other stuff running on platform like PS3 had. What ever makes people want to buy PS4 as platform of choice would help them as long as console is profitable. Whether it is for Steam, Homebrew, Office, Media Centre, Web Browsing or other applications on a Linux distro, freedom side to console would be welcomed I think by many.

Toronado
What exactly is the benefit for Sony or consumers to put a feature that they already removed once because no one used it? The thing would never be an alternative to a gaming computer and more than any console is.
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They never removed it because number of people using it may have been low. The advantage PS4 has is x86 applications will work, has a lot more ram and if it is fully accelerated then it would be a good option to use as another PC.
 
Saidur_Ali
Well there would be a lot of other stuff running on platform like PS3 had. What ever makes people want to buy PS4 as platform of choice would help them as long as console is profitable. Whether it is for Steam, Homebrew, Office, Media Centre, Web Browsing or other applications on a Linux distro, freedom side to console would be welcomed I think by many.
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But not by Sony. I can't fathom how you can possibly think Sony would allow another major games platform to appear on PS4.

I don't see how OtherOS is going to benfit a large amount of people. The general public either doesn't know what Linux is or how to use it, it's never going to be a big draw.
 
Saidur_Ali
The advantage PS4 has is x86 applications will work, has a lot more ram and if it is fully accelerated then it would be a good option to use as another PC.
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You can get a much better option to use as another PC at Wal-Mart for $300, and the average person is far more likely to do that than screw around with Linux, accelerated or not.


Also, "it's x86" doesn't mean "anything programmed for x86 would run on it properly."
 
SimonK
But not by Sony. I can't fathom how you can possibly think Sony would allow another major games platform to appear on PS4.

I don't see how OtherOS is going to benfit a large amount of people. The general public either doesn't know what Linux is or how to use it, it's never going to be a big draw.
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Well people were playing other platform games on PS3 with use of OtherOS for years before it was pulled due to a certain hardware security flaw and big mistake in certain part of software security. The thing with OtherOS was to transform the console into a home computer.

People might buy into idea of using it as a second PC and I am sure their would be ways to easy load an OS up or potentially buy a USB 3 HDD with it preinstalled. Depends really if they want to make PS4 a home computer or keep to how PS3 currently is but expanded feature set.

Toronado
You can get a much better option to use as another PC at Wal-Mart for $300, and the average person is far more likely to do that than screw around with Linux, accelerated or not.


Also, "it's x86" doesn't mean "anything programmed for x86 would run on it properly."
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There is a lot of user friendly distros out there like Ubuntu. You are getting quite a powerful 'PC' to utilise if you use PS4. Most people will already have some kind of PC already, it would be good additional PC.

x86 applications for the specific OS would work.
 
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If it's not Windows or OSX the vast majority of home users either don't know or don't care. You ask 100,000 people the features of PS2, I bet less than 100 would know it had the possibility to install Linux. Even with PS3 when it was more heavily promoted most people didn't use it because they either didn't know how to or didn't care to. The only people that cared were the nerds and the hackers.

Anyway my point remains the same, the security risks (which will always exist) far outweigh any benefits. If they thought OtherOS was already secure enough now they would have re-added it to PS3 or even not removed it in the first place. Them doing so clearly just showed they didn't want to worry about any risks. With no OtherOS there is nothing to break in that area of security.
 
SimonK
If it's not Windows or OSX the vast majority of home users either don't know or don't care. You ask 100,000 people the features of PS2, I bet less than 100 would know it had the possibility to install Linux. Even with PS3 when it was more heavily promoted most people didn't use it because they either didn't know how to or didn't care to. The only people that cared were the nerds and the hackers.

Anyway my point remains the same, the security risks (which will always exist) far outweigh any benefits. If they thought OtherOS was already secure enough now they would have re-added it to PS3 or even not removed it in the first place. Them doing so clearly just showed they didn't want to worry about any risks. With no OtherOS there is nothing to break in that area of security.
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PS3 OtherOS usability was not that good due to console limitations, PS4 will represent something bigger. If they preinstalled say a good Linux distro on launch, it would no doubt become a bigger player in the PC market. Windows 8 is probably turning people away from just looking at Windows mainly. People who have 'upgraded' to that will know enough to get an OS running on PS4 if it had such a feature

Your final point, there might be issues with older PS3s security and you would get people complaining only new console has a feature their console used to have. You have to understand what the actual security risks were, they were quite big fundamental errors. Even if PS3 had no OtherOS from start, it would still have been broken into due to another big oversight. They have addressed all three big problems now for PS3. If they can make it as secure as current PS3s, I don't think they will have any problem regarding OtherOS security. Console being profitable might be key thing if PS4 has it or not. This is one of the reasons why it was removed from PS3.
 
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Saidur_Ali
I am talking about OtherOS feature being implemented. You still have your GameOS.
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First off, that wasn't really clear. At least not to me, not from the post I quoted. Second, it doesn't really change much, does it?

Saidur_Ali
Any popular Linux distro fully accelerated would be an attractive proposition.
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To whom? You? Think of the average PC users, already quite inapt at the more complex technical stuff. Now think of your usual console users, a large part of whom is in the console market because consoles are "plug and play". These folks don't care. Simple as that. OtherOS didn't help the PS3 much because nobody cared and the PS4 is going to be the same, period.

That's the one thing you've got to get through your head: The reason OtherOS wasn't popular wasn't the PS3's hardware. It was capable enough to run a Linux distribution. Back in the day, it was easily powerful enough to run a PC-spec operating system, at least if the FLOPS numbers released by Sony are anywhere near accurate. Did the dempgraphic for consoles change a lot since the PS3? Well, yeah, it did! But it became even more casual and went even further away from the market that potentially cares about Linux. The console market has been Wii'd - ecaxtly the opposite of what'd benefit a Linux distribnution.

Saidur_Ali
As Steam for Linux gathers momentum, it would be another way to play games outside of platform enticing PC only gamers to maybe just buy a PS4 instead of spending extra for a similar kind of gaming PC.
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Yeah, right! Because Sony would actually like to promote a system that competes with their very own digital distribution system. Have you forgotten that they've got Playstation Network themselves? Selling a few more consoles in order to open up their console for a competing system? Remember how, usually, most revenue doesn't come from the console sales themselves, but from selling games and digital content? In all honesty, have you thought this through beyond "I want Linux and Steam on my PS4?"

Saidur_Ali
People who like getting 'Homebrew' content running on consoles can just use OtherOS. People could also use console as also a dedicated media centre with a custom Linux based OS.
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First, you don't need OtherOS and Linux to run a dedicated media centre. All you need is proper support for all common video/audio/picture formats and a proper slideshow/player to use them. That and an equaliser. As far as the software goes, that is.

Second, Homebrew content. You're talking about the stuff that opened up a huge way for püeople to get content onto, say, their PSPs back in the day, without palying a single cent to Sony? The stuff that allows you to emulate Playstation games on a PSP instead of buying it from Sony? The stuff that allows you to run Nintendo emulators on a PSP and gives a plethora of games to play, without every buying a single one from Sony? Do you, in all honesty, believe that Sony, in this day and age, wants to their system to become a safe habour for pirates?

If so, I'd have to say that I really have nothing more to say to you.

Saidur_Ali
They might never implement the feature or only introduce it if the hardware is profitable but I will be quite happy if they did. Adds more value to console and this time we will have a reasonably fast 'PC'. Could be a threat, given most people probably use PC for web browsing and office. Something like Ubuntu with LibreOffice might be useful for a number of people. Would not surprise me if they didn't include such feature though
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The PS3 was plentsy fast back in the day. Stuff like an entry-level Pentium 4 was easier to program for and whatnot, but wasn't really faster than the Cell - again, the hardware wasn't the reason why OtherOS failed miserably. And as long as something like iTunes can't be installed without a heap of tutorials to make it work on Linux, you can kiss the idea of a "mainstream PC user" being content with Linux goodbye.

But, let's recap the most important points, shall we?


  • Linux undermines Sony's revenue by allowing people to get free software or by easily pirating it
  • Linux doesn't offer the compatibility nor the mainstream appeal and is all around insignificant for the PC market
  • The same idea fell flat with the PS3
  • No major OS will ever run on the PS4 out of the box as their distributors aren't going to support Sony
  • Even Valve might be unwilling to help, given that their Steambox plans might still be in the pipeline somewhere
  • Increased security risk due to a less controlable and more open architecture
  • I can't emphasize this enough: Linux isn't a factor in the PC market and as long as Sony gets nothing but Linux, it won't ever be able to make the PS4 a competitor to a PC, period. And before you statr rambling on about a secondary PC: Who on earth would by a secondary PC that runs a different OS from your main PC, if you can't easily switch software between the two PCs? (Ignoring getting a Mac for specific programs and stuff, but we're talking about Linux here).
There is no, absolutely zero incentive for Sony to put Linux or any other OS on the PS4, outside of a fistfull of additional hardware sales. Which, however, is offset by the necessary work to actually omplement a feature and a crapload of negative points about it.


I, personally, would love it if all consoles game with a feature to install a given operating system. But, I'd enjoy it for reasons that no console manufacturer would ever want to become a reality. So, yeah, I can see where that wishful thinking comes from, but for the love of god, try to keep that thought to the back of your head for a second and try to see it from Sony's point of view: Is there a business case that'd cause them to properly introduce Linux on the PS4? There simply isn't.


Really, even though I'd like such a feature, I'd be laughing my butt off if Sony did that. I'd point at them and luagh for an hour straight, as it would be the dumbest move ever, especially after they already fell on their faces with the same darn thing on the PS3.

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New, er, news.

Destructoid reported some of the specs they learned at GDC. They're talking about an eight-core processor clocked at 800 MHz. The processing power is supposedly somewhere around two TFLOPS for the processor alone. Calling BS on that last bit, though, that might be the overall system output, if that. Something might have been lost in translation/reporting somewhere, Sony might be throwing single-precision FLOPS calculations around (again), Destructoid might be writing strange stuff or something like that, but an 800 MHz Jaguar isn't outperforming an i7. Certainly not by a a factor of twenty.
 
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Some PS4 info

-Face buttons are digital as developers barely made use of them for PS2 & PS3

-Touchpad display at 1920 x 900 resolution, will click when pushed down.

-The new PlayStation Eye, a depth-sensing device with two cameras, plugs into the PS4 with a proprietary connector, not through USB

-Sony is increasing the PSN friend limit (number is currently unknown)

-Light bar on DS4 illuminates with color for designated player:
Blue-Player 1
Red-Player 2
Green-Player 3
Pink-Player 4
 
Losing the analog face buttons is unfortunate, but not unexpected. Kinda gave up hope on it happening again way back when GTA IV came out and Rockstar didn't bother with implementing it like they did in the older GTA games. Shame that the supported controller count has dropped to 4, though.
 

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