PlayStation 4 General DiscussionPS4

[Terronium-12]

They also added 3D support even though PS3 had HDMI 1.3.

Anyway here is a video to show people what can be done on lower performance GPU than one in PS4, lower memory bandwidth most likely and lower memory capacity. It shows video of something running higher than 4K by 5.5 megapixels and looks to have a decent frame rate. Same game on PS3 ran at 720p at 30FPS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1Ndk86FhOs

While I see the point you're attempting to make, you're not making the best case for yourself by comparing a 5870 Eyefinity 6 to a 7870, which has more stream processors than the 7870 thus allowing it to handle such an resource-intensive load without much struggle at all.

Oh, and the 5870 E6 has neither lower peak memory bandwidth or memory density.

 

[cuco33]

There are graphics cards weaker that can do gaming quite well at 4K, depends how resource intensive the games are. I am not saying things Battlefield 4 will be 4K but games that are more likely less hardware demanding should be able to. One person from Sony has said no to that thought, two people from Sony have said more or less, it is something in future regarding platform.

What GPUs? Even if capable at running at higher resolutions the frame rates, AA, shadow and texture detail are so dumbed down there isn't a point in running at that higher rez.

And who said it'd be something for the future regarding the platform? All I've seen is possibility of 4k for videos but no for gaming.

I don't get why it's so hard for you to understand that we won't see 4k gaming on PS4. Sony themselves have even said this. 4k rez won't be adapted by the masses either so even the video thing will by for a minimal niche group where Sony as a hardware company will want to push 4k TVs. And I wouldn't be calling some obscure tech demo or as proof it will happen. The very large likely hood is 4k won't be done via gaming. But I guess you could have fun playing tic tac toe in 4k

 

[LaBounti]

I'd rather not see a PS2 quality looking game running on a $$$$$$ 4k TV. However maybe a game like Myst with just 4K 2d Pictures would be epic. I'm kidding.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

To summarise, you're of the opinion that the PS4's development isn't done already - fine, I think it flies in the face of its announcement and the release of dev kits and some last minute changes we've already seen.

I guess we'd just have to agree to disagree at this point.

It has been said from Sony it is not finalised yet IIRC. Same goes for controller so you might see some little tweaks here and there regarding hardware of console.

Agree to disagree .

While I see the point you're attempting to make, you're not making the best case for yourself by comparing a 5870 Eyefinity 6 to a 7870, which has more stream processors than the 7870 thus allowing it to handle such an resource-intensive load without much struggle at all.

Oh, and the 5870 E6 has neither lower peak memory bandwidth or memory density.

I'm not comparing it to a 7870 but to the PS4 GPU. PS4 has 8GB GDDR5 at 176GB/s. I do realise though some of it would be used for OS and CPU side of things though but it should be beyond a 5870 Eyefinity 6 2GB GDDR5 153.6GB/s.

Now on to the thing about stream processors. I will use the 7850 for comparison as it is closer in TFLOPS to the one in the PS4 and uses GCN architecture. The GCN architecture is much more better than what was used in 5870 (VLIW5). You can also see transistor count of 7850 is higher too. I think architecture is more important, stream processors that are more effective is more important. Otherwise Nvidia and AMDs new architectures would have been struggling against the HD 5000 series a lot.

I can see where you are coming from regarding this and I think if a game utilised 5870s raw power, it would do better.

However as you can see on here a 7850 using the older lower performance drivers does rather well against a 5870 at high resolution. I know it is 1GB but there is also a 6950 with 2GB that it beats too:

My point is that if something like a 5870 can play games at 5K quite well, playing games on a GPU with more memory capacity and bandwidth and most likely better graphics performance, then at 5.5MP less resolution a decent 4K experience should be doable. Something like Wipeout making a return would be good to show off in 4K.

 

[cuco33]

I'd rather not see a PS2 quality looking game running on a $$$$$$ 4k TV. However maybe a game like Myst with just 4K 2d Pictures would be epic. I'm kidding.

Yeah, I wouldn't want that either lol. The norm this gen was roughly 720p. Next gen it will most likely be 1080p, on average better performance, faster frame rates, more on screen going on, etc.

 

[Earth]

Yeah, I wouldn't want that either lol. The norm this gen was roughly 720p. Next gen it will most likely be 1080p, on average better performance, faster frame rates, more on screen going on, etc.

Next gen will be pretty much 1080p exclusive, Im sure of that. The fear of 720p games returning is based on the Battlefield 4 720p/60fps rumor. Even if that rumor turns out to be true, it doesnt mean DICE was unable to run the game at 1080p on PS4. If they can get the Xbox 720 hardware, which is rumored to be considerably weaker then the PS4, to run BF4 at 720p/60fps, then surely the PS4 could have sacrificed some of that 60fps and run at 1080p.

30fps games will always be with us. If the PS4 had a GTX680, there would still be 30fps games.

 

[Wardez]

Hopefully they also get rid of HDCP so we can finally record off HDMI too.

 

[dice1998]

Hopefully they also get rid of HDCP so we can finally record off HDMI too.

Why not use FRAPS?

 

[cuco33]

Next gen will be pretty much 1080p exclusive, Im sure of that. The fear of 720p games returning is based on the Battlefield 4 720p/60fps rumor. Even if that rumor turns out to be true, it doesnt mean DICE was unable to run the game at 1080p on PS4. If they can get the Xbox 720 hardware, which is rumored to be considerably weaker then the PS4, to run BF4 at 720p/60fps, then surely the PS4 could have sacrificed some of that 60fps and run at 1080p.

30fps games will always be with us. If the PS4 had a GTX680, there would still be 30fps games.

So far what's been rumored is based on leaked gaming articles from Edge and Game Informer magazines set to release apparently this month about BF4 being 720p 60fps on next gen consoles. The big plus from that is apparently the PS4 (and X720?) will have 64 player MP maps (forget the visual bump from current gen, MP count in a BF game is HUGE!! ). We'll have to wait until leaked articles become official though.
But if true, there's that trade off I was referring to. On PC you'll get 1080p (or higher) rez, 60fps, more effects going on along with 64 player count. Won't be night and day difference like current BF3 console vs BF3 PC but there will still be a different with PC having the edge (after all BF4 is the lead platform!)

PS4 doesn't have a GTX 680 grade GPU. It has the power of a GTX 660, a great card, and this is based solely on Tflopz power figure from Sony's own press event, info and website. If the PS4 had a GTX 680, 30fps wouldn't be the norm.

 

[LaBounti]

Developers will forever push the limits. The limit isn't 60fps.

 

[Samus]

Person responsible for system has said, it is something they are “in the initial stages of supporting 4Kx2K in games” as well as something he is personally interested in. Maybe even Knack will get 4K support. I think there is a higher chance of there being no 720p only games personally.

Where has anyone said that? So now you think a launch title may have 4k? WHY? Nobody has a 4k TV yet, why would they bother wasting time on something no one would use.

As far as i'm concerned there has been no suggestion of 4k gaming on PS4 from anyone that matters, there has been plenty of talk about 1080p30 and even 720p though. I mean if Killzone is limited to 30fps at 1080p doesn't that suggest to you it won't be able to maintain that same 30fps at 4k? Seems like common sense to me.

 

[thelvynau]

It has been said from Sony it is not finalised yet IIRC. Same goes for controller so you might see some little tweaks here and there regarding hardware of console.

Agree to disagree .

I'm not comparing it to a 7870 but to the PS4 GPU. PS4 has 8GB GDDR5 at 176GB/s. I do realise though some of it would be used for OS and CPU side of things though but it should be beyond a 5870 Eyefinity 6 2GB GDDR5 153.6GB/s.

Now on to the thing about stream processors. I will use the 7850 for comparison as it is closer in TFLOPS to the one in the PS4 and uses GCN architecture. The GCN architecture is much more better than what was used in 5870 (VLIW5). You can also see transistor count of 7850 is higher too. I think architecture is more important, stream processors that are more effective is more important. Otherwise Nvidia and AMDs new architectures would have been struggling against the HD 5000 series a lot.

I can see where you are coming from regarding this and I think if a game utilised 5870s raw power, it would do better.

However as you can see on here a 7850 using the older lower performance drivers does rather well against a 5870 at high resolution. I know it is 1GB but there is also a 6950 with 2GB that it beats too:

My point is that if something like a 5870 can play games at 5K quite well, playing games on a GPU with more memory capacity and bandwidth and most likely better graphics performance, then at 5.5MP less resolution a decent 4K experience should be doable. Something like Wipeout making a return would be good to show off in 4K.

Your views seem to defy logic.

As stated by Simon above its already been stated by Sony that they will consider it later but not on ps4.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Hopefully they also get rid of HDCP so we can finally record off HDMI too.

The PS4 built-in recording feature should come in handy .

Where has anyone said that? So now you think a launch title may have 4k? WHY? Nobody has a 4k TV yet, why would they bother wasting time on something no one would use.

As far as i'm concerned there has been no suggestion of 4k gaming on PS4 from anyone that matters, there has been plenty of talk about 1080p30 and even 720p though. I mean if Killzone is limited to 30fps at 1080p doesn't that suggest to you it won't be able to maintain that same 30fps at 4k? Seems like common sense to me.

Article: Link Translation: Link

I only mention Knack as it seems a kind of game that could be made 4K but it may be a graphics intensive game, I don't know, just a suggestion as Mark is also involved in making that game. Could even be a future update to the game to add-in support when 4K is more relevant.

So far the only talk of 720p AFAIK is someone saying he made it up regarding Battlefield 4.

So you are saying lead system architect of PS4 who is also a game developer on platform is no one that matters regarding 4K and PS4?

I have not said something like Killzone at 4K. Games less resource intensive that run 1080p 60FPS with a lot of post processing stands a chance.

Your views seem to defy logic.

As stated by Simon above its already been stated by Sony that they will consider it later but not on ps4.

If you are talking about what you have quoted of me saying defying logic then can you explain why for example a GTX 670 does so well against a 5870 even though it has less shader units and as a result less theoretical processing power.

Where has it been said it is coming later but not on PS4?

 

[Samus]

Given that it's a translation it's hard to say exactly what he's referrring to, whether it's to PS4 or to gaming in general as a game developer.

What does seem clearer is the second part.

If we consider purely memory bandwidth, with 4K, securing 2 displays worth of display buffer requires 10GB/sec. That just for simply displaying.
This is our simple answer for why we’re focusing on just the FullHD experience.

Note he doesn't say "For now" or "To begin with", it's a dead end statement.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Given that it's a translation it's hard to say exactly what he's referrring to, whether it's to PS4 or to gaming in general as a game developer.

What does seem clearer is the second part.



Note he doesn't say "For now" or "To begin with", it's a dead end statement.

If you look at original source, and use a translator online, something like "just" does not appear in it so could be just a translator interpretation adding that word to sum up some other words. Without that word it still makes sense.

What I gather from it is they are focussing on full hd as expected, 4K being very resource intensive on bandwidth as a reason why and are also in early stages of 4Kx2K games which something Mark has an interest in (Or 4K in general).

 

[thelvynau]

If you look at original source, and use a translator online, something like "just" does not appear in it so could be just a translator interpretation adding that word to sum up some other words. Without that word it still makes sense.

What I gather from it is they are focussing on full hd as expected, 4K being very resource intensive on bandwidth as a reason why and are also in early stages of 4Kx2K games which something Mark has an interest in (Or 4K in general).

I must be missing something because I still dont see how you think 4k gaming is coming anytime soon.

 

[Musolini187]

so you guys dont think the "next" gen is really weak to be considered next gen?

 

[Samus]

Dunno, why don't you tell us how you think it isn't for the nth time?

 

[LaBounti]

so you guys dont think the "next" gen is really weak to be considered next gen?

When you say weak do mean incapable of something? I think the price will determine how weak it is. If its $99-$350 then it will most certainly be weak.

We you Oh yeah! Please tell me you get that?

 

[Luminis]

so you guys dont think the "next" gen is really weak to be considered next gen?

Meh, if the Wii was considered next gen compared to the GameCube, anything can be considered "next gen". These terms depend mostly on the time of release, in my opinion.

 

[cuco33]

Where has anyone said that? So now you think a launch title may have 4k? WHY? Nobody has a 4k TV yet, why would they bother wasting time on something no one would use.

As far as i'm concerned there has been no suggestion of 4k gaming on PS4 from anyone that matters, there has been plenty of talk about 1080p30 and even 720p though. I mean if Killzone is limited to 30fps at 1080p doesn't that suggest to you it won't be able to maintain that same 30fps at 4k? Seems like common sense to me.

Common sense and logic. But according to Sauder_Ali, "4K is not as taxing as quite a lot of people think."

I do not see PS4 playing a game in 4k at launch or throughout it's console life. If we do see it, it will be massively limited to some tic tac toe or basic Pacman game, which seriously what would be the point??

Sony would love to sell you another TV though. They lured you in with FullHD 1080P after selling you a 720p/1080i set, then again with SmartTV capabilities and 3D. Now they'll push 4k, and is most likely why video will be supported

 

[TheDabbinDave]

Meh, if the Wii was considered next gen compared to the GameCube, anything can be considered "next gen". These terms depend mostly on the time of release, in my opinion.

The Wii2 is only Nintendo's "next generation", not the gaining industry's. They are playing in their own sandbox and their closest competition is Leap Frog. Sure they make gazillions of dollars, so does McDonalds. I'd take a $7 burger over a 99 cent turd on a bun they serve at the "golden arches".

 

[Samus]

Generation has nothing to do with performance, quality or power, simply the time period they appear in and follow on the previous generation. Wii U is part of the same generation as PS4 & Nextbox.

 

[Musolini187]

Meh, if the Wii was considered next gen compared to the GameCube, anything can be considered "next gen". These terms depend mostly on the time of release, in my opinion.

completely agreed. next gen was always a term that people used for a new generation of consoles far more powerful than their predecessors and showing new stuff not seen before.

this new next gen is only a small improvement imo and isnt worthy of the title next gen in the way next gen used to be viewed. the technological advancements of this upcoming gen are lackluster.

also nintendo hasnt made a worthwhile console after the snes days, all their consoles have been worthless but made them good money. nitendo only was ahead of tyhe competition for a very small amount of time, with the gamecube (and to a smaller degree wiiu). they make current gen consoles that are slightly more powerful than current ones and call them next gen.

the new ps4 and 720 aint nintendo bad, but next gen is a word i wouldnt call it spec wise.

 

[shadynader]

The argument is that the PS3's hardware wasn't as much behind the curve as the PS4's is now. It's a pretty simple statement - and not one I thought would be dragged out like this. I actually don't quite get why people even gcontest it - it's what Sony's been shooting for and you don't need to be a rocket scientist to understand it. More affordable console, less focus on hardware power and so on.

I agree, there is a gap and the gap will increase, but to look at it the way you are is pointless. You have to realise the whole system as the package because of the benefits it provides (higher bandwidth, smaller OS footprint, less clunky, much more efficient DX 11.1+ equivalent).

Also, at this point in time, the PS4 is better than roughly 90% of all PC's used to play games give or take*. Thats about 9 out of 10 PC's used for gaming are underpowered compared to it. I know that means nothing to you, me or anyone else in the rough 10% bracket but thats the way it goes I suppose. You get what you pay for. By pleasing you and me, you are no doubt going to alienate a lot of others with the price point.

give or take* - feel free to scrutinize my conclusions as they are rough
http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/

EDIT: There is probably something in the steam website for hopefully someone to do us all a favor and put this 4k debate to bed.

 

[Luminis]

You get what you pay for. By pleasing you and me, you are no doubt going to alienate a lot of others with the price point.

That's why I think I'm not really part of the target audience for the console

 

[shadynader]

Yeah, in some ways I feel the same, but remind myself, no matter how much I spend on my PC I am not gonna be able to play a lot of games I want to play (Forza, GT, Uncharted, etc) Also some games that are multi platform just don't do it for me on PC (mainly sports games for some reason).

Obviously there are many multi platform games I would not dream of wasting my money to play on inferior hardware, even the upcoming next gen which is a shame to say so early on but it is what it is and part of the reason why I spend so much on my PC I suppose.

That, and Half Life 3

 

[LaBounti]

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/

I've been trying to relay this message for the long time. Generalizing "PC" is a vague statement.

 

[Samus]

completely agreed. next gen was always a term that people used for a new generation of consoles far more powerful than their predecessors and showing new stuff not seen before.

this new next gen is only a small improvement imo and isnt worthy of the title next gen in the way next gen used to be viewed. the technological advancements of this upcoming gen are lackluster.

also nintendo hasnt made a worthwhile console after the snes days, all their consoles have been worthless but made them good money. nitendo only was ahead of tyhe competition for a very small amount of time, with the gamecube (and to a smaller degree wiiu). they make current gen consoles that are slightly more powerful than current ones and call them next gen.

the new ps4 and 720 aint nintendo bad, but next gen is a word i wouldnt call it spec wise.

You know what the word generation means, right? If you have a child they would be the next generation in your family line, they have their own child and that's the next generation again.

Consoles don't reproduce of course but it's the same basic usage of the word. Specs have nothing to do with it.

 

[Musolini187]

You know what the word generation means, right? If you have a child they would be the next generation in your family line, they have their own child and that's the next generation again.

Consoles don't reproduce of course but it's the same basic usage of the word. Specs have nothing to do with it.

i know what generation means. till now every time a next gen console was released it marked a new point in technological advancement and produced specs that were above the norm for some time to come. nothing even close to that with this new next gen. why are you trying so hard to defend this upcoming gen? the jump in specs is too small for my preference and the same goes for a lot of people. what's so great about having a next gen console that's already outdated before its release.