PlayStation 4 General DiscussionPS4

[dr_slump]

I'm referring to "true" 120hz being outputted via a PC graphics card with which you can run any game on a "true" 120hz monitor in 2D.

I know, but like I said we'll never see PS4 games running at 120fps.

LCD Televisions create 120hz/240hz or even 480hz with post-processing techniques, creating a very fluid picture for films, but of course this creates a very noticable input lag in gaming (which is why TV sets have a gaming mode to reduce lag).

Too bad.

So there are several monitors on the market that accept true 120hz signal and if the PS4 outputs at 120hz, even it "only" reaches 60fps, there is still a significant improvement in fast motion fluidity... most PC gamers a noticed a definite difference and these monitors really shine if you have a PC capable of going well beyond 60fps...

That's not how it works. If you display the exact same picture two times instead of once it's not going to change anything. Go and look up how motion interpolation works to reduce judder and ghosting/bluring (although modern LCDs do not show any noticeable blur anymore).
Downside is the appearance of visual artifacts and soap effects, more or less visual depending on the used TV due to this interpolation feature.

Doubling the exact same frames doesn't do anything. It's always a mathematical process needed which attempts to figure out the middle ground. Do it on a TV and you get input lag. Do as alternative increase the fps processing to 120Hz on a console... no forget it, it will never happen on the PS4. Do interpolation as post-processing on the console... you don't really expect that to happen? I mean, we don't even get interpolation for native 30fps to 60Hz sources (in games, don't know about movies).

I was just wondering about this... lol, I don't see why they wouldn't allow this unless it has a significant impact on how the PS4 architecture can operate... but 3D shoundn't be any less of a strain.

And I'm wondering if you can see any blur or judder when watching natively running 60Hz. Take a strong pc which easily hits 60fps, limit framerate (use v-sync if you want) to 60fps and then tell me if you see any blur or judder. (You surely won't see any judder nor will you see any noticeable blur on a modern halfway decent LCD TV).

Shouldn't be any less of a strain? Now, I don't really see what you're trying to say with this... ehm...

3D does have a significant impact on the performance of games. Expecting a PS4 game to run in 3D mode at 120Hz is an a hundred times more ridiculous task than for normal in 2D displayed games.

 

[occasionalracer]

That's not how it works. If you display the exact same picture two times instead of once it's not going to change anything. Go and look up how motion interpolation works to reduce judder and ghosting/bluring (although modern LCDs do not show any noticeable blur anymore).
Downside is the appearance of visual artifacts and soap effects, more or less visual depending on the used TV due to this interpolation feature.

But you are getting 2 real frames, not a post-processed middle ground between the 2 frames @ 120hz or 4 frames @ 240hz with a slight lag issue also. In films that are shot at 24fps @ 240hz looks impeccable even over 120hz.

Doubling the exact same frames doesn't do anything. It's always a mathematical process needed which attempts to figure out the middle ground. Do it on a TV and you get input lag. Do as alternative increase the fps processing to 120Hz on a console... no forget it, it will never happen on the PS4.

I may be wrong on this (I'm not actually very techy) but isn't the PS3 currently outputting 2 x 60hz to achieve 3D?... I believe PS3 could and should be able to pull off 120hz in 2D.

Do interpolation as post-processing on the console... you don't really expect that to happen? I mean, we don't even get interpolation for native 30fps to 60Hz sources (in games, don't know about movies).

Maybe not, but straight 60fps @ 120hz would still look better.

And I'm wondering if you can see any blur or judder when watching natively running 60Hz. Take a strong pc which easily hits 60fps, limit framerate (use v-sync if you want) to 60fps and then tell me if you see any blur or judder. (You surely won't see any judder nor will you see any noticeable blur on a modern halfway decent LCD TV).

I have a decent PC able to hit 60fps with my 60hz monitor and with v-sync it is quite excellent, but I've been browsing around for a new monitor/ triple monitors a few months down the road... I want to make sure I invest and future-proof myself, so that was why the question came up.. and if PS4 allows it great, if not, shoot... 3 monitors for the PC only then.

Shouldn't be any less of a strain? Now, I don't really see what you're trying to say with this... ehm...

3D does have a significant impact on the performance of games. Expecting a PS4 game to run in 3D mode at 120Hz is an a hundred times more ridiculous task than for normal in 2D displayed games.

2 x 120hz is not going happen no, but according all kinds of people reviewing these 120hz monitors the improvement is worth it... that's why we see TV and manufacturers going past 60hz. Simple.

Is it worth the extra money for the sometimes un-noticeable visual gameplay advantage? That's an individual question, but without a doubt when you're talking about racing games, it is perhaps the most apparent genre of gaming in which it really matters. You know with the rapid speed of cars and racetrack/landscape flying by and all.

 

[dr_slump]

But you are getting 2 real frames, not a post-processed middle ground between the 2 frames @ 120hz or 4 frames @ 240hz with a slight lag issue also. In films that are shot at 24fps @ 240hz looks impeccable even over 120hz.

Huh? Did you even read my post? All those high Hz displaying TVs do use interpolation to calculate the middle ground between pictures to smooth them. Displaying 2 times the exact frame doesn't change anything.

I may be wrong on this (I'm not actually very techy) but isn't the PS3 currently outputting 2 x 60hz to achieve 3D?... I believe PS3 could and should be able to pull off 120hz in 2D.

No, it never outputs 120Hz. 60Hz is all you get, which doesn't matter because there's no 3D game which hits such high fps rates.

Maybe not, but straight 60fps @ 120hz would still look better.

Bloody hell, that's only because of the motion interpolation. Displaying the exact same frames two times, which is the case without post-processing, in the same timeframe gives exactly the same result as displaying it once in the same timeframe. C'mon, this should be logic (no worries, I'm not basing this on personal conclusions.).

I have a decent PC able to hit 60fps with my 60hz monitor and with v-sync it is quite excellent, but I've been browsing around for a new monitor/ triple monitors a few months down the road... I want to make sure I invest and future-proof myself, so that was why the question came up.. and if PS4 allows it great, if not, shoot... 3 monitors for the PC only then.

Buy 120Hz monitors for the PC if you want. A PC usually hits higher framerates, it makes sense then.
And just saying, you can use 120Hz monitors on a 60Hz source without any problems.

2 x 120hz is not going happen no, but according all kinds of people reviewing these 120hz monitors the improvement is worth it... that's why we see TV and manufacturers going past 60hz. Simple.

2x 120Hz, what?
Mate, if it says 3D at 120Hz then it is 120Hz in total, not 240Hz. This does actually result in an effective 60Hz framerate.
You say you have a PC, then buy those 120Hz monitors. 3D in 120Hz is supersmooth, makes fun on a PC.

Is it worth the extra money for the sometimes un-noticeable visual gameplay advantage? That's an individual question, but without a doubt when you're talking about racing games, it is perhaps the most apparent genre of gaming in which it really matters. You know with the rapid speed of cars and racetrack/landscape flying by and all.

Most of my TVs, and I have quite a handful of them, get noticeable input lag with interpolation (manufacturers give it another name, differs from TV to TV - marketing reason) turned on. If you don't care... ok. (Input lag does only matter in games, not when watching TV or movies)

But you say you're going to use them for PC and PS4, in this case you can surely buy 120Hz monitors or TVs (most likely not multiple TVs ).

But only for the PS4, nonsense.

 

[LeMansAid]

Yes, the greatest effect that motion interpolation will have is to introduce even more processing lag. 60fps is a lot of frames, think about it. I'd be more concerned with how long it takes to see that first frame. There is a reason why most of my best gaming achievements come while using an hd crt.

 

[Eks]

Yes, the greatest effect that motion interpolation will have is to introduce even more processing lag. 60fps is a lot of frames, think about it. I'd be more concerned with how long it takes to see that first frame. There is a reason why most of my best gaming achievements come while using an hd crt.

Yes, the one thing I dislike about HDTVs is the input lag. It's probably why my brother still has his CRT.

 

[occasionalracer]

Huh? Did you even read my post? All those high Hz displaying TVs do use interpolation to calculate the middle ground between pictures to smooth them. Displaying 2 times the exact frame doesn't change anything.

Hello again Yes, I read your post, however the reasoning why many people have found an improvement in gaming where high-speed motion matters in gaming, is that even 60fps on 120hz display compared with 60fps @ 60hz is apparently superior... this is because the 60 frames aren't always completely synced with the 60hz of display time, even when v-synced... this means there are some frames skipped/doubled, maybe 5, maybe 10... clearly once you surpass 60fps (I know the PS4 probably won't) it makes a lot more sense, and I'm expecting to build a top spec PC next year that can surpass of 60fps @ 1920x1080 x 3.

No, it never outputs 120Hz. 60Hz is all you get, which doesn't matter because there's no 3D game which hits such high fps rates.

I believe you're incorrect, all 3D displays are 120hz combined, 60hz per eye.. same with Sony's Simul-View Displays, 120hz showing 2 players two different 60hz full screen images.

Bloody hell, that's only because of the motion interpolation. Displaying the exact same frames two times, which is the case without post-processing, in the same timeframe gives exactly the same result as displaying it once in the same timeframe. C'mon, this should be logic (no worries, I'm not basing this on personal conclusions.).

This is common logic yes, I am however going by personal reviews of peoples experience and most say they will not go back to 60hz, even using old low res games.. I don't think it's some kind of delusion either, the improvement may be minor but it's there...lol, I don't know, I need one myself to make this judgement myself.

Buy 120Hz monitors for the PC if you want. A PC usually hits higher framerates, it makes sense then.
And just saying, you can use 120Hz monitors on a 60Hz source without any problems.

We'll do...
..and yes, I know that.

2x 120Hz, what?
Mate, if it says 3D at 120Hz then it is 120Hz in total, not 240Hz. This does actually result in an effective 60Hz framerate.
You say you have a PC, then buy those 120Hz monitors. 3D in 120Hz is supersmooth, makes fun on a PC.

You're the one who brought 3D into the picture... like I said above 3D is 120hz which mean PS3's must be outputting 2 x 60hz, so hypothetically PS3 and PS4 should be capable of being set to 120hz 2D without effecting performance or anything..

Most of my TVs, and I have quite a handful of them, get noticeable input lag with interpolation (manufacturers give it another name, differs from TV to TV - marketing reason) turned on. If you don't care... ok. (Input lag does only matter in games, not when watching TV or movies)

Definitely yes, it only matters for games which is why I'm doubtful of TV's going past native 60hz, unless manufacturers feel there's a need for it, like if Sony and Microsoft enabling 120hz output on their consoles, so if anything Sony would be the first to implement this into their Bravias.

Otherwise, yes, movies, sports and shows look superb on my friends 240hz Samsung compared to my expensive and beloved 60 hz 1080p Bravia from 2007...

 

[dr_slump]

I believe you're incorrect, all 3D displays are 120hz combined, 60hz per eye.. same with Sony's Simul-View Displays, 120hz showing 2 players two different 60hz full screen images.

Nah, 60Hz 3D displays do exist, although you'll only be able to watch stuff with an effective framerate of 30fps (per eye). Sure, most 3D TV are 120Hz, but this results in 60Hz per eye, which is also the effective framerate you actually see as human. Because it shows basically two times the exact same scene, but from a different perspective.

3D is not generally equal 3D and depending on what type of 3D you use, it won't always halve the framerate (anaglyph as example). Normally you use the polarisation or the shutter technology, both result in a halving of the visual framerate.
But you basically just wrote that above.

I said the PS3 does not output 120Hz, and it really never does. 60Hz is the maximum on the PS3.

This is common logic yes, I am however going by personal reviews of peoples experience and most say they will not go back to 60hz, even using old low res games.. I don't think it's some kind of delusion either, the improvement may be minor but it's there...lol, I don't know, I need one myself to make this judgement myself.

On PC, sure! When watching TV where reaction times doesn matter and you can use motion interpolation, sure! But only for the PS3, nope.

In your case yes, simply because you're apparently going to use it for more than just your PS3.

We'll do...
..and yes, I know that.

In your case that's absolutely fine.

You're the one who brought 3D into the picture... like I said above 3D is 120hz which mean PS3's must be outputting 2 x 60hz, so hypothetically PS3 and PS4 should be capable of being set to 120hz 2D without effecting performance or anything..

I surely did.
You must know that all those 120Hz 3D TV do not even accept a 120Hz source in 3D format. It's 60Hz and then the frames get cut into two halves.

But honestly, we shouldn't get off the point with this 3D stuff, which is actually a special case. I know, it was me who initiated it.

Definitely yes, it only matters for games which is why I'm doubtful of TV's going past native 60hz, unless manufacturers feel there's a need for it, like if Sony and Microsoft enabling 120hz output on their consoles, so if anything Sony would be the first to implement this into their Bravias.

The PS3 and PS4 will only support 60Hz.
You must know, the funny thing is that the HDMI standard doesn't even support video output in 120Hz.



In your case, buy a 120Hz TV/Monitor if you're ready to pay a little more. It's alright then.

But take sure that it has a Dual-Link-DVI input for your PC, otherwise you won't be able to profitate from 60+fps in PC games (because HDMI is limited to 60Hz).

 

[occasionalracer]

Nah, 60Hz 3D displays do exist, although you'll only be able to watch stuff with an effective framerate of 30fps (per eye). Sure, most 3D TV are 120Hz, but this results in 60Hz per eye, which is also the effective framerate you actually see as human. Because it shows basically two times the exact same scene, but from a different perspective.

3D is not generally equal 3D and depending on what type of 3D you use, it won't always halve the framerate (anaglyph as example). Normally you use the polarisation or the shutter technology, both result in a halving of the visual framerate.
But you basically just wrote that above.

I said the PS3 does not output 120Hz, and it really never does. 60Hz is the maximum on the PS3.

Well that's quite interesting... (minus the part I was proven wrong), I'm still maybe not 100% sure how, as far as I know, all 3D TV's and monitors are advertised 120hz when according to your graph an HDMI cable supposedly can do up to 60hz at only 720p res. for games.. what? Also not sure what "frame packing" means, sounds like a compressed format which 3D displays then encode.. anywho, thanks for the clarifying with those charts.

The PS3 and PS4 will only support 60Hz.
You must know, the funny thing is that the HDMI standard doesn't even support video output in 120Hz.

You're right, I wasn't aware that 120hz can't pass through HDMI cables, so unless PS4 has a Dual Link DVI or Display Port, my 120hz fantasies are crushed.

In your case, buy a 120Hz TV/Monitor if you're ready to pay a little more. It's alright then.

Ya I'm definitely going for a new model monitor that I know I'll be able to buy the other 2 next year still.

 

[dr_slump]

Well that's quite interesting... (minus the part I was proven wrong), I'm still maybe not 100% sure how, as far as I know, all 3D TV's and monitors are advertised 120hz when according to your graph an HDMI cable supposedly can do up to 60hz at only 720p res. for games.. what? Also not sure what "frame packing" means, sounds like a compressed format which 3D displays then encode.. anywho, thanks for the clarifying with those charts.

With activated 3D, the pictures for the left and right view get packed into one frame, which then get's transmitted. In total 60 of those packed/combined frames get transmitted per second (60Hz). Eventually these frames get then splitted by the TV and shown as single pictures. Which results in 120 shown pictures per second (120Hz), but only an effectve framerate of 60fps (left and right show the same scene).

On the other hand, the increased frame size explains the performance drop. It's like playing on higher resolutions.

You're right, I wasn't aware that 120hz can't pass through HDMI cables, so unless PS4 has a Dual Link DVI or Display Port, my 120hz fantasies are crushed.

Kinda

 

[LeMansAid]

Otherwise, yes, movies, sports and shows look superb on my friends 240hz Samsung compared to my expensive and beloved 60 hz 1080p Bravia from 2007...

This is a matter of (bad) taste. A display with motion interpolation switched on always looks terrible to me, but people seem to have become very accustomed to it. Now, even some plasmas come equipped with the setting, despite not needing it all due to superior motion handling. All it does is make images look like home video, and introduces artifacts, impurities, and lag.

It seems that you may still not be clear on the fact that a 120hz computer monitor and a "120hz" tv are completely different things.

 

[Musolini187]

Yes, the one thing I dislike about HDTVs is the input lag. It's probably why my brother still has his CRT.

For some reason a lot of people do not believe this lag that is caused by hdtv's or even the input lag that is systen/game dependent.

 

[priesty_lfc]

I've never experienced this lag, most TV's have game modes now which reduces it great deal but I've never played 'this gen' on a CRT so am unsure.

Is it really that bad?

 

[dr_slump]

I've never experienced this lag, most TV's have game modes now which reduces it great deal but I've never played 'this gen' on a CRT so am unsure.

Is it really that bad?

It massively depends on the TV/Monitor you're using. I have a 120Hz LG 42" TV upstairs and it's terrible for gaming. Doesn't even have a propper gaming mode or similar (menu structure is terrible too and... ).
Input lag is an estimated 1-2 tenths or even more, unplayable.

 

[LeMansAid]

I've never experienced this lag, most TV's have game modes now which reduces it great deal but I've never played 'this gen' on a CRT so am unsure.

Is it really that bad?

Try going back to something like PaRappa The Rappa on a digital tv and it will end in tears, or baldness, or the like. My receiver adds lag (even when setting the resolution to through), different picture modes on my plasma add varying amounts of lag. It's all down to how much "thinking time" the gear needs. Game modes help by lowering the image processing that is done, but it can only do so much. I believe that hd crts are ever so slightly more "thinky" than sd crts, but an hd crt is the sweet spot for resolution and lag time. I have three of the "best crts ever made", KV-HR36M31. There are equivalent models in each country. I paid a total of around $200 for all three. Love them.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I never had this input lag with my HDTV, I played FPS games, racing games, fighting games on PS3 with it, feels fine. It works great with m PS2 as well. Sometimes I used it to play PC games directly connected to my laptop - for playing NASCAR 2003, GPL, and some old PC games - mostly simulation.

 

[LeMansAid]

I never had this input lag with my HDTV, I played FPS games, racing games, fighting games on PS3 with it, feels fine. It works great with m PS2 as well. Sometimes I used it to play PC games directly connected to my laptop - for playing NASCAR 2003, GPL, and some old PC games - mostly simulation.

We adapt quite well , but that does not remove reality. There is a reason why rhythmic games now tend include timing calibration, where that was never seen "back in the day".

 

[Monatsende]

Woah, this thread starts getting very complicated/technically.
I bet PS4 will have good looking (better than on PS3) games. `nuff said for me.

 

[MXH]

Something else than TVs and monitors:

Twitter Rises Up In Protest Over The PS4's Rumored Used Games DRM:
http://kotaku.com/twitter-rises-up-in-protest-over-the-ps4s-rumored-used-509984593

 

[Eks]

I've never experienced this lag, most TV's have game modes now which reduces it great deal but I've never played 'this gen' on a CRT so am unsure.

Is it really that bad?

My 32" Samsung, while definitely playable, has quite noticeable input lag. It doesn't have game mode so I'm stuck with it, however I plan on buying a new one soon.

Still though, I love the instant response on CRTs.

Woah, this thread starts getting very complicated/technically.
I bet PS4 will have good looking (better than on PS3) games. `nuff said for me.

I hope they listen. Microsoft sure has as they disable comments on their video on YouTube.

 

[Samus]

All TVs are different, my Samsung HDTV is excellent for lag, measured at 14ms by a reviewer. It's not noticeable compared to lag free CRTs.

 

[jabofu]

All TVs are different, my Samsung HDTV is excellent for lag, measured at 14ms by a reviewer. It's not noticeable compared to lag free CRTs.

I upgraded from a Toshiba 37 Regza to a Toshiba 46TL933G. Very little input lag. Good picture and good prices. I think that they are pretty good for gaming, but they dont get advertised for gaming much.

LG on the other hand has many models with extreme input lag.

Something else than TVs and monitors:

Twitter Rises Up In Protest Over The PS4's Rumored Used Games DRM:
http://kotaku.com/twitter-rises-up-in-protest-over-the-ps4s-rumored-used-509984593

Isnt it maybe just a similar thing to the already implemented online-passes? The code you have to enter, to use the games multiplayer functions.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Interesting way to invite a VIP to an E3 event, I wonder why they sent a gold PSone...

 

[sems4arsenal]

Great o see how twitter is reacting to the DRM issue,hope they listen.

 

[Eks]

Interesting way to invite a VIP to an E3 event, I wonder why they sent a gold PSone...

..umm...does it work?

 

[nealcropper]

I don't see why it wouldn't work.

I'd love one.

 

[dice1998]

I wish it was the boxier Playstation but beggars can't be choosers I guess.

Either way, if I recieved a golden PS1, the first thing i'd do is yell "Gray Fox!"

Those who played MGS1 will understand. Those who have played MGS1 and don't understand: replay the gray fox fight scene in otacon's computer room.

 

[Ddrizle]

Sony employees respond to "PS4 No DRM" campaign.

 

[Lizard]

I think they were planning it but then are going to drop it after the reaction to the XBone. If they drop that and address the other criticisms of the XBone with the PS4 then I see a ps2 like domination of the market again and I am sure they do as well.

 

[sumbrownkid]

I'm under the impression that Sony is leaving DRM up to the publishers?

 

[Robin]

Interesting way to invite a VIP to an E3 event, I wonder why they sent a gold PSone...

Because your going to need one to play your old games when you buy a PS4

This does interest me though, did they restart small scale production somewhere just to make those? are they made in Japan? are they new or just old units found somewhere in Sony and resprayed?