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- tribolik
supercharged PC architecture
Is that a new technical term or do you work for Sony marketing department.
supercharged PC architecture
Got any evidence of this? Or is this more the when Sony doesn't do something it's because it's really hard, but when MS doesn't do something it's because of their innate desire to bend the customer over?
The lack of support of BC after two years of the lifecycle is a good sign that they are going to bend you over for something. Not only that, 461 out of 967 games, or rather 51% of the games released on the console, obtained BC support. Some of the games were virtually unplayable even with the patch.
This is a good frame of reference.
That isn't to say that Sony didn't do the same thing because they did.
Is not bollocks, best example for this would be ... PS2 software emulation, initially the had a physical chip capable of PS2 emulation, however this was way too costly for Sony in the first few years (as you said), therefore they decided to drop it.Anyway, my point was in response to Akira's assertion that Sony doesn't provide BC because it's hard, but MS doesn't provide BC because they hate you and want to make your life miserable. Which is obviously bollocks.
Both companies don't do it because it doesn't make them enough money, anything else is merely good marketing.
Is that a new technical term or do you work for Sony marketing department.![]()
Because backwards compatibility is easy for MS? Well, I don't know if they're that far ahead of Sony when it comes to coding and such - if you do, tell us... Thing is, even if the architecture is actually similar (given that the 360 uses a tripple core PPC and a conventional GPU as opposed to a six-core APU, but never mind that), they're still using different APIs.PS3 backwards compatibility on the new architecture is ... hard.
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MS doesn't do BC out of greed though
The funny thing is that 'turbocharged' would be more appropriate, because of the inherent, higher latency of GDDR5 compared to DDR3. Which is why computers run DDR3 for RAM. It lacks the bandwith of GDDR5, but that generally isn't much of a problem for a system's RAM as the nature of a CPU will generally be to deliver data sequentially - but in quick succession. GPUs, on the other hand, can more easily deal with higher latency and, in turn, make use of higher bandwith. Which is why I find it funny that everybody is like "ZOMG 8GB GDDR!!!!1one"... There's a reason why PCs are set up the way they are, but, hey, as long as Sony can sell their system by using the term 'supercharged' to describe a high-bandwith architecture that, in turn, sacrifices the low latency of a traditional setup, why shouldn't they? Luckily, most people don't even understand the benefits of low-latency, low-bandwith system RAM and will just be impressed how ZOMG fast GDDR is.The 'supercharged' part comes from the use of the single unified pool of high-speed memory, making the 8GB of GDDR5 RAM fully and easily addressable by both the CPU and GPU. Meaning that they bypassed some of the physical limitations that PCIe ports have (in actual PC GFXs) in order to make the most out of them. Sony reps also said that the thing will actually have 1 chip with a shared pool of memory, communicating each other with a 256-bit bus capable of archiving 176 GB per second..
My point is not whereas MS and Sony are willing to introduce backwards compatibility, but rather how people here seem to address the issue as they think that kind of emulation is easy to achieve, when is not.
...Now, keep that in mind and then ask yourself: If you are Sony or Microsoft, would you go through such a hassle? Especially if people are willing to buy HD re-releases of games they've played a decade ago? No, you wouldn't.
But, hey, you seem to think that games run straight on the hardware architecture? Please, tell me again why you're the guy to ask how hard it is to get backwards compatiblity out of any of the Xbox generations.
Well, I'm not saying that it will be a monster but if you can get a system that equals an i5 2500k+HD7850 at half the price that the whole set up would cost and have a dependable platform for some years to come, is significant to point out why it would not lag behind as soon as this gen consoles did at around 2011 (by the time the 9800GTX was cheap and affordable).The funny thing is that 'turbocharged' would be more appropriate, because of the inherent, higher latency of GDDR5 compared to DDR3. Which is why computers run DDR3 for RAM. It lacks the bandwith of GDDR5, but that generally isn't much of a problem for a system's RAM as the nature of a CPU will generally be to deliver data sequentially - but in quick succession. GPUs, on the other hand, can more easily deal with higher latency and, in turn, make use of higher bandwith. Which is why I find it funny that everybody is like "ZOMG 8GB GDDR!!!!1one"... There's a reason why PCs are set up the way they are, but, hey, as long as Sony can sell their system by using the term 'supercharged' to describe a high-bandwith architecture that, in turn, sacrifices the low latency of a traditional setup, why shouldn't they? Luckily, most people don't even understand the benefits of low-latency, low-bandwith system RAM and will just be impressed how ZOMG fast GDDR is...
...Before anyone gets any wrong ideas: No, I'm not a fan of the XBOne. I'm a PC gamer first and foremost, so I look down opun both consoles with equal amounts of contempt![]()
Which is precisely what I said, and it goes for all systems. Even if you're trying to emulate a Windows environment on a Mac.My point is not whereas MS and Sony are willing to introduce backwards compatibility, but rather how people here seem to address the issue as they think that kind of emulation is easy to achieve, when is not.
So, your sole argument is that Sony initially tried with the PS3 and therefore lacks backwardscompatibility with the PS4 because it can't be provided? I'd rather say they've learned from MS that backwards compatibility isn't a necessity. But, first and foremost, Sony's been releasing HD remixes of so many games that I'd consider it more likely for Microsoft to actually do BC by this point. Sony's sitting on a gold mine with all their old franchises that people are willing to shell out for again, and they're certainly not going to let that slip away.Also, there hasn't been genuine attempts from MS to make the consoles BC, Sony showed willingness at the first stages of the PS3, but they rapidly backtracked themselves with the high costs this took, MS never tried to do this and broke a standard that both Wii (Game cube capable) and older PS2(PSX capable) set, not acknowledging this is basically overlooking MS attitudes, which are greedy, and sadly set the standard(just as they were attempting with the DRM policies).
So, you think that a high amount of unified GDDR RAM will prevent the system from falling behind in few years? Adding more bandwith to the system's RAM and VRAM isn't exactly future proving it, if it's lacking the overall processing power, no matter the bandwith.Well, I'm not saying that it will be a monster but if you can get a system that equals an i5 2500k+HD7850 at half the price that the whole set up would cost and have a dependable platform for some years to come, is significant to point out why it would not lag behind as soon as this gen consoles did at around 2011 (by the time the 9800GTX was cheap and affordable).
Is a bit of PR but is down to a matter of low latency vs VRAM speed, and the amount of data to be transferred, since the PS4 will use an AMD APU, (which it is very sensitive to memory bandwidth) the thing would need a degree of future proofing by adding as much bandwidth as possible. Is also worth nothing that latency not important in graphics memory(DDR's read or write per cycle vs GDDR's read+write per cycle).
I know it will fall behind (and I think it already did because of the HD 7970 and more powerful cards), however the PS4 is not a computer, nor it will ran 2-3 OSs at the same time and it will not need +500 USD secondary components like a high end motherboard, high speed 1600mhz RAM, a PSU capable of managing that voltage, a special case, etc...So, you think that a high amount of unified GDDR RAM will prevent the system from falling behind in few years? Adding more bandwith to the system's RAM and VRAM isn't exactly future proving it, if it's lacking the overall processing power, no matter the bandwith.
MS doesn't do BC out of greed though
No I haven't, other that the fact that Nintendo and Sony did allowed BC until MS showed that the lack of it could be turned into a profit.So after all that essentially you have no evidence to back up this statement?
I haven't mentioned anything about raw processing power, or being better than the highest end gaming PC, however it is a simple, effective and functional solution for a limited hardware with a price to match.What I'm saying is just that I'm getting real tired of people acting like the "supercharged" architecture is turning the console into something it isn't because they're buying into the stuff Sony tells them - they're buying into it 150%, actually.
Well then please go ahead and show some numbers.And that's ignoring the fact that the higher latency of the GDDR RAM will affect the CPU negatively, even though it isn't (necessarily) affecting the GPU.
So after all that essentially you have no evidence to back up this statement?
I haven't mentioned anything about raw processing power, or being better than the highest end gaming PC, however it is a simple, effective and functional solution for a limited hardware with a price to match.
Advertising it whenever Sony wants is another story, but in summary is a good optimized system given the hardware that it utilizes and how it was modify by Sony engineers to meet the standards they are trying to set.
There's really only one reason not to include backward compatibility in the new consoles. It wouldn't sell one extra console. There's no point in it at all for Sony or Microsoft. It would be convenient for the user but it's not going to make 1 person by a new console.
It's always amazing how people come up with this latency topic, but often can't say what the differences actually are.
Care to explain why as example a GTX 555 with DDR3 isn't the slightest bit better in terms of latency? Or a 6670 with DDR3? Or a 6570? 7450? Older 4600 series? Or even better, let's compare a 7750 DDR3 version vs the 7750 GDDR5 version?Oh, do come on. I'm pretty sure you know the difference between sequential and parallel I/O cycles and the advantages a CPU gets from faster, sequential write to/read from memory timings. I do agree that CAS numbers aren't the be-all, end-all measurement for a console's APU, given that most games will be bottle-necked by the GPU being unable to process fast enough; mostly because of how little overhead there is and how little multi-tasking needs to be done while running a console OS. That doesn't change the fact that using unified GDDR in the system's architecture does have its downsides; these, however, get conveniently overlooked (on purpose, I suppose?) by a lot of guys who seem to be quite fond of Sony. Which, essentially, feeds into the same sort of hype that surrounded the CELL. Make.believe all over again, basically.
But, you wanted some numbers on latency, so here you go:
Link1
Link2
Both Sony and MS are not idiots though, however past records show that Sony tried a BC alternative that didn't involve re-distributing already owned software, something that MS never did.
Why spending time and ressources to emulate an older system and guarantee BC, when you get hardly anything in return?No I haven't, other that the fact that Nintendo and Sony did allowed BC until MS showed that the lack of it could be turned into a profit.
It is a business decision, like Online passes or DRM, and if that's not greedy then ... I don't know what else to say.
I stand corrected, however I could never get Halo 2 to run, even with the patch (in two Xbox's, before they RROD on me, NTSC).False. Again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Xbox_games_compatible_with_Xbox_360
Could you try making statements that don't betray your irrational hatred of MS?
Just as smart as the DRM policies, Right?Greed? Nope, but smart business.
I still don't see how the act of not including backwards compatbility is greedy when they stop production of the old console and don't release a ton of HD re-releases.
If you find a waste of time and ressources and then fix it, then that is smart and helpful for the company.Just as smart as the DRM policies, Right?
Uhh, I guess you misunderstood him.A ton of HD-releases? Where?
Both consoles have HD-releases, with the 360 getting some titles that XBOX users has never had access to before. Also, what on earth makes you think Sony/MS are responsible for the HD releases? I would think that is the choice of the individual puplishers/devs.
Uhh, I guess you misunderstood him.
He said that there is NOT a ton of HD releases and that in his eyes it's not really enough to prove "greed".
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I was also talking about Xbox, not PS2, because it's MS Akira was accusing of being greedy not including BC. So as I say if they stopped production in 2006 and didn't re-sell Xbox games in HD where is the greed? Where were they making money by not including BC?
Just as smart as the DRM policies, Right?
I'm still wondering about how big the differences between the retail and psn plus version of DC will be.Can we get things back on track please, speaking of which my Driveclub pre-order has now been changed to Watchdogs.
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