PlayStation 4 General DiscussionPS4 

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Got any evidence of this? Or is this more the when Sony doesn't do something it's because it's really hard, but when MS doesn't do something it's because of their innate desire to bend the customer over?

The lack of support of BC after two years of the lifecycle is a good sign that they are going to bend you over for something. Not only that, 461 out of 967 games, or rather 51% of the games released on the console, obtained BC support. Some of the games were virtually unplayable even with the patch.

This is a good frame of reference.

That isn't to say that Sony didn't do the same thing because they did.
 
The lack of support of BC after two years of the lifecycle is a good sign that they are going to bend you over for something. Not only that, 461 out of 967 games, or rather 51% of the games released on the console, obtained BC support. Some of the games were virtually unplayable even with the patch.

This is a good frame of reference.

That isn't to say that Sony didn't do the same thing because they did.

That was sort of my point. That it wasn't for lack of wanting on either side, because both PS3 and 360 started out with limited BC. Well, PS3 wasn't limited but they included the PS2 hardware, which is debatably not adding "compatibility" and is simply selling a PS3 with a PS2 duct-taped to the inside of it. :p

Anyway, both companies eventually gave up even trying. Sony because the hardware way was costing them money and they couldn't get decent software emulation working, and MS because they couldn't get decent software emulation working either.

Not for some tinfoil hat plan by either company to ream customers by forcing them to buy old hardware, or sell them on their online streaming services which don't currently exist.

Sony and MS both exist to turn a profit. They could both take the option of including the old hardware in the new console, but they won't because it doesn't make them enough money to bother. They've both apparently decided that software emulation is too hard to invest the resources into making it work. Slightly disappointing, but I can't say I blame either of them.

Anyway, my point was in response to Akira's assertion that Sony doesn't provide BC because it's hard, but MS doesn't provide BC because they hate you and want to make your life miserable. Which is obviously bollocks.

Both companies don't do it because it doesn't make them enough money, anything else is merely good marketing.
 
Anyway, my point was in response to Akira's assertion that Sony doesn't provide BC because it's hard, but MS doesn't provide BC because they hate you and want to make your life miserable. Which is obviously bollocks.

Both companies don't do it because it doesn't make them enough money, anything else is merely good marketing.
Is not bollocks, best example for this would be ... PS2 software emulation, initially the had a physical chip capable of PS2 emulation, however this was way too costly for Sony in the first few years (as you said), therefore they decided to drop it.

Then you got people who jailbroke the thing and could not make the thing emulate PS2 games, even PS2 on a powerful PC is really complicated, only a few games can do this and ... is really complicated for them, the way they were coded was to make the most out of the PS2 architecture, which followed a very complex processing scheme, more specifically this one:

mallinson_02.gif


Meaning that both hackers and Sony needed to emulate a main core, couple of vector units, a graphics synthesizer, etc. All of this using parallel programming to make all the cores work like they do in a physical PS2, this also had to be done in an organized matter as the PS2 had an specific way to process and render graphics:

mallinson_01.gif


For the PS3 this is at least 2 or 3 times worst because all games are fitted to make the most out the CELL architecture, which is even more complex as it uses 6 physical cores to make all the processing tasks, nowadays even developers find it hard to make the most out of the total power of the console (the PS3 is actually more powerful than the Wii and the 360, however it's convoluted architecture and core optimization makes it a total mystery to get everything out of the hardware).


Meanwhile, both Original xbox and the 360 uses a traditional PC-like architecture to process the games, original xbox was so flexible that hacked versions could run linux-debian and they could actually emulate PSX software, the 360 also has a simplified architecture, so it isn't as complex and actually archiveable.

Is that a new technical term or do you work for Sony marketing department. :dopey:

As far as the Supercharged PC architecture goes, it will basically orientate all the system processing capabilities towards a unified architecture to use the most out of the system (unlike the previous PS3 architecture). The 'supercharged' part comes from the use of the single unified pool of high-speed memory, making the 8GB of GDDR5 RAM fully and easily addressable by both the CPU and GPU. Meaning that they bypassed some of the physical limitations that PCIe ports have (in actual PC GFXs) in order to make the most out of them. Sony reps also said that the thing will actually have 1 chip with a shared pool of memory, communicating each other with a 256-bit bus capable of archiving 176 GB per second.

Xbox One still struggles to explain it's architecture and how processing will work with a DDR3 memory running at 68Gb/s at best. Using a ESRAM with a 256-bit processor, working out two memory pools, it's theoretical cap is 204GB/s, but this has been a matter of discussion because tests have shown a cap of 150GB/s, and is unclear where the developer have to use coding to reach the 204 GB/s or if the system is actually capable of it.
 
PS3 backwards compatibility on the new architecture is ... hard.
[...]
MS doesn't do BC out of greed though
Because backwards compatibility is easy for MS? Well, I don't know if they're that far ahead of Sony when it comes to coding and such - if you do, tell us... Thing is, even if the architecture is actually similar (given that the 360 uses a tripple core PPC and a conventional GPU as opposed to a six-core APU, but never mind that), they're still using different APIs.

A Mac and a Windows PC use the exact same hardware, for example. You can, in fact, run both operating systems on the same rig, but try to run a Mac application on windows. It won't cope with the DirectX API and will require Cocoa/Carbon to work. If you want to make backwards compatibility happen on a console, you'll have to emulate the API used by the predecessor of a given console. The funny thing is that consoles are pretty well optimised - to the point that running anything that isn't optimzed for it (such as a game that requires a different API) is actually quite hard to run. Ever tried to emulate a PS2 game on a PC? You need a surprising amount of processing power to do so, because the whole API, the whole environment the game runs in needs to be processed as well as the actual game.

That's the same as running a virtual machine with Windows on a Mac. Emulating the environment the programs runs in will require a huge load of resources, which is something that consoles are barely able to handle. Now, keep that in mind and then ask yourself: If you are Sony or Microsoft, would you go through such a hassle? Especially if people are willing to buy HD re-releases of games they've played a decade ago? No, you wouldn't.

But, hey, you seem to think that games run straight on the hardware architecture? Please, tell me again why you're the guy to ask how hard it is to get backwards compatiblity out of any of the Xbox generations.
The 'supercharged' part comes from the use of the single unified pool of high-speed memory, making the 8GB of GDDR5 RAM fully and easily addressable by both the CPU and GPU. Meaning that they bypassed some of the physical limitations that PCIe ports have (in actual PC GFXs) in order to make the most out of them. Sony reps also said that the thing will actually have 1 chip with a shared pool of memory, communicating each other with a 256-bit bus capable of archiving 176 GB per second..
The funny thing is that 'turbocharged' would be more appropriate, because of the inherent, higher latency of GDDR5 compared to DDR3. Which is why computers run DDR3 for RAM. It lacks the bandwith of GDDR5, but that generally isn't much of a problem for a system's RAM as the nature of a CPU will generally be to deliver data sequentially - but in quick succession. GPUs, on the other hand, can more easily deal with higher latency and, in turn, make use of higher bandwith. Which is why I find it funny that everybody is like "ZOMG 8GB GDDR!!!!1one"... There's a reason why PCs are set up the way they are, but, hey, as long as Sony can sell their system by using the term 'supercharged' to describe a high-bandwith architecture that, in turn, sacrifices the low latency of a traditional setup, why shouldn't they? Luckily, most people don't even understand the benefits of low-latency, low-bandwith system RAM and will just be impressed how ZOMG fast GDDR is.

Given the way you're slinging technical terms, hardware architectures and bandwith speeds around, I would've thought you'd know better than to just parrot the PR some Sony spokesmen dish out. This is advertisment - nobody ever told half thruths or *gasp* lies in an advertisment, right?

Before anyone gets any wrong ideas: No, I'm not a fan of the XBOne. I'm a PC gamer first and foremost, so I look down opun both consoles with equal amounts of contempt :crazy::lol:
 

...Now, keep that in mind and then ask yourself: If you are Sony or Microsoft, would you go through such a hassle? Especially if people are willing to buy HD re-releases of games they've played a decade ago? No, you wouldn't.

But, hey, you seem to think that games run straight on the hardware architecture? Please, tell me again why you're the guy to ask how hard it is to get backwards compatiblity out of any of the Xbox generations.
My point is not whereas MS and Sony are willing to introduce backwards compatibility, but rather how people here seem to address the issue as they think that kind of emulation is easy to achieve, when is not.

Also, there hasn't been genuine attempts from MS to make the consoles BC, Sony showed willingness at the first stages of the PS3, but they rapidly backtracked themselves with the high costs this took, MS never tried to do this and broke a standard that both Wii (Game cube capable) and older PS2(PSX capable) set, not acknowledging this is basically overlooking MS attitudes, which are greedy, and sadly set the standard(just as they were attempting with the DRM policies).

Both Sony and MS are not idiots though, however past records show that Sony tried a BC alternative that didn't involve re-distributing already owned software, something that MS never did.
The funny thing is that 'turbocharged' would be more appropriate, because of the inherent, higher latency of GDDR5 compared to DDR3. Which is why computers run DDR3 for RAM. It lacks the bandwith of GDDR5, but that generally isn't much of a problem for a system's RAM as the nature of a CPU will generally be to deliver data sequentially - but in quick succession. GPUs, on the other hand, can more easily deal with higher latency and, in turn, make use of higher bandwith. Which is why I find it funny that everybody is like "ZOMG 8GB GDDR!!!!1one"... There's a reason why PCs are set up the way they are, but, hey, as long as Sony can sell their system by using the term 'supercharged' to describe a high-bandwith architecture that, in turn, sacrifices the low latency of a traditional setup, why shouldn't they? Luckily, most people don't even understand the benefits of low-latency, low-bandwith system RAM and will just be impressed how ZOMG fast GDDR is...

...Before anyone gets any wrong ideas: No, I'm not a fan of the XBOne. I'm a PC gamer first and foremost, so I look down opun both consoles with equal amounts of contempt :crazy::lol:
Well, I'm not saying that it will be a monster but if you can get a system that equals an i5 2500k+HD7850 at half the price that the whole set up would cost and have a dependable platform for some years to come, is significant to point out why it would not lag behind as soon as this gen consoles did at around 2011 (by the time the 9800GTX was cheap and affordable).

Is a bit of PR but is down to a matter of low latency vs VRAM speed, and the amount of data to be transferred, since the PS4 will use an AMD APU, (which it is very sensitive to memory bandwidth) the thing would need a degree of future proofing by adding as much bandwidth as possible. Is also worth nothing that latency not important in graphics memory(DDR's read or write per cycle vs GDDR's read+write per cycle).
 
My point is not whereas MS and Sony are willing to introduce backwards compatibility, but rather how people here seem to address the issue as they think that kind of emulation is easy to achieve, when is not.
Which is precisely what I said, and it goes for all systems. Even if you're trying to emulate a Windows environment on a Mac.

Also, there hasn't been genuine attempts from MS to make the consoles BC, Sony showed willingness at the first stages of the PS3, but they rapidly backtracked themselves with the high costs this took, MS never tried to do this and broke a standard that both Wii (Game cube capable) and older PS2(PSX capable) set, not acknowledging this is basically overlooking MS attitudes, which are greedy, and sadly set the standard(just as they were attempting with the DRM policies).
So, your sole argument is that Sony initially tried with the PS3 and therefore lacks backwardscompatibility with the PS4 because it can't be provided? I'd rather say they've learned from MS that backwards compatibility isn't a necessity. But, first and foremost, Sony's been releasing HD remixes of so many games that I'd consider it more likely for Microsoft to actually do BC by this point. Sony's sitting on a gold mine with all their old franchises that people are willing to shell out for again, and they're certainly not going to let that slip away.

As such, I'm very confident that neither company even tried to make backwards compatibility happen for the upcoming generation.


Well, I'm not saying that it will be a monster but if you can get a system that equals an i5 2500k+HD7850 at half the price that the whole set up would cost and have a dependable platform for some years to come, is significant to point out why it would not lag behind as soon as this gen consoles did at around 2011 (by the time the 9800GTX was cheap and affordable).

Is a bit of PR but is down to a matter of low latency vs VRAM speed, and the amount of data to be transferred, since the PS4 will use an AMD APU, (which it is very sensitive to memory bandwidth) the thing would need a degree of future proofing by adding as much bandwidth as possible. Is also worth nothing that latency not important in graphics memory(DDR's read or write per cycle vs GDDR's read+write per cycle).
So, you think that a high amount of unified GDDR RAM will prevent the system from falling behind in few years? Adding more bandwith to the system's RAM and VRAM isn't exactly future proving it, if it's lacking the overall processing power, no matter the bandwith.

And that's ignoring the fact that the higher latency of the GDDR RAM will affect the CPU negatively, even though it isn't (necessarily) affecting the GPU.

Well, a simpler way to look at it: You've got a rubber ball with a 10 inch diameter. You want to squeeze it through an 8 inch whole - thats quite tought. Now, if you increase the diameter of the hole to 11 inches, it's going to fit right through. That's what increasing bandwith does. But, if your GPU/CPU combination can only ever produce a 10 inch rubber ball, what good is increasing the bandwith from a 11 inch hole to a 20 inch hole? It's not like the ball could get through any faster. Increasing bandwith is a huge performance gain - if that is what's bottle necking your system. Which is quite hard to believe to be the case, given that we're talking about a very midrange laptop circuit here...
 
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So, you think that a high amount of unified GDDR RAM will prevent the system from falling behind in few years? Adding more bandwith to the system's RAM and VRAM isn't exactly future proving it, if it's lacking the overall processing power, no matter the bandwith.
I know it will fall behind (and I think it already did because of the HD 7970 and more powerful cards), however the PS4 is not a computer, nor it will ran 2-3 OSs at the same time and it will not need +500 USD secondary components like a high end motherboard, high speed 1600mhz RAM, a PSU capable of managing that voltage, a special case, etc...

A simplified architecture also allows developers to develop more easily at more cost effective cycles, PC also has this obstacle to overcome as not everyone is willing to expend money into a 700 USD rig vs a 399 USD system with similar characteristics and capabilities, until the PC costs drop effective to make competitive competitive set-ups at competitive prices I find it hard for PC to match it's capabilities. Also, development has been simplified for the PS4, making easier for developers to make the most out of the system in a shorter time than they did with PS3.

I'm not saying it will be a PC-killer, but is a cheap alternative to a high end PC as it is now.


I realize that I'm dogging the whole GDDR5 memory latency issue, but I honestly don't think that it will affect much in a console, maybe if it were a computing system or something that requires a multiple asking urgencies like a Windows or Linux or Mac OSs, but as it is is just a simple gaming device. I'm aware that consoles nowadays are capable and do multitasking, but for it's primary function I don't it will need to process high amounts of data, or even manage all the functions they are doing nowadays(Social apps are now primary assigned to Tablets, and the other day I saw a Panasonic TV that does EXACTLY what the Xbox One does(voice recognition, internet, PVR HD functions, etc...), which demonstrates that having 1+ OS is unnecessary at this point).
 
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It's a budget sollution, as consoles have always been and it will give you nice results given the hardware, thanks to being highly optimized. I've never argued that consoles are great bang for the buck (at least if you're ignoring the software prices; if you're an avid gamer, you can easily recoup a couple hundred bucks due to games being cheaper on PC and such).

What I'm saying is just that I'm getting real tired of people acting like the "supercharged" architecture is turning the console into something it isn't because they're buying into the stuff Sony tells them - they're buying into it 150%, actually.
 
So after all that essentially you have no evidence to back up this statement?
No I haven't, other that the fact that Nintendo and Sony did allowed BC until MS showed that the lack of it could be turned into a profit.

It is a business decision, like Online passes or DRM, and if that's not greedy then ... I don't know what else to say.
What I'm saying is just that I'm getting real tired of people acting like the "supercharged" architecture is turning the console into something it isn't because they're buying into the stuff Sony tells them - they're buying into it 150%, actually.
I haven't mentioned anything about raw processing power, or being better than the highest end gaming PC, however it is a simple, effective and functional solution for a limited hardware with a price to match.

Advertising it whenever Sony wants is another story, but in summary is a good optimized system given the hardware that it utilizes and how it was modify by Sony engineers to meet the standards they are trying to set.
 
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But that doesn't prove they initially did it for greed, does it? I mean they haven't taken advantage of the lack of it like Sony have, have they? Where have they turned it into a profit, given that there has probably been less than 10 HD re-releases and you can't buy a new Xbox since late 2006?
 
There's really only one reason not to include backward compatibility in the new consoles. It wouldn't sell one extra console. There's no point in it at all for Sony or Microsoft. It would be convenient for the user but it's not going to make 1 person by a new console.
 
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And that's ignoring the fact that the higher latency of the GDDR RAM will affect the CPU negatively, even though it isn't (necessarily) affecting the GPU.
Well then please go ahead and show some numbers.
I'm sure many people would be very interested to see something concrete.



It's always amazing how people come up with this latency topic, but often can't say what the differences actually are.

I've explained it in another thread already, but only looking at CAS values doesn't work dear Luminis.
It simply doesn't.
 
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So after all that essentially you have no evidence to back up this statement?

As if that was ever needed to make Sony look better than Microsoft.
I haven't mentioned anything about raw processing power, or being better than the highest end gaming PC, however it is a simple, effective and functional solution for a limited hardware with a price to match.



Advertising it whenever Sony wants is another story, but in summary is a good optimized system given the hardware that it utilizes and how it was modify by Sony engineers to meet the standards they are trying to set.

And there's a whole lot of difference between believing it to be a good solution for a fixed hardware system with a moderate price tag and reiterating the "supercharged PC architecture" line time and time again. Which, in and off itself, is a) isn't much more than a nice marketing term and b) in and off itself implies superiority over a conventional memory set-up.
There's really only one reason not to include backward compatibility in the new consoles. It wouldn't sell one extra console. There's no point in it at all for Sony or Microsoft. It would be convenient for the user but it's not going to make 1 person by a new console.

I suppose that it's always a business case. Backwards compatibility hasn't been very important, it would seem, for a good while now.
It's always amazing how people come up with this latency topic, but often can't say what the differences actually are.

Oh, do come on. I'm pretty sure you know the difference between sequential and parallel I/O cycles and the advantages a CPU gets from faster, sequential write to/read from memory timings. I do agree that CAS numbers aren't the be-all, end-all measurement for a console's APU, given that most games will be bottle-necked by the GPU being unable to process fast enough; mostly because of how little overhead there is and how little multi-tasking needs to be done while running a console OS. That doesn't change the fact that using unified GDDR in the system's architecture does have its downsides; these, however, get conveniently overlooked (on purpose, I suppose?) by a lot of guys who seem to be quite fond of Sony. Which, essentially, feeds into the same sort of hype that surrounded the CELL. Make.believe all over again, basically.



But, you wanted some numbers on latency, so here you go:

Link1
Link2
 
Oh, do come on. I'm pretty sure you know the difference between sequential and parallel I/O cycles and the advantages a CPU gets from faster, sequential write to/read from memory timings. I do agree that CAS numbers aren't the be-all, end-all measurement for a console's APU, given that most games will be bottle-necked by the GPU being unable to process fast enough; mostly because of how little overhead there is and how little multi-tasking needs to be done while running a console OS. That doesn't change the fact that using unified GDDR in the system's architecture does have its downsides; these, however, get conveniently overlooked (on purpose, I suppose?) by a lot of guys who seem to be quite fond of Sony. Which, essentially, feeds into the same sort of hype that surrounded the CELL. Make.believe all over again, basically.



But, you wanted some numbers on latency, so here you go:

Link1
Link2
Care to explain why as example a GTX 555 with DDR3 isn't the slightest bit better in terms of latency? Or a 6670 with DDR3? Or a 6570? 7450? Older 4600 series? Or even better, let's compare a 7750 DDR3 version vs the 7750 GDDR5 version?

A list of some 4600 series GPU's with DDR3: http://www.sisoftware.eu/rank2011d/...c8ee86bb8ea8d0eddcfa9ffac7f5ccf8dead90a1&l=en
(It's not very comfortable to search for certain GPUs on the site you mentioned, just saying)


I really, I mean I REALLY hope you didn't want to tell me that I could simply compare both links and then see anything relevant. It's not possible, it doesn't work this way. The architectures are way different of how memory is integrated and accessed when looking at CPU and GPU. The latencies of GPU doesn't come from the actual GDDR5 bricks, it's the way they're being used, how the memory controllers work, etc.


Look, you seem to have some knowledge about this topic. So let me just show how the very basic concept of the PS4 RAM integration works:
lvp2.jpg

(Old layout; as of now it has 16 x 512MB GDDR5 memory chips, most likely with effectively 172 GiB/s bandwidth)

Maybe also some of this stuff: http://www.vgleaks.com/more-exclusi...plementation-and-memory-enhancements-details/




If you "use" the GDDR5 for the CPU the same way as normally DDR3 is "used", then you end up with a very small difference.

Here's a GDDR5 datasheet from Hynix (page 133+): http://www.hynix.com/datasheet/pdf/graphics/H5GQ1H24AFR(Rev1.0).pdf
If we go back to CAS and it's effects:

From what I know the Xbox One uses DDR3 @ 2133Mhz with CAS 14 - results in about 13ns

The PS4 GDDR5 runs at 2750Mhz. It would hit 13ns with a CAS of only 18. What do you think how high GDDR5 latencies go?



DDR3 is used in PCs because it's cheaper, more efficient for that certain task, while perhaps being even a very slight edge better in that particular exercise. Doesn't mean it can't be done with GDDR5.

Apart from that, modern CPUs avoid those latencies at 90-95% of the time just by propperly using their chaches.




You didn't compare DDR3 with GDDR5. You compared CPU memory handling with GPU memory handling. Comparison of apples and oranges I like to say.



EDIT:
Btw, Cell let's x86 eat dust in certain applications, but it also has it's dramatic shortcomings. Overall it's great for some things, but definitely not for all things. It had it's major flaws, no question, and it wasn't the time for it to be in a gaming console. But if I'm honest, I mostly blaim the software side, namely the developers and Sony (bad compilers, descriptions, etc). RISC apparently wasn't for everyone...
Although I'd surely like to see an evolution of the Cell in future or a similar concept. X86 is not the holy grail, but as of now it's arguably the best choice.
 
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No I haven't, other that the fact that Nintendo and Sony did allowed BC until MS showed that the lack of it could be turned into a profit.

It is a business decision, like Online passes or DRM, and if that's not greedy then ... I don't know what else to say.
Why spending time and ressources to emulate an older system and guarantee BC, when you get hardly anything in return?

They came to the conclusion that most people don't see BC as a deciding factor to buy a new gen console or not. That's most likely more reason for those companies than the argument with the HD classics.



Greed? Nope, but smart business.
 
False. Again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Xbox_games_compatible_with_Xbox_360

Could you try making statements that don't betray your irrational hatred of MS?
I stand corrected, however I could never get Halo 2 to run, even with the patch (in two Xbox's, before they RROD on me, NTSC).

As far as irrational hatred goes, well ... I'm not the one being ripped off by them, so more power to the people who wants to follows their policies, which brings me to ...
Greed? Nope, but smart business.
Just as smart as the DRM policies, Right?
 
I still don't see how the act of not including backwards compatbility is greedy when they stop production of the old console and don't release a ton of HD re-releases.
 
I still don't see how the act of not including backwards compatbility is greedy when they stop production of the old console and don't release a ton of HD re-releases.

A ton of HD-releases? Where?
Both consoles have HD-releases, with the 360 getting some titles that XBOX users has never had access to before. Also, what on earth makes you think Sony/MS are responsible for the HD releases? I would think that is the choice of the individual puplishers/devs.

- - -

I don't care too much about BC, though it certainly is a plus. I can udnerstand why Sony stopped producing PS3's with BC, because of the cost. Just like I can understand why the PS4 won't be backwards compatible with PS3 games. They run on very different hardware, and as such, it makes complete sense. I don't know enough about the differences between the 360 and the One, but as I understand it, the architecture is the same?

In any case, people requisting backwards compatible consoles, clearly already have games for the previous generation, which would mean they also have the console for it. Which makes me wonder why the hell they don't just use their existing console. And before someone moanes about space, I live in a small one-room apartment. If I can find the room for it, everyone can.

Also, the production of the PS2 didn't stop until the beginning of 2013.
 
Just as smart as the DRM policies, Right?
If you find a waste of time and ressources and then fix it, then that is smart and helpful for the company.

For the company it apparently was the best decision. Maybe not for you, but that doesn't change anything from their perspective.

Did you ever work in a higher position in any company? Or maybe in a quality managment? Anything regarding process improvements? Did you ever have to plan how to use ressources the best way possible? My company as example has an entire division which is mainly checking all sorts of possible improvements regarding cost, effort, quality, environmental friendliness.
(I personally worked 3 months for the manufacturing quality managment in our company; doesn't sound like much, but the experience counts.)


Regarding DRM: It was the execution and readiness to be strict that failed horribly.
A ton of HD-releases? Where?
Both consoles have HD-releases, with the 360 getting some titles that XBOX users has never had access to before. Also, what on earth makes you think Sony/MS are responsible for the HD releases? I would think that is the choice of the individual puplishers/devs.
Uhh, I guess you misunderstood him.

He said that there is NOT a ton of HD releases and that in his eyes it's not really enough to prove "greed".

:)
 
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Uhh, I guess you misunderstood him.

He said that there is NOT a ton of HD releases and that in his eyes it's not really enough to prove "greed".

:)

Yeah, I was having trouble understanding what he meant.
 
I was also talking about Xbox, not PS2, because it's MS Akira was accusing of being greedy not including BC. So as I say if they stopped production in 2006 and didn't re-sell Xbox games in HD where is the greed? Where were they making money by not including BC?
 
I was also talking about Xbox, not PS2, because it's MS Akira was accusing of being greedy not including BC. So as I say if they stopped production in 2006 and didn't re-sell Xbox games in HD where is the greed? Where were they making money by not including BC?

Well, cutting cost can be a result of greed as well? Not that I think the lack of BC is the result of greed.
 
Just as smart as the DRM policies, Right?

Using DRM as a stick to beat MS in comparison to Sony really is not a smart move at all:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal

Sony have used DRM is some insanly underhanded ways; as such is would maybe more accuarte to say that MS have just learnt the lesson that Sony did a while ago in regard to DRM.

Now what I am failing to see here is a discussion about the PS4?

Can we get things back on track please, speaking of which my Driveclub pre-order has now been changed to Watchdogs.

:)
 
Can we get things back on track please, speaking of which my Driveclub pre-order has now been changed to Watchdogs.
:)
I'm still wondering about how big the differences between the retail and psn plus version of DC will be.

As of now I personally don't see any reason to buy Driveclub. I think I'll stick with Watchdogs and Killzone.
 
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