WJHMH
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- El_KaBong_9000
I thought the very same thing.
PlayStation 5 Rumors Latest: Console Reveal Within the Next Six Weeks
- Thread starter GTPNewsWire
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- 8,698
That dedicated 3D audio processor is intriguing. It'll basically free up (half) a CPU core for other stuff, including graphics. At some point, excess GPU horsepower isn't any benefit if you can't throw enough of anything interesting at it to process, so having some CPU power in hand might be a real advantage.
Said audio unit is of particular interest for the next Gran Turismo game, with its "recent" dabbling in synthesis (GT6 was 6 years ago now!) that seems to have stagnated on PS4 - my theory was always that the loss of the SPUs kind of put the brakes on it somewhat.
Once again it seems Sony has made the more interesting system as a whole, at least as far as PC facsimiles go. And once again, time will tell as to whether it works in practice, especially in terms of whether developers can get to grips with it.
Said audio unit is of particular interest for the next Gran Turismo game, with its "recent" dabbling in synthesis (GT6 was 6 years ago now!) that seems to have stagnated on PS4 - my theory was always that the loss of the SPUs kind of put the brakes on it somewhat.
Once again it seems Sony has made the more interesting system as a whole, at least as far as PC facsimiles go. And once again, time will tell as to whether it works in practice, especially in terms of whether developers can get to grips with it.
- 1,680
- Mtl
Except 4 to 6 is a 50% increase, but 10 to 12 is 20% .
Still a good difference but not so big either.
Plus these consoles were late additions that games weren't intended for.
If you look at the std ps4 versus the xbox it's 1.8tf versus 1.2.
Which is about 50% increase, much more than the difference between the ps5 and the Xbox series x.
The multi platform games were definitely a little better on ps4 with 1080p output compared to 900p on many games, and more stable fps.
Then the ps4 exclusives showed a somewhat bigger difference.
So it makes me a little worry for multiplatform games hoping the devs who optimize for the x series will also do it as well for the ps5 because the gpu cpu speeds of the series x might give it some edge for resolution and fps. Although res with new systems are going to be pretty high enough i assume. Fps too i hope.
But this time the differences aren't just in gpu cpu speeds, and the ps5 does have some significant advantages in other components so i hope that will even things out for multi platform games if devs make the effort and for exclusives probably each will have its advantage.
Possibly the ps5 exclusives could have advantages that are not fully clear still , from the ssd and 3d audio processor and other specific designs.
That's my view on it for now at least.
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- 1,037
- New Jersey
- Rektxngle
- iMikeTheKing
When it comes to the discussion of the price between the PS5 and Xbox Series X, I feel like many people are missing out how expensive the custom SSD on the PS5 is. A SSD that fast doesn't exist for consumer PC's and when a SSD that fast releases on PC it will be $500+. So I'm curious on where the PS5 is priced since whatever they saved on a smaller GPU is lost on the SSD.
- 1,748
- vspectra06
- vspectra06
Considering Sony hyped up the spec reveal and knew hundreds of thousands of gamers would be watching, they should have shown some short tech demo comparisons or something, even that old leaked Spider-Man comparison would have sufficed and was super interesting. With the custom silicon they've designed to eliminate bottlenecks for the SSD the theoretically 8-9gb/s speed achieved is insane and frees up a ton of asset resources previously needed to be managed in ram, but that's hard to visualize how large of an effect it will have in rendering on-screen object detail, game design, etc. if you're not a developer. The talk mostly just came across as instant boot up and load time advantages.
This was originally intended for their Game Developer Conference presentation to a bunch of technically-minded folks, who are all excited by the design. But most of the tech talk went over most viewers' heads as to what the design decisions mean and its advantages. Pretty poor marketing from Sony here, especially when we look at the specs sheets and the ps5 is weaker than the Series X in everything but the SSD, and that's pretty much the talk all over social media regarding this reveal. Also there's currently 80k dislikes in that youtube video.
Here's a dev commenting on PS5 specs: https://www.resetera.com/threads/pl...cret-agent-cerny.175780/page-96#post-30024731
ex-Naughty dog tech art director
This was originally intended for their Game Developer Conference presentation to a bunch of technically-minded folks, who are all excited by the design. But most of the tech talk went over most viewers' heads as to what the design decisions mean and its advantages. Pretty poor marketing from Sony here, especially when we look at the specs sheets and the ps5 is weaker than the Series X in everything but the SSD, and that's pretty much the talk all over social media regarding this reveal. Also there's currently 80k dislikes in that youtube video.
Here's a dev commenting on PS5 specs: https://www.resetera.com/threads/pl...cret-agent-cerny.175780/page-96#post-30024731
"What John is saying sounds pretty right to me! I don't want to down play GPU power, but I promise everybody that you will be absolutely blown away by visuals on both consoles. However, the SSDs are the big difference when coming into this gen. We're not talking about "load times" in the classic sense. That's an antiquated way of thinking about data coming from your hard drive. For the last 10+ years we've been streaming worlds on the fly. The problem is that our assets are absolutely huge now, as are our draw distances, and our hard drives can't keep up. It means that as you move through the world we're trying to detect and even predict what assets need loading. Tons of constraints get put into place due to this streaming speed.
An ultra fast drive like the one in PS5 means you could be load in the highest level LOD asset for your models way further than you could before and make worlds any way you want without worry of it streaming in fast enough. The PS5 drive is so fast I imagine you could load up entire neighborhoods in a city with all of their maps at super high resolution in a blink of an eye. It's exciting. People don't realize that this will also affect visuals in a big way. If we can stream in bigger worlds and stream in the highest detail texture maps available, it will just look so much better.
I think the Xbox drive is also good! The PS5 drive is just "dream level" architecture though."
An ultra fast drive like the one in PS5 means you could be load in the highest level LOD asset for your models way further than you could before and make worlds any way you want without worry of it streaming in fast enough. The PS5 drive is so fast I imagine you could load up entire neighborhoods in a city with all of their maps at super high resolution in a blink of an eye. It's exciting. People don't realize that this will also affect visuals in a big way. If we can stream in bigger worlds and stream in the highest detail texture maps available, it will just look so much better.
I think the Xbox drive is also good! The PS5 drive is just "dream level" architecture though."
ex-Naughty dog tech art director
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- 1,078
- Near Nürburgring
- DanPrez
I think the SSD will push the price to at least 499. At this point, with this kind of tech, everything below that would be insane. That being said, given the power and capabilities of this consoles, 499 is still a bargain.
However, im sure the external SSD for Xbox will be at least another 100 bucks and way more on PS5.
PS5 10.3TF v Series X 12TF is a +17% increase.
PS4 Pro 4.2TF vs One X 6TF is a +44% increase.
So really it is very little like the Pro vs the One X. And lets be honest there was not much in it came to enhanced titles running on both platforms - certainly from the viewing distance of your average sofa dwelling gamer. I don't think anyone is expecting a PS5 Pro console any time soon but rumours are very strong that MS will introduce a lower spec version of the Series X - and there is some logic to that. 1080P TVs absolutely dominate the market so why not have a console that can run all the latest games but at 1080p instead of 4K?
The next gen consoles are so close to each other it will present little challenge for cross platform developers - aside from managing Sony's interesting dynamic allocation of CPU and GPU speeds to manage power and heat. I think the only real differences we will notice at some point in future is the better raytracing grunt of the Series X and the better storage speed and audio on the PS5.
Cross platform games are going to look remarkably similar on both consoles. The key question now is how much does that +17% from Microsoft add to the purchase price in comparison to PS5.
It's going to be a great generation as long as covid-19 does not mess everything up.
The loading speed thing will matter if it allows Sony exclusives to do something with game design that cannot be achieved on slower storage. We will have to wait and see but I don't think Sony are spending that much of the system's budget on storage to simply have a game load in 3 secs rather than 6.
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- 7,928
- Wreckage, Turn 1
- PrecisionXCIV
- 491
At the 1000 ft level, both these silicon filled boxes are the same. And so is their software for that matter. Even for gamers down at the user level the differences are slight in practice for the majority of people except for the exclusive game choices each console offers and maybe the backward compatibility which Microsoft seems to be much more committed to when you look at older generations than the current one.
For tech heads and hardcore gamers, Microsoft has packed more silicon into their black plastic box. It will produce better frame rates/resolution etc. Sony is taking a lower cost route but dialing up frequency and io to try to make up the difference at a lower hardware cost. All that makes perfect sense when you look at the financial position of both companies. But 90% of games played on the two boxes will esentially look and feel the exact same to 90% of gamers using them.
I want to see PD show us what an in game car will look like on PS5 and tell us they are going to finally attempt to do realistic AI now that they have a more than capable cpu to work with.
For tech heads and hardcore gamers, Microsoft has packed more silicon into their black plastic box. It will produce better frame rates/resolution etc. Sony is taking a lower cost route but dialing up frequency and io to try to make up the difference at a lower hardware cost. All that makes perfect sense when you look at the financial position of both companies. But 90% of games played on the two boxes will esentially look and feel the exact same to 90% of gamers using them.
I want to see PD show us what an in game car will look like on PS5 and tell us they are going to finally attempt to do realistic AI now that they have a more than capable cpu to work with.
zzz_pt
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- Porto living in Hamburg
- zzz_pt
XBSX more powerful. PS5 faster.
I'm more excited, now that I watched Digital Foundry's video about Cerny's presentation, then what I was while watching it.
The capabilities of the SSD combined with the fast RAM will probably allow first parties to design worlds no other dev will be able to attempt. Only first party studios will be able to explore the faster hardware of the PS5, since 3rd parties have to develop and design for multiple platforms and that means bottlenecks in world building, as Cerny illustrated yesterday (with a level from an old game).
The 3D audio also sounds exciting, pun intended. Apparently the tempest 3D has the equivalent hardware/CU's as PS4's Jaguar CPU. That's crazy.
Hopefully the next GT7 takes full advantage of that and leaves behind some of the poor/average car sounds and effects.
Can't wait to see the box and the launch line up!
I'm more excited, now that I watched Digital Foundry's video about Cerny's presentation, then what I was while watching it.
The capabilities of the SSD combined with the fast RAM will probably allow first parties to design worlds no other dev will be able to attempt. Only first party studios will be able to explore the faster hardware of the PS5, since 3rd parties have to develop and design for multiple platforms and that means bottlenecks in world building, as Cerny illustrated yesterday (with a level from an old game).
The 3D audio also sounds exciting, pun intended. Apparently the tempest 3D has the equivalent hardware/CU's as PS4's Jaguar CPU. That's crazy.
Hopefully the next GT7 takes full advantage of that and leaves behind some of the poor/average car sounds and effects.
Can't wait to see the box and the launch line up!
- 8,698
I think it unlikely that the Zen2 units in the Xbox don't also use "boost". It's part of the architecture and makes perfect sense from a thermal management point of view, especially given the fluctuating nature of CPU loads in games. More performance and less heat, yes.
Aren't the FLOPS counts mostly for the GPUs anyway? CPUs do much more than just floating point ops. Floating point performance usually comes mostly from vector units in CPUS nowadays, whereas GPU work is mostly on floating point data in vector form - hence their design and rating.
In any case, Zen2 can do 32 FLOPS per cycle per core (about 800-950 GFLOPS depending on the clock). Factor in clock speed and system design differences and the two new consoles are pretty much similar in terms of CPU performance.
With proper thermal management (case temps) the GPUs should not need to downclock, and the load they see is more consistent anyway so it's not a good idea to bank on fluctuations to keep heat at bay.
Aren't the FLOPS counts mostly for the GPUs anyway? CPUs do much more than just floating point ops. Floating point performance usually comes mostly from vector units in CPUS nowadays, whereas GPU work is mostly on floating point data in vector form - hence their design and rating.
In any case, Zen2 can do 32 FLOPS per cycle per core (about 800-950 GFLOPS depending on the clock). Factor in clock speed and system design differences and the two new consoles are pretty much similar in terms of CPU performance.
With proper thermal management (case temps) the GPUs should not need to downclock, and the load they see is more consistent anyway so it's not a good idea to bank on fluctuations to keep heat at bay.
Tired Tyres
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- Tired_Tyres
- Tired Tyres
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- Mtl
The ray tracing is integrated in AMD's gpu on both consoles and is part of their rdna2 gpu design.
I haven't seen info on if it's a percentage of it's processing reserved for this or just the whole gpu can be selected to do RT as much as each dev chooses?
And if it's different on each console, seems pretty much the same but might be some customizations from each of Sony's and Ms's approach, i haven't seen much concrete info on this?
I haven't seen info on if it's a percentage of it's processing reserved for this or just the whole gpu can be selected to do RT as much as each dev chooses?
And if it's different on each console, seems pretty much the same but might be some customizations from each of Sony's and Ms's approach, i haven't seen much concrete info on this?
zzz_pt
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- Porto living in Hamburg
- zzz_pt
Yes, eventhough the language was way to technical for me. It seems like Sony is building a machine to push forward the gaming industry and what devs can do. PCs are built to play existing stuff at ultra settings imo and they're not tailored (not as much) to game development as consoles are.
Now I want to know about the software innovations too. But I don't think Sony will talk or reveal more of the PS5 until after Ghost of Tsushima comes out. Hopefully I'm wrong.
- 1,089
I cannot believe people disappointed with the specs 
What GTS has achieved on PS4 and other amazing games we have this gen I think next gen is going to be awesome. PS5 is a huge upgrade. PS4Pro was basically PS4 games with high res and few affects. PS5 is a new gen so programmer can do a lot more compared to PS4pro. I do not think gfx is an issue. The most impressive part has to be SSD. They talked a lot about audio as well. The only thing I am disappointed is the ram. They could have had more ram and faster bandwidth. There was a rumor that it could be 512gb/sec. I think the console will be less than 499$ 
Hopefully Sony has put some effort in engineering the console. They talked about advanced cooling and more silent console. I do not want a PC or Xbox design 
What GTS has achieved on PS4 and other amazing games we have this gen I think next gen is going to be awesome. PS5 is a huge upgrade. PS4Pro was basically PS4 games with high res and few affects. PS5 is a new gen so programmer can do a lot more compared to PS4pro. I do not think gfx is an issue. The most impressive part has to be SSD. They talked a lot about audio as well. The only thing I am disappointed is the ram. They could have had more ram and faster bandwidth. There was a rumor that it could be 512gb/sec. I think the console will be less than 499$ Hopefully Sony has put some effort in engineering the console. They talked about advanced cooling and more silent console. I do not want a PC or Xbox design 
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Stage looks set for a PS5 Pro in a couple years. 
- 8,698
It will be a dedicated RT unit. Ray tracing is not like fragment shading in terms of its computational demands, you can't just feed it a stream of triangles, pixels and lookups and smash the numbers together. It needs branching "trees" of data to cross-reference at different points multiple times (a lot like collision detection).
You can run a ray tracer on streaming processors, but it's not as fast because it has to keep stopping to go back to look at previous data. Where rasterisation is typically done in a handful of passes, ray tracing requires as many passes as rays in the worst case. GPU hardware is just not geared up for that, especially in the way they move data around.
- 1,680
- Mtl
So it's an additional processor and not using any of the gpu then for Rt? Or are they using some of the cus of the gpu and specialized them for Rt?
Or it's a part of the cpu cores specialized to do this maybe since general processors would be more compatible for branching code?
For the 3d sound processor they say they are using an amd gpu cu that Sony specialized for it, and similar to an old ps3 gpu or cpu unit.
Do we know the specs of this for each console?
Sony or Ms did mention that their RT would have used 13TF if using regular gpu cpu for this.
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- 1,903
- valencia
- Donnced
Mmmm,
Xbox series X seems a bit more powerful,PS5....a bit less,and I hope that the CPU wouldn't be the bottleneck again ...also thinking that in 2 years the PS5pro will hit the shelves.
Still not interested in next generation consoles...will be the first time I don't gonna buy one from launch.
I prefer to wait and see or if the consoles move towards hardware upgrades...I sure will pass and move towards PC...more freedom for accessories, mods, streaming,free online in most games and Lower prices
Xbox series X seems a bit more powerful,PS5....a bit less,and I hope that the CPU wouldn't be the bottleneck again ...also thinking that in 2 years the PS5pro will hit the shelves.
Still not interested in next generation consoles...will be the first time I don't gonna buy one from launch.
I prefer to wait and see or if the consoles move towards hardware upgrades...I sure will pass and move towards PC...more freedom for accessories, mods, streaming,free online in most games and Lower prices
- 8,698
I don't know where AMD sourced the RT unit from. It wouldn't be beyond them to make their own, but they've some catching up to do on the software side of things (Vulkan?).
Didn't know that about the audio processor, but that makes sense because it's DSP - i.e. data streams. Lots of cool GPGPU audio going on in the wild already for this very reason.
Here's some pictures from a thorough breakdown of nVidia's Turing arch:
https://devblogs.nvidia.com/nvidia-turing-architecture-in-depth/
That's not to say that AMD is doing the same thing, but it gives you an idea of how it needs to be handled differently, at least.
I'm sure enterprising developers will be able to use the RT core for whatever they want (e.g. physics, visibility, audio - assuming the API is open enough), and likewise GPGPU is definitely a thing now, so there's no reason you couldn't use the GPU for non-graphics things. Whether it's worth the effort is dependent on the individual project.
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