Points system to be replaced?

[Vaxen]

"If you ain't first, you're last!"



Apologies for any sensibilities offended by a Nascar reference in an F1 forum.

 

[Metar]

Not only that, but if the other guy gets 5 wins and 12 second places, under the current system this gives him 156 points.

Where as the guy who wins 6 races but finishes no other would get only 60 points - yet still wins the championship under Bernie's crazy-ass 2009 meddle system!

No, it doesn't reward for consistency at all. 👎

He would also finish behind the drivers who picked up those other wins, even if they were just a single win per driver.

Give me one non-financial reason that a small team would back this?

Come to Don Montezemolo, he'll give you reasons.

 

[Tired Tyres]

"All the teams back it."

Give me one non-financial reason that a small team would back this?

There isn't one that I can think of!

This is actually the point system using in A1 Gp isn't it?

If it is then it points to an obvious problem.

All the cars in A1 GP are identical therefore superior set up and drivers makes all the difference.

F1 has a wide spread of performance between cars and therefore it cannot be an acceptable rule change.

 

[Metar]

The way things are going with F1, we'll soon have identical cars as well:

The FIA tender for a spec engine included the gearbox, which had to have "ten suspension-mounting points" - which would've fitted spec suspensions. With Max pushing for a chassis-freeze, spec engines and suspensions, and ever tighter bodywork regulations, it seems we won't have much variety come 2013.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Allright, that does it! If (when) this system is introduced, it (in my pessimistic view) points to that idiocy engine development proposed by Max, to get a more level playingfield. F1 is going to be a onemake series at the very latest by 2011!
I hereby declare F1 dead and flat on it´s back. Time to change the series name as Formula One will be hypocrisy very soon.

Dang! I was looking forward to ´09, but now it´s totally ruined!
Luckily 2008 was a good season, so I can remember it as such.

The 2009 Formula One Drivers' Championship will be decided by a medals system instead of points.


F1 boss Bernie Ecclestone announced on Wednesday that race winners will from next year be awarded medals with the Championship settled according to who has the highest number.


Gold, silver and bronze medals would be given to the top three finishers and the driver who won most races would be crowned World Champion.


Ecclestone says the system should be approved by motorsport world governing body, the FIA, before the end of year.


"It's going to happen," Ecclestone is quoted by Associated Press. "All the teams are happy. The reason this happens is that I get fed up with people talking about no overtaking.


"The reason there's no overtaking is nothing to do with the circuit or the people involved, it's to do with the drivers not needing to overtake.


"If you are in the lead and I'm second, I'm not going to take a chance and risk falling off the road or doing something silly to get two more points. If I need to do it to win a gold medal, because the most medals win the World Championship, I'm going to do that. I will overtake you."


Ferrari's Felipe Massa would have won this year's title under the proposed system as he won one more race than 2008 Champion Lewis Hamilton.


"This year, we saw on a number of occasions Lewis not overtaking Massa for that reason," Ecclestone added. "If he'd driven for me, tried it and made a mistake, I would have complained. It's just not on that someone can win the World Championship without winning a race."

Link to story

 

[Mr. Boy]

Here's a quote about Ecclestone from an F1 encyclopedia I have that might be of interest:

Stories, apocryphal or not, abound about him. He is said to have walked into the Brabham factory one day and discovered that a new wall-phone had been installed, It was not correctly aligned, so he tore it down, and, after dashing it to the floor, snarled, "Get that put up properly, or I'll close the whole place down." As shocked staff picked up the debris, he reportedly added, "And don't think that I wont, because you're not dealing with a rational man!"

That last sentence says it all, really.

 

[Roo]

There isn't one that I can think of!

This is actually the point system using in A1 Gp isn't it?

If it is then it points to an obvious problem.

All the cars in A1 GP are identical therefore superior set up and drivers makes all the difference.

F1 has a wide spread of performance between cars and therefore it cannot be an acceptable rule change.

The A1GP points system is 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 in the sprint race, 15-12-10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 in the feature race. You get a point for fastest lap in both the sprint and the feature.

 

[Only_in_f1]

Ok so a driver can win 6 races and then not finish another race yet win the title?

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Ok so a driver can win 6 races and then not finish another race yet win the title?

Yes, if the driver behind has 5 wins or less


I wonder if Bernie decided on the points system before or after his wife decided to divorce him.

 

[mu22stang]

This looks promising...at least for '09.

medals "no go"

Ecclestone apparently said he had team support before actually meeting with teams. Actual discussions with teams should be taking place the beginning of this week.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

More on the "No-go for medals";

Bernie Ecclestone's plans to introduce medals into Formula One looks likely to be shot down by both the FIA and the teams, according to the British press.


Ecclestone recently revealed that he would like to see gold, silver and bronze medals awarded instead of points as he believes this would encourage attacking racing.


"I am fed up with people talking about there being no overtaking. The reason there is no overtaking is nothing to do with the circuits or the cars - it's because the drivers don't need to overtake," the F1 supremo recently said.


"If you are in the lead and I'm second, I'm not going to take a chance and risk falling off the road or doing something silly to get two more points.


"If I need to do it to win a gold medal, because the most medals win the World Championship, I'm going to do that. I will overtake you."


However, the idea looks set to be shot down as according to the Telegraph Sport, not only has no formal proposal been presented to the FIA but 'several teams also understood to have misgivings.'


Meanwhile Professor Steffen Huck, who is the Head of Economics at UCL and an expert in the understanding of incentives, reckons Ecclestone's plan is flawed.


"The medal system only incentivises the top," he told the Telegraph. "But there are other undesirable consequences as well.


"First, teams and drivers would have to take riskier strategies - causing more crashes, and causing more mechanical and engine failures which will drive up the costs. We have already seen this incentive effect operating in the reverse direction when the new points system was introduced in 2003.


"Secondly, the Championship could easily be decided after just two thirds of the season and in 2004 it would have been over by the halfway mark."

 

[Stevisiov]

Thank god, some good news in F1.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

"I am fed up with people talking about there being no overtaking. The reason there is no overtaking is nothing to do with the circuits or the cars - it's because the drivers don't need to overtake," the F1 supremo recently said.

Wrong

I think it's time for a divorce between F1 and Mr. Ecclestone.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Wrong

I think it's time for a divorce between F1 and Mr. Ecclestone.

It really is. The old "gentlemen" needs to step down now, or else they may ruin the sport forever. Mosley has already said he will retire next year, but we all remember what happend the last time he said that...
Who´ll fill his shoes? My personal tip, for good or bad, is a certain Jean Todt...

Bernie seems frankly to be losing it completely, and seems to need some real persuasion to take a step back. He´s harder to replace though. An FOM board of directors? I think the best would be if the Teams themselves could take over though.

Sorry for the little OT. Had to get it out.

 

[Ardius]

It really is. The old "gentlemen" needs to step down now, or else they may ruin the sport forever. Mosley has already said he will retire next year, but we all remember what happend the last time he said that...
Who´ll fill his shoes? My personal tip, for good or bad, is a certain Jean Todt...

Bernie seems frankly to be losing it completely, and seems to need some real persuasion to take a step back. He´s harder to replace though. An FOM board of directors? I think the best would be if the Teams themselves could take over though.

Sorry for the little OT. Had to get it out.

What does Ecclestone really do though? Doesn't he just organise the race circuits and TV licenses? Wouldn't it better to have a board of directors sort that out or some kind of general team of people who have some idea what F1 is about and what the fans (and teams) want? I'm not so sure putting the teams in charge of this is a good idea, though a representative of the teams might be a better idea.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

I honestly don´t believe a board of directors with little or no interest in racing, but a really keen eye on economics is the way to go. Team representatives would be much better IMO.
IIRC, Bernie owns the TV-licenses, and basically he is the race-promotor.

 

[Ardius]

What I'm questioning is that its not really the team's area of expertise. I agree they should have a larger say in the organisation of the series, however, they shouldn't decide everything - the competitors shouldn't run the championship because there would be no consistencey. I'm not saying it should be run by a bunch of business numpteys who have no idea what they are doing or care little for the sport, I'm saying it needs to be run by people who are not connected to the teams or manufacturers in any way at all.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It really is. The old "gentlemen" needs to step down now, or else they may ruin the sport forever ... Bernie seems frankly to be losing it completely, and seems to need some real persuasion to take a step back.

At least Ecclestone is trying to make the sport more exciting by promoting overtaking. No-one else seems to be doing anyhting on that front ...

 

[peterjford]

At least Ecclestone is trying to make the sport more exciting by promoting overtaking. No-one else seems to be doing anyhting on that front ...

Isn't there a group working on this? I think its even called something like the "Improving Overtaking Advisory Group" or something like that. It has representatives (engineers) from several teams, if not all. They (or someone like them) are responsible for the new aero rules.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

At least Ecclestone is trying to make the sport more exciting by promoting overtaking. No-one else seems to be doing anyhting on that front ...

And why do think the new aerorules were concieved? And Bernie had little or nothing to do with that...
Besides, what he proposes is ridiculous at best, and even if it would actually promote overtaking, it would also promote all teams that are not top three to nothingness. The backmarkers would certainly leave, since they would have absolutely nothing to fight for. A medalsystem would kill off F1 IMO, but maybe that is what Mr. E wants?
-If I can´t have it, noone shall! Muahahaha!

 

[Ardius]

At least Ecclestone is trying to make the sport more exciting by promoting overtaking. No-one else seems to be doing anyhting on that front ...

No, Ecclestone is just doing what he always does - being a complete nut-case who has opinions people rarely agree with.
As has been mentioned, there has already been a "Overtaking Working Group" (OWG) been setup consisting of techinical members of the top teams:
http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews/2008/10/8471.html

This is what should have been done years ago rather than let people like Ecclestone dictate everything. However, I am still of the opinion that the teams should not control everything either.

 

[Stevisiov]

At least Ecclestone is trying to make the sport more exciting by promoting overtaking. No-one else seems to be doing anyhting on that front ...

I am not sure which sentence I disagree with more...

At least he's trying? Burnie's plans were a terrible idea, trying to improve the sport by ruining other area's isn't helping even if it is trying. As the head of f1* you would expect he is trying to improve area's but you also expect him not to make a mess of the sport.

No-one is trying to do anything about overtaking? Surely you understand the biggest reason behind the new aero regs.

 

[Touring Mars]

Yes, if Bernie's concern was the lack of overtaking, why is he seeking to make the battles for positions 2-8 meaningless?

 

[Ardius]

Although off topic again, its in the same vein of Ecclestone ruining F1:
http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=44690

Now Germany is looking to lose its race(s) along with France, Canada, America and China. Not to mention the constant threats to the British and Australian rounds.
I think I'll agree now that F1 is moving away from its fanbase and towards new fans and countries - which makes no business sense at all, surely it would make more sense to keep your core fanbase?

 

[Mt. Lynx]

I think more venues should raise their voices aswell. The current state of the economy really do demand more caution with money, and if Bernie simply is greedy, more tracks should say no. Maybe then something good could come to pass.
I mean, both Bernie and the FIA talks about saving money, but it seems that is only the teams concerns, and not the entire F1 circus. And that also just points to Mr. E´s greed, since the equation most likely says "less for the teams, more for Mr. E"

Ok, I just found this. Is it the taxpayers who pay for the F1 races? In that case, many more venues may be in jeopardy, since most taxpayers are holding on to their wallets pretty fiercly right now.

Also look through the news topics on that site, since there are a few spots on the medalsystem aswell.

 

[mu22stang]

Is it the taxpayers who pay for the F1 races?

On a good portion of the circuits the venues are partially or completely funded by the government. However, countries like U.S.A. would never in a million years get gov't funding for an F1 venue, so they must be privately sponsored. This is one of the big reasons Indy is gone and some are soon to follow - nobody can afford Mr.E's outrageous venue pricetags.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

No-one is trying to do anything about overtaking? Surely you understand the biggest reason behind the new aero regs.

Yes, but Bernie's idea is to make the championship fight draw out as long as possible an provide a spectacle. Maybe I'm playing Devil's Advocate here - those who know me well enough know that I frequently do - but something like this would never have worked during the Schumacher years because he'd win really early in the championship. This medals system is designed so that even when a driver has a nearly-unbeatable lead, it still goes down to the wire. It's not a perfect suggestion, but it is a suggestion. If we find that it doesn't work or is deeply unpopular after Brazil next year, they might change it back, but until hen we should at least see how it goes.

 

[livemusic]

No we shouldn't.

 

[wfooshee]

^^^^

Correct. Absolutely not.

I (and others) still ask: how can a championship that came down to the last turn be considered uncompetitive. And two consecutive 1-point margins in the championship. And nearly the whole year 4 guys within about 10 or 15 points of each other.

How does this need fixing??!??!?

 

[Ardius]

Yes, but Bernie's idea is to make the championship fight draw out as long as possible an provide a spectacle.

No it isn't - his idea is to force drivers to try and battle for wins more than settle for points. Which as has been pointed out would make it even less interesting and less of a "last corner championship-making occurence" spectacle.

If you can play Devil's Advocate:
Why does a system that works just fine need changing? Why did this medal system even need suggesting?

This medals system is designed so that even when a driver has a nearly-unbeatable lead, it still goes down to the wire.

You mean like during the Schumacher years? Oh wait...

but something like this would never have worked during the Schumacher years because he'd win really early in the championship.

Anyway, its irrelevant, with the medal system it would still never be as close as a down-to-the-last-corner points based championship.