Points system to be replaced?

[Hun200kmh]

Here's the comparison. It's in the link Famine has posted, but I didn't see it at the time:

TITLES THAT WOULD HAVE CHANGED

1958: Actual champion: Mike Hawthorne
Most wins champion: Stirling Moss

1964: Actual champion: John Surtees
Most wins champion: Jim Clark

1967: Actual champion: Denny Hulme
Most wins champion: Jim Clark

1977: Actual champion: Niki Lauda
Most wins champion: Mario Andretti

1979: Actual champion: Jody Scheckter
Most wins champion: Alan Jones

1981: Actual champion: Nelson Piquet
Most wins champion: Alain Prost

1982: Actual champion: Keke Rosberg
Most wins champion: Didier Pironi

1983: Actual champion: Nelson Piquet
Most wins champion: Alain Prost

1984: Actual champion: Niki Lauda
Most wins champion: Alain Prost

1986: Actual champion: Alain Prost
Most wins champion: Nigel Mansell

1987: Actual champion: Nelson Piquet
Most wins champion: Nigel Mansell

1989: Actual champion: Ayrton Senna
Most wins champion: Alain Prost

2008: Actual champion: Lewis Hamilton
Most wins champion: Felipe Massa

 

[Ardius]

Not that it will mean much but a poll for us to voice some of our opinions at least:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/poll/2009/mar/17/drivers-title-decided-by-victories

I thought there were surveys asking about this before and the general response was "NO!". Who in the right mind thought this was a good idea?

This is bad for the sport, the teams, the fans, the sponsors...hell, its bad for everybody. Just when F1 needed stability....
Hopefully the backlash over this is large enough that they change their minds quickish. I certainly reckon FOTA are going to be drifting further and further away now....a breakaway series is even more likely to happen with rubbish like this being passed.

For what its worth, a petition too:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/ca...ction-criteria-for-f1-world-championship-2009

Naturally, FOTA "concerned":
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73754

 

[Metar]

I'm wordless - once because the much-hated system is actually going ahead, and once more because every point I wanted to raise was already raised. Well done, GTPlaneteers.


My excitement ahead of the first race was spiraling - I was downright ecstatic yesterday. But now, I just feel it's completely, utterly pointless - literally. It's a system that rewards pace at the expense of unreliability, and clashes directly with the cost-cutting measures. But first and foremost, on the most basic of levels, it turns the complex strategies in F1 into a single goal: To win, and nothing else. With the points, the system was easily explainable, yet had hidden depths that provided us with the last few hyper-exciting championships. And now what?

 

[Studentdriver]

And now what?

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the teams decide to all do the big-ball walk, show up at Melbourne, and refuse to run their cars.

 

[Ardius]

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the teams decide to all do the big-ball walk, show up at Melbourne, and refuse to run their cars.

I hope they do that. FOTA has become very united now and they seem to have a better idea of where the sport should go than either the FIA or the FOM. Its ironic that after Mosley demanding teams should work together more often to cut costs and agree on things, etc, that now the teams have agreed on cost cutting rules and he's basically just flat ignored them.

 

[Sureboss]

Here's the comparison. It's in the link Famine has posted, but I didn't see it at the time:

TITLES THAT WOULD HAVE CHANGED

1958: Actual champion: Mike Hawthorne
Most wins champion: Stirling Moss

1964: Actual champion: John Surtees
Most wins champion: Jim Clark

1967: Actual champion: Denny Hulme
Most wins champion: Jim Clark

1977: Actual champion: Niki Lauda
Most wins champion: Mario Andretti

1979: Actual champion: Jody Scheckter
Most wins champion: Alan Jones

1981: Actual champion: Nelson Piquet
Most wins champion: Alain Prost

1982: Actual champion: Keke Rosberg
Most wins champion: Didier Pironi

1983: Actual champion: Nelson Piquet
Most wins champion: Alain Prost

1984: Actual champion: Niki Lauda
Most wins champion: Alain Prost

1986: Actual champion: Alain Prost
Most wins champion: Nigel Mansell

1987: Actual champion: Nelson Piquet
Most wins champion: Nigel Mansell

1989: Actual champion: Ayrton Senna
Most wins champion: Alain Prost

2008: Actual champion: Lewis Hamilton
Most wins champion: Felipe Massa

All that shows that between 77 & 89 racing was much tighter than it was between 1990 & 2007.

 

[Touring Mars]

Bernie seems to have an obsession with coming first... no wonder Slavica dumped him.

 

[Tired Tyres]

All that shows that between 77 & 89 racing was much tighter than it was between 1990 & 2007.

Probably because up until 1990 drivers had to drop results. 1985 to 1990 they could only count their best 11 results out of 16 Grand Prix. This naturally closed up the points between them.

 

[Fastas]

I support the idea of making wins count more, but this is not the way to do it.

I'd much prefer going back to the old points scheme (10-6-4-3-2-1) and maybe add something for pole/fastest lap.

I don't know why so many people think that giving points for pole/fastest lap would degrade F1.

I'm not entirely sure but, I think the old points reckoning used to give 9 points for a win.

The rules were changed to promote and add interest and more importantly attract extra revenue for the lower teams on the grid by boosting the seasons tally of points.

I had/have no objections to this change and I'm sure the benefit was huge to the teams involved.

What I do not understand is why this system can't be amended again. The FIA(?) reduced the margin of points between 1st and 2nd in the last revision so, why not just increase it i.e. give 11 or 12 points for 1st place?! simple

I have two major issues with the rule changes for the 2009 season, the first one is for another thread, the second;

Mclaren's car for this season is not up to speed. So, why not sit out the first eight races, save on the travel expenses etc and improve the car, turn up and win the last nine races with the improved car take the championship.

Brawn GP aren't too please though, they won the first eight races but came second in the remaining nine and so loose the title/s. Who deserves the title? who won the most points?

 

[Ardius]

Correct, it was 9-6-4-3-2-1, then in 1991 it was changed to 10-6-4-3-2-1.

It was changed to the current system because of the domination of Schumacher, to let drivers lower down the field close the gap a bit by not rewarding wins so much.

I think the FOTA proposal sounded best, with an increase to 1st, 2nd and 3rd while still increasing the worth of a win without completely ruining the championship early on:
12-9-7-5-4-3-2-1

The title should go to the most consistent team/driver, end of. Sure, this system will spread the skills of drivers perhaps, with teams opting for weaker 2nd drivers and team orders making a more prominent return but will that really make things closer? I doubt it, it will actually make it worse for slower or smaller teams, for example, with this layout of drivers, BMW Sauber wouldn't have had such a chance last year.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Bernie seems to have an obsession with coming first... no wonder Slavica dumped him.

 

[Metar]

Indeed, the FOTA proposition sounds like the most reasonable one - it gives an extra bonus for a win, and differentiates the podium positions from the regular points a bit more.

And Fastas - your scenarios are exactly what teams might come up with in order to win under these rules. On top of that - they could use their 8 allocated engines to blitz the first 8 races, and then happily take a grid-penalty in the coming races, having almost certainly won the championship.


@TM: That was just..

 

[Roo]

I like the idea behind the championship = wins idea, but with it flying in the face of so much currently in F1 I can't see it helping improve the show.

I'm not entirely sure but, I think the old points reckoning used to give 9 points for a win.

Originally (in the 50s) it was 8, 6, 4, 3, 2 and 1 for fastest lap.

Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_points for a full rundown of all the various permitations in points over the years.

Mclaren's car for this season is not up to speed. So, why not sit out the first eight races, save on the travel expenses etc and improve the car, turn up and win the last nine races with the improved car take the championship.

With no testing allowed they'd be better off turning up to the races and using them as test sessions.

 

[Fastas]

Correct, it was 9-6-4-3-2-1, then in 1991 it was changed to 10-6-4-3-2-1.

It was changed to the current system because of the domination of Schumacher, to let drivers lower down the field close the gap a bit by not rewarding wins so much.

I think the FOTA proposal sounded best, with an increase to 1st, 2nd and 3rd while still increasing the worth of a win without completely ruining the championship early on:
12-9-7-5-4-3-2-1

The title should go to the most consistent team/driver, end of. Sure, this system will spread the skills of drivers perhaps, with teams opting for weaker 2nd drivers and team orders making a more prominent return but will that really make things closer? I doubt it, it will actually make it worse for slower or smaller teams, for example, with this layout of drivers, BMW Sauber wouldn't have had such a chance last year.

Oops, showing my age (only 32), have been avidly watching F1 as long as I can remember - early eighties, that's when it was best imo

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

I'm confused ... read through to page 6 but still... what's the current state ?
They won't pull that "medal" **** , do they? Please tell me they won't ...

 

[Ardius]

I'm confused ... read through to page 6 but still... what's the current state ?
They won't pull that "medal" **** , do they? Please tell me they won't ...

They are changing the points system so that the champion is determined by the most wins. They still use a points system, its just the top two drivers will be racing for wins regardless of points.
So it basically is the medal system without the medals.

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

They are changing the points system so that the champion is determined by the most wins. They still use a points system, its just the top two drivers will be racing for wins regardless of points.
So it basically is the medal system without the medals.

Ah, still sounds a bit crazy to me, but at least we'll see fights for positions in mid/backfield, huh?

 

[Ardius]

Ah, still sounds a bit crazy to me, but at least we'll see fights for positions in mid/backfield, huh?

Maybe, but if a team has satisfied the necessary wins, it won't bother racing any more. And there will be no point in say a Ferrari who is consistent but can't manage wins in even trying to fight for positions other than 1st place.

With just the points system, it rewarded consistencey and actually finishing all of the races, whereas this one will reward those who manage to get the most wins first and basically screws everyone else over.
The points become slightly redundant now, especially to lower teams, sure they didn't have chances of winning the championship either way, but there was still the possibility, now there is literally no chance.

 

[Metar]

It'll complete the absolute minimum in order to still get TV money - they'll have to show up at every race. They could, however, show up with a car not conforming to the regulations (say, a local Hertz Rent-A-Car vehicle) and claim that they tried but were disqualified...

 

[Ardius]

The best we are looking at for them changing it is probably by next year if a driver this year actually dominates early on....I hope anyway. Of course the best way is to boycott the series by not watching it, but thats not going to happen, at least not in significant numbers.
I hope FOTA do something serious enough to make them reconsider because otherwise F1 is really going to go downhill. Although a political war might not be the best idea, I don't know which I'd prefer to see, a breakaway series or F1 with an awful system of determining champions.

 

[livemusic]

Why did they have to ruin it? We were all so anxious the new season was coming up in a couple of weeks but this just took the fun out of it...

I hope they revert this before Melbourne, or adopt FOTA's suggestion.

 

[Ardius]

Brundle thinks that the drivers won't approach it too differently:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7949215.stm

I agree with him to an extent, we don't know how this will affect the championship completely because it will change the aims of the drivers each race, however, it wasn't needed and has been brought in too late into the season, especially because such rules can and probably do have an effect on the design approach of even the cars.

 

[Only_in_f1]

Bet you we'll see Massa lose the champ but 1 less race win but win on points

 

[Roo]

Maybe, but if a team has satisfied the necessary wins, it won't bother racing any more. And there will be no point in say a Ferrari who is consistent but can't manage wins in even trying to fight for positions other than 1st place.

The Constructor's championship (which admittedly no-one expect the constructors themselves care about) remains unaffected by the changes - you can still only win that by scoring the most points.

 

[Ardius]

The Constructor's championship (which admittedly no-one expect the constructors themselves care about) remains unaffected by the changes - you can still only win that by scoring the most points.

Yeah, but when it comes down to it, its all about what the driver's motivations are when he's racing, or at least thats what these rules are "supposed" to change according to Bernie.
And I don't see them being very motivated to defend 2nd or attempt to reach it if they know they can't catch 1st. Sure, the team will want the points, but some drivers I can imagine will lose a lot of motivation if they know there is little point in attempting to score more points beyond helping their team.

Although, like Brundle said, the drivers probably won't be too affected by it, we will have to see.

 

[(1ES)]

I always wondered where Frankistiens brain came from, and now I know...

 

[Roo]

Essentially the Championship will now be decided on what we currently call "Countback" with the points system used as a tie-breaker. Which means we get to see just how phenomenally unfair it is, as opposed to working it all out...

Driver A - 4 wins, 4 seconds, 1 third, 1 seventh = 80 points
Driver B - 4 wins, 4 seconds, 1 fourth, 1 fifth = 79 points
Driver C - 5 wins, 12 DNFs = 50 points & champion!

Thinking about it a bit more, how is this scenario any different to the 1988 season? Then, Prost scored 105 points to Senna's 94, but because only the best 11 scores counted, Senna won the championship (90 points vs 87). Basically, the similarity is that whilst one driver got more points, the other won because of the rules at the time. (Incidentally, Senna scored 8 wins to Prost's 7, so would've won the title under this year's most-wins regulations too.)

 

[Ardius]

Thinking about it a bit more, how is this scenario any different to the 1988 season? Then, Prost scored 105 points to Senna's 94, but because only the best 11 scores counted, Senna won the championship (90 points vs 87). Basically, the similarity is that whilst one driver got more points, the other won because of the rules at the time. (Incidentally, Senna scored 8 wins to Prost's 7, so would've won the title under this year's most-wins regulations too.)

Well, I thought those regulations were also considered fairly stupid as well.....hence why they were abandoned for 1990 onwards?

 

[Lofasz]

Here's what a buddy in another forum suggested might happen this season:

How to win in '09

Build your engine to last exactly ONE race.

Turn it up to 11

(Race #1)Run away with the race and collect your gold medal.

(Race #2) Blow up your engine in the qualifying, replace it and start 10th, retire with 'gremlins' on lap 1

(Race #3) - turn it up to 11, run away with the race, collect medal.....

rinse and repeat.....

I truly believe that Max and the FIA have once again come up with a lame brain idea. Just like the rule that didn't allow pitting during the safety car (thankfully dropped for 2009), this is a clear example of the FIA lacking the foresight, when making big stupid changes like this. They think they're solving one "problem", while creating even more.

I like that the cars have changed this season, and even like that they've lowered the cost of doing business. They just don't know when to quit though.

The World Champion has been determined by points, since 1950. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Lofasz, I'm fairly certain the FIA have seen This Is Spinal Tap. Besides, don't engines have to last for three races this year, or is that starting next season? If it's this year, going for hard burn one race and then blowing it in time for the next would be pretty pointless because you'd have to do two races with troubles ... even if you roast your engine, you still take the penalty for changing it, don't you?