POLL: drafting in race YES or NO?

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I came into this topic only to say that I only came into this topic to see how big the blow out was on the poll?

Did I just fail??
 
I think what GT5 got wrong is the distance at which you can draft behind, and the lack of low pressure from behind a car. The effect rapidly disintegrates just 20-50 meters back at 200 mph. In fact on the Discovery Channel they did a test and found that following an 18 wheeler at a gap of 3 seconds slows you down and increases fuel consumption. However following RIGHT BEHIND the truck with 2 inches to spare reduced the consumpion by like 3 or 4 times.


They got the basic concept, and I'm pretty certain you can hit 230 mph with the 270 hp Fiat on a desert road, drafting, although the Fiat would have to have a fully adjustable transmission.

Its possible to gain huge amounts of speed drafting as I demonstrated. Part of the problem in GT5 is that the front car doesnt pick up speed due to the low pressure behind it. That along with the turns at Daytona are what make it challenging to pass in real Nascar.

Its obvious they included Nascars at the last minute, and gave them no restrictor plates at Daytona. But thats not a big deal, Rusty Wallace has run un-restricted 225 mph laps at Talledega, and he did a couple of times I think.
 
I think what GT5 got wrong is the distance at which you can draft behind, and the lack of low pressure from behind a car. The effect rapidly disintegrates just 20-50 meters back at 200 mph. In fact on the Discovery Channel they did a test and found that following an 18 wheeler at a gap of 3 seconds slows you down and increases fuel consumption. However following RIGHT BEHIND the truck with 2 inches to spare reduced the consumpion by like 3 or 4 times.

Semi aero is quite different from car aero... the shape of the wake coming off the big bluff back end, as well as the huge turbulence this causes is different from drafting another motorcar at the same distance.
 
Semi aero is quite different from car aero... the shape of the wake coming off the big bluff back end, as well as the huge turbulence this causes is different from drafting another motorcar at the same distance.

Thats true but the general concept of not getting a draft past 1 second or so gap is also true. That would end alot of the slingshot, "rubber banding" in the game on technical circuits with a long straight.
 
No, that is only true when you're drafting a semi at legal speeds.

When you're drafting one at, say, 150 mph... given you could get a semi to go that fast, things are vastly different.

I've drafted vehicles at speeds of well over 100 mph, and with street cars, with their "clean" aerodynamics, it's pretty noticeable from about several car-lengths back. With F1s, which are about as aerodynamic as a barn door and go twice as fast, the draft effect is enormous. Especially if you're driving another F1 car that's about as aerodynamic as a barn door.

One of the reasons for the changing aero rules is not simply to help drafting, but to keep that barn-door turbulence down so the car following you doesn't lose all its grip come the corner.

That's one reason you don't see many draft-overtakes in F1 because it's damn dangerous. You sit in the draft through a corner and you lose all front down force and you're basically riding a rollerskate off into the weeds.

Or, worse, you could suffer snap-oversteer as your bargeboard front-wing comes out of the draft and into clean air... as the Red Bulls seemed so fond of doing last season.

With NASCARs... well... a lot of others have already pointed out both arguments pro and anti for NASCAR.

One of the reasons for the perceived extra strength of the draft in GT5 is the speeds of the race cars involved. I drive mostly street cars because race cars bore me, and I've never felt a strong draft at the typical speeds a street car can do around a track... it's not until you're going well over 140 mph that it becomes dramatic.

Yes, the game has "boost" in Arcade / Online mode, but that can be turned off. In the higher halls in A-Spec, I've not seen the draft to be problematic.
 
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another classic "I would have won if it were'nt for the draft". you do k ow that if an actual racing sim is too much for ya they do have a dummy version of racing called "mario cart". you should try it. May be the drafting kind your in "obvious need of"
 
another classic "I would have won if it were'nt for the draft". you do k ow that if an actual racing sim is too much for ya they do have a dummy version of racing called "mario cart". you should try it. May be the drafting kind your in "obvious need of"




Troll? 💡 Facts is facts, sonny.
 
another classic "I would have won if it were'nt for the draft". you do k ow that if an actual racing sim is too much for ya they do have a dummy version of racing called "mario cart". you should try it. May be the drafting kind your in "obvious need of"

There's enough irony and baloney in this post to fill a vegan butcher shop.
 
AntiDraft technique by Hamilton


a quick tip for those who are losing races by 2nd place drafting car:
get lost of him and get a pace between you and him before the straight. Or just defend your position on a straight not giving him any chance. It's implemented in a real racing, why don't do it in a game?

 
Drafting is exaggerated in GT5. Period.
Especially because it doesn't seem to make a difference in which car you drive. In real life the drafting effect in karts is very very minimal.
 
The drafting is to strong in GT5. It could do with a 60% reduction ideally.
 
When he pulls out from behind the Corvette, he does it immediately after the first chicane. He's only doing 100 mph right there, and he's coming out of a corner. This is not drafting, he simply had a higher exit speed coming out of the chicane. There wasn't even time to develop enough of a draft to pull him along for the pass. What we saw there was a drag race, not a car pulling out from behind another in a draft.

Wow....

Let me make this perfectly clear.
If you are behind another car, you have entered its wake, thus you are drafting by definition, regardless of your speed or theirs.
 
C'mon, really? He was in the wake for a second or two -- that's not 'drafting'.

If he was drafting, he'd come out of the corner, and sit in the draft while their speed climbed, because the draft becomes MUCH more prevalent as the speeds increase.

He wasn't using the draft at all right there, he just happened to be in the Corvette's wake momentarily.
 
It doesn't matter how long or at what speed you are going. It has been established that runners and cyclists 'draft'. They are not going anywhere near 100mph, so speed does not dictate if a draft is happening or not, but instead dictates the effects/gains of the draft.

So, if 1-2 seconds gives you no advantage and isnt drafting as you said, then you must wholeheartedly agree that GT5's drafting is complete crap seeing as how 1-2 seconds in GT5 will net you like an additional 10 mph.
 
It doesn't matter how long or at what speed you are going. It has been established that runners and cyclists 'draft'. They are not going anywhere near 100mph, so speed does not dictate if a draft is happening or not, but instead dictates the effects/gains of the draft.

So, if 1-2 seconds gives you no advantage and isnt drafting as you said, then you must wholeheartedly agree that GT5's drafting is complete crap seeing as how 1-2 seconds in GT5 will net you like an additional 10 mph.
You're dreaming.

Of course it matters how long. You use the draft to get momentum by accelerating behind the car in front of you. If you don't have time to accelerate within the wake, you get essentially no benefit.

Answer this:
Car A is moving a steady 200 mph down a straight, with Car B in its draft. Car B is also moving at a steady 200 mph. Car B pulls out of the draft to pass. Will the draft benefit him, and allow him to pass?
 
You're dreaming.

Of course it matters how long. You use the draft to get momentum by accelerating behind the car in front of you. If you don't have time to accelerate within the wake, you get essentially no benefit.

Answer this:
Car A is moving a steady 200 mph down a straight, with Car B in its draft. Car B is also moving at a steady 200 mph. Car B pulls out of the draft to pass. Will the draft benefit him, and allow him to pass?
A draft is a draft is a draft, regardless of speed or length of time. :rolleyes:

Time and speed only effect the benefit/gains levels of the draft.

I never said the Aston got some super awesome gain off the draft, just that to be in ones wake is to draft, which is a flipping fact bro. What don't you get about that?

Let me help you....
If an object falls to the ground and is only falling for 1-2 seconds, the acceleration of it may seem insignificant, but that doesn't mean gravitational acceleration didn't take place.

To answer your question:
If car B has enough available power in his car when exiting the draft, then yes.

In the case of NASCAR and restrictor plate races, then more often than not, no. Car B would need the help of a Car C in order to fully clear Car A.
 
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A draft is a draft is a draft, regardless of speed or length of time. :rolleyes:

Time and speed only effect the benefit/gains levels of the draft.

I never said the Aston got some super awesome gain off the draft, just that to be in ones wake is to draft, which is a flipping fact bro. What don't you get about that?

Let me help you....
If an object falls to the ground and is only falling for 1-2 seconds, the acceleration of it may seem insignificant, but that doesn't mean gravitational acceleration didn't take place.

To answer your question:
If car B has enough available power in his car when exiting the draft, then yes.

In the case of NASCAR and restrictor plate races, then more often than not, no. Car B would need the help of a Car C in order to fully clear Car A.
I said before that it's a draft -- but that doesn't mean he was drafting. He was in the draft (momentarily), but didn't even attempt to use it to gain position.

If Car B and Car A are moving at the same steady speed, and Car B pulls out to pass, Car B will not even pull in front of Car A's rear bumper. The draft benefits the passer by giving him an opportunity to accelerate during the period of time within the draft, when air resistance isn't using all of the motor's power. If Car B doesn't take that time to accelerate while in the draft, he will be unable to pass. He'll just get in the wind at 200 mph and sit there.

This is why NASCARs have trouble passing -- it has nothing to do with power. Even cars making 100 horsepower can pass on superspeedways. NASCARs can't pass because the current aero package closes the drafting 'bubble' behind the lead car very quickly, not allowing the second car a large enough gap to get a run on the first car. This is the part incorrectly modeled by PD. The draft is every bit as extreme as they modeled, but they didn't differentiate between the effects of various cars. They modeled the entire thing like vintage NASCARs punching a huge hole in the air that extends 300 yards behind the lead car. A car in that draft can easily get 20-30 mph as a result, because they have lots of time to accelerate while they're experiencing lower air resistance. Cars like modern NASCARs and F1 cars are designed to aerodynamically close that hole behind the car, so the second car doesn't get a good run on the first car. The second car only has a moment to accelerate during the period of lower wind resistance.

The Aston did not have any opportunity to accelerate within the draft. Look at the video again.
 
I said before that it's a draft -- but that doesn't mean he was drafting. He was in the draft (momentarily), but didn't even attempt to use it to gain position.

If Car B and Car A are moving at the same steady speed, and Car B pulls out to pass, Car B will not even pull in front of Car A's rear bumper. The draft benefits the passer by giving him an opportunity to accelerate during the period of time within the draft, when air resistance isn't using all of the motor's power. If Car B doesn't take that time to accelerate while in the draft, he will be unable to pass. He'll just get in the wind at 200 mph and sit there.

This is why NASCARs have trouble passing -- it has nothing to do with power. Even cars making 100 horsepower can pass on superspeedways. NASCARs can't pass because the current aero package closes the drafting 'bubble' behind the lead car very quickly, not allowing the second car a large enough gap to get a run on the first car. This is the part incorrectly modeled by PD. The draft is every bit as extreme as they modeled, but they didn't differentiate between the effects of various cars. They modeled the entire thing like vintage NASCARs punching a huge hole in the air that extends 300 yards behind the lead car. A car in that draft can easily get 20-30 mph as a result, because they have lots of time to accelerate while they're experiencing lower air resistance. Cars like modern NASCARs and F1 cars are designed to aerodynamically close that hole behind the car, so the second car doesn't get a good run on the first car. The second car only has a moment to accelerate during the period of lower wind resistance.

The Aston did not have any opportunity to accelerate within the draft. Look at the video again.

It has everything to do with power available when exiting the draft. The car behind is not using full power to obtain the exact same speed as the car in which is it following due to less front drag.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drafting_(aerodynamics)#Stock_car_racing
Since restrictor plates were first used as a safety device, their effect has changed the nature of drafting. Vehicles no longer have sufficient horsepower or throttle response to maintain their drafting speeds upon exiting the draft; they can pull out and squeeze ahead but lack the response to clear the car being passed. This negates the slingshot maneuver. As a result, passing is often the result of cooperation between two or more drivers or is achieved by sucking air off the side of the car being passed, a technique called side-drafting.

Whoever wrote that seems to agree with my two answers. Since you are apparently more knowledgeable, why don't you correct it?
 
It has everything to do with power available when exiting the draft. The car behind is not using full power to obtain the exact same speed as the car in which is it following due to less front drag.

Whoever wrote that seems to agree with my two answers. Since you are apparently more knowledgeable, why don't you correct it?
I already corrected it. See my previous post (and try to understand it).

You're correct, Car 2 isn't using full power while in the draft. But he will be unable to accelerate once he exits the draft, so he MUST accelerate while in the draft. The acceleration he needs to pass the lead car has to come while he's in the draft -- outside the draft, he can't accelerate, he'll only lose speed.

Because the low pressure area behind Car A is relatively small in modern NASCARs, this limits Car B's ability to accelerate within the draft.

Anybody who says that it's a lack of power is dead wrong, because in NASCAR, Car A and Car B always had roughly equivalent power. Yet in the 60's and 70's, cars with less power than 2010 restrictor-plate NASCARs were passing each other constantly -- because they could get a run on the lead car in the draft. During the 60's and 70's they had between 450 and 600 horsepower, yet they could pass in a draft all day long. There was clearly no 'lack of horsepower'.

This thing about lack of power preventing passing has been bogus from day 1. Whoever wrote the wiki for that doesn't know any better. To pass, Car B must accelerate. It's not enough to be going the same speed while using less power. Car B can't pull out of the draft at the same speed as Car A, then accelerate -- because then he's experiencing the same wind resistance as Car A now, and is therefore equally unable to pick up speed just the way Car A can't go any faster. He has to apply that available extra power at a time when that power isn't eaten up by wind resistance -- and that has to happen while in the draft. If the draft from the lead car only extends 25 feet behind, and Car B is 16 feet long, then Car B has to get all the acceleration it needs in less than 25 feet, and that's not much room to accelerate. If the draft, however, extends 250 feet behind Car A, then Car B can get the acceleration it needs before pulling out into the wind. And since acceleration is a function of time squared, the time spent accelerating while in the draft is ultra-important.

I'll say it again, the part that's modeled incorrectly is that PD made the assumption that every car punches an equal hole in the air at a given speed. The hole is essentially correct for cars like vintage NASCARs, because in the game we see the effect for hundreds of yards behind the lead car at 200 mph. But it doesn't apply the same way behind all cars, and modern NASCARs and F1 cars are two good examples of cars that actively close the air behind the car as it passes.
 
I already corrected it. See my previous post (and try to understand it).

You're correct, Car 2 isn't using full power while in the draft. But he will be unable to accelerate once he exits the draft, so he MUST accelerate while in the draft. The acceleration he needs to pass the lead car has to come while he's in the draft -- outside the draft, he can't accelerate, he'll only lose speed.

Because the low pressure area behind Car A is relatively small in modern NASCARs, this limits Car B's ability to accelerate within the draft.

Anybody who says that it's a lack of power is dead wrong, because in NASCAR, Car A and Car B always had roughly equivalent power. Yet in the 60's and 70's, cars with less power than 2010 restrictor-plate NASCARs were passing each other constantly -- because they could get a run on the lead car in the draft. During the 60's and 70's they had between 450 and 600 horsepower, yet they could pass in a draft all day long. There was clearly no 'lack of horsepower'.

This thing about lack of power preventing passing has been bogus from day 1. Whoever wrote the wiki for that doesn't know any better. To pass, Car B must accelerate. It's not enough to be going the same speed while using less power. Car B can't pull out of the draft at the same speed as Car A, then accelerate -- because then he's experiencing the same wind resistance as Car A now, and is therefore equally unable to pick up speed just the way Car A can't go any faster. He has to apply that available extra power at a time when that power isn't eaten up by wind resistance -- and that has to happen while in the draft. If the draft from the lead car only extends 25 feet behind, and Car B is 16 feet long, then Car B has to get all the acceleration it needs in less than 25 feet, and that's not much room to accelerate. If the draft, however, extends 250 feet behind Car A, then Car B can get the acceleration it needs before pulling out into the wind. And since acceleration is a function of time squared, the time spent accelerating while in the draft is ultra-important.

I'll say it again, the part that's modeled incorrectly is that PD made the assumption that every car punches an equal hole in the air at a given speed. The hole is essentially correct for cars like vintage NASCARs, because in the game we see the effect for hundreds of yards behind the lead car at 200 mph. But it doesn't apply the same way behind all cars, and modern NASCARs and F1 cars are two good examples of cars that actively close the air behind the car as it passes.

What you are saying is true for modern NASCAR, but what I said is true of other motor sports like the Le Mans Series. Thus, why I gave you two answers to your question.

A modern NASCAR or Indy Car (which your example is correct about) for example are all so very similar that the slight differences between them normally negates 'power available' being different between them. Indy cars all use the exact same engine for example. In both of those series the bodies have also become so similar so that it effectively attempts to create a 'level playing field' and a focus on driving skill.

The Le Mans series is not like that. Yes they have restrictions, but you are talking about motors that are all different as manufactures have more freedom than in NASCAR/Indy. Not only do they have all kinds of motors, but each cars shape and because of that aerodynamics is completely different. Tell me, does a LMGT1 Vette, Ford GT, Murcielago or Aston look damn near identical? What about the Porsche, BMW, F430 of the LMGT2 class? Again, these are all completely different cars with different shapes, not exactly the same air resistance then is it? You know, since cars of different shapes have different aerodynamics. In a series such as this, 'power available' when exiting a draft is true.

Since you mention them, Formula One it's all about which manufacture can build a better car within the specifications, even with the cars being very similar. Don't you remember when the Red F was introducing a new car all the time and F1 had to put a stop to it? F1 is a money sport period, which they have actively been trying to correct in recent time.

The following video was posted earlier in this thread. Car B was not coming up on Car A with enough space to exactly accelerate in the draft as you say. So why, was Car B able to exit the draft and begin passing?

Because in you are clearly ignoring one important factor, car setup. In a series like this, a small differfence can really alter the wind resistance characteristic between two cars and simply can't be ignored.

If power available is untrue, explain cyclists and runners when using draft?

I was speaking of drafting as a whole (this started over a Le Mans video, am I wrong?), you seemed to be only speaking of drafting in super restricted series. Therefore, I don't believe we were seeing eye-to-eye from the get go.
 
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I was speaking of drafting as a whole (this started over a Le Mans video, am I wrong?), you seemed to be only speaking of drafting in super restricted series. Therefore, I don't believe we were seeing eye-to-eye from the get go.
I'm also speaking to drafting as a whole, but I'll contend that the video shows/proves absolutely nothing. There is simply no need for the AM to pass the Vette 40 minutes into a 24 hour race, and there is a great deal of gamesmanship going on. The single most important thing for drivers to do in the first twelve hours is to keep the car in one piece. There is nothing to be gained by passing, or dicing with another car. Zero. So there's no telling what is happening for sure in that video. Passing is done very cautiously in the early going, and if anything, drivers are trying to find out what the other teams have on tap.

It's also quite clear that if the AM wanted to use the draft to pass, he wasn't in the draft long enough to gain any real benefit. So again, there is nothing there that's truly indicative of what the draft can do.

I'm supposed to be talking with an old NASCAR driver in the coming weeks, but I don't have a time set up with him yet. He ran a Superbird in the '70 Daytona 500, and I'm sure he can give additional insight.
 
Yes; its part of racing.

And I just figured out what IRL means 💡

In Real Life !

And I thought it was Indy Racing League :dopey:

Now its the IZOD series, eh :sly:

Who knows what that stands for: IndyZOtherDrivers?
 
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