poll for those outside north and central america

[1X83Z]

I've been lucky enough to mostly have full-time AWD models, but I always put AWD on in non-full-time models in any inclement weather. I'm from Guam and didn't actually live in a snowy climate until I went to college in Philadelphia at age 17. I'm the first to admit I had no idea how to drive in snow (I overcompensated when I left graduate school and made my first vehicle purchase - a Land Rover Discovery. At the time I lived in Texas. ). I've learned significantly, but AWD is still a huge help to me, and if equipped there's no point not using it, even if you're the best snow driver in the world.

By the way, I've needed SUVs in two places I've lived due to climate but I can say honestly that I've never towed anything, ever.

 

[neanderthal]

im with you on the rangie being needlessly expensive. its still a helluva nice luxury car that happens to be a worthwhile 4X4. it also has that special something about it that the taureg doesnt quite have, albeit whatever that special something is, it isnt really worth the premium over the vw. i like its style, its stance, its presence. it has a very aristocratic air about it, that even the rappers havent quite sullied. dont like the white/ ceram interior, but thats about all i dont like about it. i think its detainling sets it apart.

the camry is despicable. but as an appliance it really cant be faulted much. and thats about as good praise you will hear from me. i prefer the 6, altima, accord in that order, though the altima is a little rough around the edges and the six is a little bit cozy. the accord is much like the camry but looks nicer and more put together.

the durango is hideous. thats why i prefer the surburban. i think they tried too hard with the current crop of dodge trucks and basically caricatured what was a nice design IMO. i liked the simpler lines and more proportionate grille of the previous bodystyles of all the DC truck models, including the new GC. its something i cant get over. its almost as though, once they saw the big grille was popular, they decided they didnt need to style anything really, just put a big fat grille on it.

the forenza has a deep standard spec, matches well with most compacts in terms of dimensions, but has a bigger engine. that should translate to more power and in a small car, better fuel economy. it doesnt. it has a slight torque advantage vs others id consider. the focus loses because of numerous recalls. the cobalt gets an eww face from me. GM really needs to try a lot harder. the koreans are great contenders, the japanese kinda blah. cept fo the 3 which is just about right. too well sorted for the great unwashed. they dont deserve such a nice car.

 

[neanderthal]

ski crush
one of hte reasons the SUV has been going the way of the dodo is the truck like ride inherent in body on frame trucks. toyota recognised it early, made the RAV4, scored a hit and kept sending up more batters. others joined the game and now its the fastest growing segment, coz they ride better.


what akes you think people arent gong to buy "trucks" that ride better? especially f they dont really need the truck aspect of it.

in no way am i condoning the ridgeline. i think its ugly as sin, especially with the chrome accents in the grille. but dont knock it......... the sheep have a tendency to buy vehicles whose success should be limited. witness the success of the camry. we enthusiasts just have to hope the manufacturers throw us a bone now and then.


like the wrangler rubicon. no need to go parts shopping. its pretty much all there.

 

[1X83Z]

im with you on the rangie being needlessly expensive. its still a helluva nice luxury car that happens to be a worthwhile 4X4. it also has that special something about it that the taureg doesnt quite have, albeit whatever that special something is, it isnt really worth the premium over the vw. i like its style, its stance, its presence. it has a very aristocratic air about it, that even the rappers havent quite sullied. dont like the white/ ceram interior, but thats about all i dont like about it. i think its detainling sets it apart.

I actually agree on most of this - hell, I've owned one and came very close to getting a new one a few days ago - but as any sort of practical buy it can be bested. $74300 on the base model, and $89300 on the supercharged one! And the new Sport isn't much better, sadly.

the camry is despicable. but as an appliance it really cant be faulted much. and thats about as good praise you will hear from me. i prefer the 6, altima, accord in that order, though the altima is a little rough around the edges and the six is a little bit cozy. the accord is much like the camry but looks nicer and more put together.

I think the Camry is a poor buy - they've just realized they can charge more and they do. Options are expensive, nothing's standard, and V6 power rivals the Americans rather than the Japanese. Malibu, Galant, Accord, Altima - get the hell away from Camry! (however I continue to praise the SE V6 Camry, one of my favorite-looking cars)

the durango is hideous. thats why i prefer the surburban. i think they tried too hard with the current crop of dodge trucks and basically caricatured what was a nice design IMO. i liked the simpler lines and more proportionate grille of the previous bodystyles of all the DC truck models, including the new GC. its something i cant get over. its almost as though, once they saw the big grille was popular, they decided they didnt need to style anything really, just put a big fat grille on it.

I agree in large part - the old Ram was great-looking - though I think the new Dakota looks very nice. Still, of course, I don't consider looks to be a factor at all in my decision so it's easy to hand this to Durango.

the forenza has a deep standard spec, matches well with most compacts in terms of dimensions, but has a bigger engine. that should translate to more power and in a small car, better fuel economy. it doesnt. it has a slight torque advantage vs others id consider. the focus loses because of numerous recalls. the cobalt gets an eww face from me. GM really needs to try a lot harder. the koreans are great contenders, the japanese kinda blah. cept fo the 3 which is just about right. too well sorted for the great unwashed. they dont deserve such a nice car.

I don't think it does have a deep standard spec on the price point. Side airbags helps greatly, but lots of stuff that should be available isn't (6-CD) and ABS is still optional. Plus, fuel economy is horrible which should be offset by more horsepower but isn't. I disagree on the Focus - I don't like it, but because it doesn't have enough stuff standard not because of the recalls. Any car that popular will have recalls; I think they're mostly past that anyway. Mazda 3 is an awful car. Options prices are almost comical.

My question is why the hell are there four small Suzuki wagons? This segment has about nine cars in it, four of which are the Aerio, Forenza, Reno, and Grand Vitara. (at the end of the day, let's be honest, the Grand Vitara is a wagon. At least the 2WD model. It should be off the market)

Speaking of Suzuki, did you know the XL-7 is my pick for 'worst SUV on the market'? It loses out on 'worst SUV ever' to the Dodge Raider, though.

 

[Joey D]

Wow that is bad, looks like a rebaged Mitsu Pajero or something. Which it more then likely because of the partnership.

 

[neanderthal]

you would sidestep the X90 and pick the grand vitara as second best? erm.. i mean worst? it seemed like you knew what you were talking about till then.

 

[a6m5]

The Honda Ridgeline is a joke. It is a Miura truck. I don't think it even HAS low--and it doesn't matter. Anyone who knows what low is really for will NEVER buy one of those things. It is a poser vehicle. The 5 full size trucks (with their mid and compact little brothers) will be fighting it out until the end of time. But they have been producing trucks since a) the automobile was invented, or b) at the latest since the 70s. I will never have any more respect for someone driving a ridgline than I do for someone driving a Subaru Baja. Will they sell--of course. Even here, I've seen 1 or 2. Honda being"rugged" is like James Bond going cow tipping. WAKE UP! IT'S JUST A BAD DREAM!

in no way am i condoning the ridgeline. i think its ugly as sin, especially with the chrome accents in the grille. but dont knock it......... the sheep have a tendency to buy vehicles whose success should be limited. witness the success of the camry. we enthusiasts just have to hope the manufacturers throw us a bone now and then.

As I've said in the earlier post, I don't think Ridgeline is aimed at the "truck" buyers. When you look at it, do you really see Honda's answer to Tacoma? No, it's an pickup designed for Honda buyers. People who's putting down Ridgeline, I think is judging it as a off-road or work truck. You've got to remember some buyers, probably most buyers don't care about that.

I would love to own a Ridgeline, because I'd never take it off-road, or haul heavy-duty stuff in it. I like the high ground clearance(compared to my Altima with Eibach springs) and some additional space it offers, it'll be handy for camping and other outdoor activities. I'd need the AWD, only when it snows or the road's icy.

 

[a6m5]

Speaking of Suzuki, did you know the XL-7 is my pick for 'worst SUV on the market'? It loses out on 'worst SUV ever' to the Dodge Raider, though.

Wow that is bad, looks like a rebaged Mitsu Pajero or something. Which it more then likely because of the partnership.

You guys are unbelievable. Pajero Rules!

 

[PS]

I see F150's all the time. There's 2 or 3 on my street alone, and I never see them towing anything or fighting through snow, either. My dad had an F150, then he rolled it down a mountain and bought a dodge...then he rolled it down a mountain and bought an F250. He still has the Dodge, though. Looks pretty freakin sweet. All the windows are smashed out and the cabin roof is like crunched down 6-8 inches, pretty cool 👍 .

Oh, and he said the Dodge was the biggest POS he's ever dirven in his life. And now drives ford. Even the Crown Vic.

 

[PS]

I think the Camry is a poor buy - they've just realized they can charge more and they do. Options are expensive, nothing's standard, and V6 power rivals the Americans rather than the Japanese. Malibu, Galant, Accord, Altima - get the hell away from Camry! (however I continue to praise the SE V6 Camry, one of my favorite-looking cars)

I don't get it, I love the car, and in my much more vast expanse of automobile knowledge, my mother says it's a granny car. Are you and I screwed up, or is my mom just crazy and jaded?

 

[Sniffs]

when did this degrade into a cat fight over the merits of SUV's and fuel milage? geeze, get over yourselves. I've said a billion times now that the main reason that people BUY SUV'S is because they feel safer in a tank! americans have accepted crap milage. bad shapes, and high insurance rates as standard operating proceedure. no questions asked. the debate should have been over a long time ago.

the Dodge raider is a rebadged Pajero Mini, as far as I'm concerned

 

[skicrush]

As I've said in the earlier post, I don't think Ridgeline is aimed at the "truck" buyers. When you look at it, do you really see Honda's answer to Tacoma? No, it's an pickup designed for Honda buyers. People who's putting down Ridgeline, I think is judging it as a off-road or work truck. You've got to remember some buyers, probably most buyers don't care about that.

I would love to own a Ridgeline, because I'd never take it off-road, or haul heavy-duty stuff in it. I like the high ground clearance(compared to my Altima with Eibach springs) and some additional space it offers, it'll be handy for camping and other outdoor activities. I'd need the AWD, only when it snows or the road's icy.

You have a great point. And I AM coming at it from an enthusiast perspective--I've gone to Moab rock climbing several times (with my truck). I even had to take the rear bumper off to get a better angle of descent. More than that, I can't do a lot of the things I used to consider pretty normal anymore since I sold my last truck and got stuck in the stanza. The worst thing is, I totally agree with the general point of this thread--big honking SUVs are a complete waste for most people. I guess I should be grateful--if everyone else didn't love to drive them even though they don't need them, we wouldn't get them, and we DO need them here.

 

[PS]

I just like the seating in the SUV's/Minivans. I prefer to sit with my legs kind of down instead of stretched out touching the back of the seat in front of me.

 

[1X83Z]

you would sidestep the X90 and pick the grand vitara as second best? erm.. i mean worst? it seemed like you knew what you were talking about till then.

****!

Well, I guess at the end of the day it depends on your definition of SUV. The X-90 was barely one.

Fine, the three worst SUVs ever are:

- Suzuki XL-7 (not Grand Vitara - it's bad but not XL-7 bad)
- Suzuki X-90
- Dodge Raider

It doesn't even matter which is worse, because they're all so bad it's pointless to even argue over it.

I don't get it, I love the car, and in my much more vast expanse of automobile knowledge, my mother says it's a granny car. Are you and I screwed up, or is my mom just crazy and jaded?

The Camry? It's piss, except for the SE V6.

You guys are unbelievable. Pajero Rules!

Why is everyone calling it a Pajero? You know, the United States got a 2-door Montero in that very same generation.

 

[neanderthal]

****!....

Why is everyone calling it a Pajero? You know, the United States got a 2-door Montero in that very same generation.

its JDM "leet-ism"
like calling a 240SX a silvia.

 

[a6m5]

Why is everyone calling it a Pajero? You know, the United States got a 2-door Montero in that very same generation.

Montero is an export name of Pajero. Pajeros used to kick some serious behind in rally/off-road races. As an Montero, it didn't accomplish much as far as I know.

its JDM "leet-ism"
like calling a 240SX a silvia.

It's not so much the "leet-ism", I didn't even know about the Montero name until I came to the States. It's an name they later came up with for exporting to certain markets.

 

[Gil]

I don't get the hating the Camry. it is exactly what it's designed to be. It's an appliance for hauling people and small stuff from place to place, economically (for it's size) w/o being terribly ugly. (unlike the Chevy Malibu Maxx, for instance, which does all the same stuff, but looks like it was driven thru an 'ugly forest' hitting almost every tree.)

My wife drives a '99 Camry LE with a 4-cyl. We chose it because it was easier for her to drive, easier for me to get in and out of. And better looking, than the Accord on the same lot. And I didn't get 'raped' on the price.

It's no powerhouse like the Maxima, or the V-6 Honda. But it is adequate to the job.
Of course, I rarely drive it more than 5 miles at a clip. I love my truck(s).

 

[1X83Z]

Montero is an export name of Pajero. Pajeros used to kick some serious behind in rally/off-road races. As an Montero, it didn't accomplish much as far as I know.

As I recall they were given three names. Pajero was supposed to be the worldwide name, but it meant wanker in Spanish so they sold it here as Montero. I don't know why they call it Shogun in Europe.

Either way, since we're discussing the Dodge Raider, which was - unfortunately - only sold in the US, I figure 'Montero' is the proper term to use.

don't get the hating the Camry. it is exactly what it's designed to be. It's an appliance for hauling people and small stuff from place to place, economically (for it's size) w/o being terribly ugly. (unlike the Chevy Malibu Maxx, for instance, which does all the same stuff, but looks like it was driven thru an 'ugly forest' hitting almost every tree.)

End of the day I think one can do better than Camry buying new. You can get more spec with Altima, Malibu, and Accord, and a better driving experience with Altima, Accord, and Galant. Once again, I except the SE-V6 Camry. It rocks.

 

[a6m5]

As I recall they were given three names. Pajero was supposed to be the worldwide name, but it meant wanker in Spanish so they sold it here as Montero. I don't know why they call it Shogun in Europe.

That's right!, I forgot about the Shogun name. I heard about it long time ago, didn't even know where that name was used(now I know, thanks!).

Either way, since we're discussing the Dodge Raider, which was - unfortunately - only sold in the US, I figure 'Montero' is the proper term to use.

OK, You're right. I'll keep on calling them Pajero anyway!

End of the day I think one can do better than Camry buying new. You can get more spec with Altima, Malibu, and Accord, and a better driving experience with Altima, Accord, and Galant. Once again, I except the SE-V6 Camry. It rocks.

Take it from an Altima owner..... don't buy it! I don't know how bad Camry might be, but it can't be as bad. I recommend the Accords.

P.S. Wanker? No wonder, they kept on changing the names.

 

[1X83Z]

OK, You're right. I'll keep on calling them Pajero anyway!

Take it from an Altima owner..... don't buy it! I don't know how bad Camry might be, but it can't be as bad. I recommend the Accords.

You don't have a V6, right? I don't recommend the four.

 

[a6m5]

You don't have a V6, right? I don't recommend the four.

Actually, I love the four banger. 👍 Gets decent mpg and has nice torque(don't laugh, my previous ride was 98 Accord LX ). Only thing I like about the car is the engine. After the recent redesign, the interior looks nice now, but I'm pretty sure it still handles like a short bus. My biggest beef with my 2.5S is the turning radius and the handling, especially at high speed.

 

[1X83Z]

Turning radius is a major problem which I hear ALL THE TIME.

I refuse to take blame.

Handling's a new one, though I'm not surprised on the 2.5 model. Have you driven an SE-R? Hell, even an SE would be a huge step up.

Frankly, you probably should've bought a Sentra SE-R. More spec, more go, better handling, better turning radius. I coach a lot of people looking at base midsizes to go down and get a top-level small.

 

[a6m5]

Frankly, you probably should've bought a Sentra SE-R. More spec, more go, better handling, better turning radius. I coach a lot of people looking at base midsizes to go down and get a top-level small.

I drove it right before settling for the Altima. After getting out of my mid-size Accord, the interior just felt too small. You're right though, I should've bought a smaller car. I was thinking that after buying the Accord too, but I did it again.

P.S. I saw your "bad accident" thread from a while ago. Ouch!

 

[1X83Z]

I drove it right before settling for the Altima. After getting out of my mid-size Accord, the interior just felt too small. You're right though, I should've bought a smaller car. I was thinking that after buying the Accord too, but I did it again.

Did you consider a used car?

P.S. I saw your "bad accident" thread from a while ago. Ouch!

They only got worse...

 

[a6m5]

Did you consider a used car?

No, I like the new cars too much. Reading some of your post, I've noticed you're believer of buying used cars though. I might consider an certified used car next time around.

 

[1X83Z]

No, I like the new cars too much. Reading some of your post, I've noticed you're believer of buying used cars though. I might consider an certified used car next time around.

I wouldn't get certified used - it's dealer-only, and they charge out the ass. I'd pretty much only buy private used, unless you absolutely can't find what you're looking for privately. At the end of the day, used is the only thing I'll ever do again (my "new" CLK and "new" Touareg are both lightly used).

 

[TheCracker]

I wouldn't get certified used - it's dealer-only, and they charge out the ass. I'd pretty much only buy private used, unless you absolutely can't find what you're looking for privately. At the end of the day, used is the only thing I'll ever do again (my "new" CLK and "new" Touareg are both lightly used).

Why anyone would buy a car new these days is beyond me. I don't know about the american new car market, but in europe, the moment you drive a car out of the showroom you'll probably have already lost at least 10% of its value. Buying new is a mugs game, like M5Power stated, buy almost new - and let someone else shoulder that depreciation. If you buy an almost-new car with say 5000 miles on the clock you are getting a car which has been already 'run in', has probably had its first service and any of those niggiling faults that seem to blight new cars these days, like loose trim or problematic electronics will have been sorted.

 

[Sniffs]

the depreiciation argument is legit. I was Idly surfing through used sales over in britan to see what cars were going for, and run across a Chimera for Sale for only £13k...i'd snap that up in a new york minute if I had any money to spare...even if I had to pay another 10 grand in shipping.

I see someone figured out the "section label" thing for cars, finally. the US gets it's own label, Europe another, and Japan keeps the original name for itself with it's own models. Gran Turismo 2 alone proves that. for example, the mitsu 3000 GT is GTO at home in Japan, and they can't use that label over here for lawsuit protection

 

[skicrush]

Its the same here--always has been. Looks like its a universal truth.

We have a 98 camry 4 banger, and it does as well the my inlaw's 99 V6 camry. Only problem is that they get about the same mileage--go figure. But I think ours looks tons better than the new versions, besides the fact that I'd never buy new anyway. I will forever believe in getting an older, used "exactly what I want!" than in getting a new, "yeah, it's OK" vehicle. In fact, M5, you can get a decently used M3 for about what you'd pay to get a new sedan (accord, camry, etc), and an M5 for not too much more than a newer, high end sedan.

 

[1X83Z]

If you buy an almost-new car with say 5000 miles on the clock you are getting a car which has been already 'run in', has probably had its first service and any of those niggiling faults that seem to blight new cars these days, like loose trim or problematic electronics will have been sorted.

Plus, you don't have to put up with the stupid break-in period, so you can drive it as fast as you want right away.

The Touareg saved me about $6000 off new, assuming I could find a new one in top-spec anyway. It's only got 5000 miles on it, and it's a 2004, meaning it's almost "two years" old. That'll help when I go to re-sell it.

In fact, M5, you can get a decently used M3 for about what you'd pay to get a new sedan (accord, camry, etc), and an M5 for not too much more than a newer, high end sedan.

True - though until now a manual was the only available transmission on the M5, which creates problems for many, especially those looking in the high end sedan segment. I know it created problems for me (though I do plan on getting the new M5 eventually, now that it has a manu-matic). E36 M3 sedans are steals.