POLL: Rear-view mirror for hood/roof view

  • Thread starter Firehuntah
  • 70 comments
  • 8,576 views

Would you like to have the option to have a rear-view mirror in the hood/roof view?


  • Total voters
    153

Firehuntah

Premium
869
Netherlands
Netherlands
Firehuntah
Alright, so we just got this weird answer on the question to Kaz at E3 why the rear-view mirror is missing in the hood/roof view:

GTP: Why is there no rear-view mirror available in the “roof view”?
KY: There is no real technical reason why it is not there, but the roof view is easier to drive with. It might be unfair if [a rear-view mirror] was there. If you make the view too easy for people to use, everyone might just be using that view.


So I'd like to try the same thing @VBR did with the brake indicator and option to hide hands/wheel in cockpit view to give some more feedback to PD on the beta forums. Please answer the poll, would you like to have the option to have a rear-view mirror in the hood/roof view? In a few days time once we have enough votes I'll post the link and results on the beta forums in the thread I already have for the hood/roof view and send the suggestion through bug report. Hopefully we can still change their opinion on the rear-view mirror this way. Thanks for voting. :)
 

MMX

Premium
2,132
United States
S.C.
Chrome_Tuna
Definitely. No rear view mirror is the only reason I don't use that view.

I use bumper cam, and have for as long as I can remember, but you can't see crap in front when you're on another car's butt, trying to take advantage of a passing opportunity. It has hindered my racing, roof cam with a mirror would be awesome.
 

syntex123

Currently lurking!
Premium
4,042
Norway
Færder
syntex123
Syntex260Z
I think it should be there. I feel like I can't use roof cam because it lacks it. I need to look behind. Isn't that what what Kaz once said, or is in a trailer or something? For clean racing and better interaction between slow and fast, we need that rear view mirror in ALL camera views. Not only roof cam...
 
1,550
Portugal
Porto
JPSILVA1893
Would i like it? Sure why not? It wouldn't hurt to have that option.

Do i really care? No.

I always driven in the roof cam and i never even realized there wasn't a mirror while using that camera. :lol::lol:

It's just another little thing for people to get mad about.
 

Johnnypenso

Well known double poster
Premium
28,466
Canada
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Johnnypenso
I'm all for any and all options that help to increase spatial awareness and aid those that want to race clean. It's hard enough to know where everyone else is when you're looking through a tiny rectangle into the virtual world. Rear view mirrors on all views, adjustable and movable mini-maps, position indicators and anything else you can think of. They should all be there and all be able to be toggled on and off. The mini-map could even be invisible until it's needed. Even the mirror could be made invisible until cars are a certain distance behind you.
 
953
Portugal
Setúbal
dacc10
This will just create a tendency for people to use this because it's far more benefitial. A driver in cockpit view will be at a massive disadvantage by comparison. The spacial and situational awareness would be far superior for those who use that view. Two many advantages for zero drawbacks, unlike other views.
 
4,136
Italy
Rome, Italy
hardvibes
ACR HardVibes
"everyone might just be using that view"

FM has hood+rear view mirror. Let's have a little poll in Forza section to see how many people on gtplanet actually use it. I do, since I started playing forza in 2009, but that doesn't mean everyone does the same. I asked many times to many players and most of them use cockpit or bumper view, not hood.

But seriously where's the problem if everyone might use it?
 

cjr3559

Premium
2,522
United States
Ohio
cjr3559
This will just create a tendency for people to use this because it's far more benefitial. A driver in cockpit view will be at a massive disadvantage by comparison. The spacial and situational awareness would be far superior for those who use that view. Two many advantages for zero drawbacks, unlike other views.

Don't use this view so I have no opinion, but I agree with this post. I like what Codemasters has done by acknowledging that if a user selects or deselects certain views and handicaps, bonus points are offered for making the game more challenging (at least in offline from what I've seen). The fact that PD lumps everyone together is something that's always bothered me.
 
39,072
This will just create a tendency for people to use this because it's far more benefitial.
Ignoring the claims of "massive disadvantage" or "far more beneficial" for a bit, which needs a bit more than Kaz saying "it might be unfair" to justify claiming, I'm still left asking "so"?
 
Last edited:

Johnnypenso

Well known double poster
Premium
28,466
Canada
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Johnnypenso
This will just create a tendency for people to use this because it's far more benefitial. A driver in cockpit view will be at a massive disadvantage by comparison. The spacial and situational awareness would be far superior for those who use that view. Two many advantages for zero drawbacks, unlike other views.
I've used nothing but cockpit view since I started racing on pc. I have no issues with spatial awareness and I'm faster than I ever was and I use an FOV of 40. In a properly designed game, there is little to no drawback to using cockpit view. That's why virtual mirrors, a scalable mini-map and position indicators need to be available in all views.
 

Johnnypenso

Well known double poster
Premium
28,466
Canada
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Johnnypenso
Kaz should be thinking of things to add to the game to increase spatial awareness in all views, not taking things away in a lame attempt to equalize what he perceives as an advantage because they haven't done a good enough job giving players options in this regard. In a supposedly FIA/eSports focused game, in the supposedly leading franchise on this platform, I find it curious that they aren't at the forefront in this regard.
 

mcsqueegy

Premium
1,861
Antarctica
Antarctica
This is the first GT game I started to use hood view for, simply because the chase cam is a bit disorienting compared to what I'm used to in GT6. The lack of a rear view camera is unfortunate but not a disaster, as I use the radar during races and have enough time to look behind me when I need to anyway. I'd like to see the option for the sake of others who use it, but in my case, I really don't care if it shows up in the final game or not.
 
Alright, so we just got this weird answer on the question to Kaz at E3 why the rear-view mirror is missing in the hood/roof view:




So I'd like to try the same thing @VBR did with the brake indicator and option to hide hands/wheel in cockpit view to give some more feedback to PD on the beta forums. Please answer the poll, would you like to have the option to have a rear-view mirror in the hood/roof view? In a few days time once we have enough votes I'll post the link and results on the beta forums in the thread I already have for the hood/roof view and send the suggestion through bug report. Hopefully we can still change their opinion on the rear-view mirror this way. Thanks for voting. :)
A better question would have been- Kaz, why the hell is there a roof view?
 
1,391
United States
vermont
diesel4x497
GTP: Why is there no rear-view mirror available in the “roof view”?
KY: There is no real technical reason why it is not there, but the roof view is easier to drive with. It might be unfair if [a rear-view mirror] was there. If you make the view too easy for people to use, everyone might just be using that view

Am I the only one that thinks when leading with this as an answer when not prompted it is the REASON. It is a known fact that mirrors beat of on graphics.
 

Firehuntah

Premium
869
Netherlands
Netherlands
Firehuntah
This will just create a tendency for people to use this because it's far more benefitial. A driver in cockpit view will be at a massive disadvantage by comparison. The spacial and situational awareness would be far superior for those who use that view. Two many advantages for zero drawbacks, unlike other views.

While that might be true, the same is already happening with the bumper/normal view. Just look at some gameplay videos and you'll see at least 60% using that view. it pretty much has it all, The only drawback that view has, at least for me, is not being able to see any part of your car so it's hard to judge the space between your car and a car in front of you. For the rest it has some more features that the hood/roof view doesn't have like the sides of the screen going dark when a car is near. Now that is one feature that actually isn't needed for the hood/roof view so it's all good, since you can see a bit more on your left and right. But whatever you can see behind you is exactly the same in both views so why not a rear-view mirror for both? It wouldn't give an unfair advantage in my opinion.

Sure, go ahead with your roof cam mirror in the Real Driving Simulator, :P but let us have a force-cockpit-view option on the servers too.

Most people are only using the current roof view because we don't have a proper bonnet view, the roof view comes closest on some of the cars with only the bonnet visible, though most other cars have a very obvious roof view. I fully agree that the current view is not realistic at all but if we don't like the other views available there's not much of a choice is there?

A better question would have been- Kaz, why the hell is there a roof view?

Agree, though I'm sure some people like it. I'd like to see a real bonnet view instead, or just both as an option. I actually requested this on the beta forums as well but they haven't made any changes yet to this view unfortunately. Only Chase view, Cockpit view and Bumper/Normal view are getting upgrades.

This is the first GT game I started to use hood view for, simply because the chase cam is a bit disorienting compared to what I'm used to in GT6. The lack of a rear view camera is unfortunate but not a disaster, as I use the radar during races and have enough time to look behind me when I need to anyway. I'd like to see the option for the sake of others who use it, but in my case, I really don't care if it shows up in the final game or not.

I use the radar as well but the range is very limited. If I'm focused on the drivers in front of me and someone behind does a divebomb meanwhile I get hit every time. I just can't see that coming without a rear-view mirror since I don't want to lose focus on what's happening in front of me, so looking behind is not of much use. On a wheel that's turning it's also quite tricky sometimes to find the button you assigned to look behind you, especially with a G29, button placement is a bit awkward compared to the G27. Having a quick glimpse at a rear-view mirror would be so much better.

GTP: Why is there no rear-view mirror available in the “roof view”?
KY: There is no real technical reason why it is not there, but the roof view is easier to drive with. It might be unfair if [a rear-view mirror] was there. If you make the view too easy for people to use, everyone might just be using that view

Am I the only one that thinks when leading with this as an answer when not prompted it is the REASON. It is a known fact that mirrors beat of on graphics.

I don't think that's the issue. Cockpit view is actually showing 3 mirrors with their own view so it really can't be a performance thing. So the roof view should be able to at least have 1 as well. ;)
 

Johnnypenso

Well known double poster
Premium
28,466
Canada
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Johnnypenso
I use the radar as well but the range is very limited. If I'm focused on the drivers in front of me and someone behind does a divebomb meanwhile I get hit every time. I just can't see that coming without a rear-view mirror since I don't want to lose focus on what's happening in front of me, so looking behind is not of much use. On a wheel that's turning it's also quite tricky sometimes to find the button you assigned to look behind you, especially with a G29, button placement is a bit awkward compared to the G27. Having a quick glimpse at a rear-view mirror would be so much better.
GT5 had a much better radar system that had a range of close to 1 second behind you. Basically if you entered the braking zone in any corner, and no one was on your radar, you didn't have to worry about getting divebombed. I expected GTSport, given the type of game it is, to come up with something revolutionary in this regard. Assetto Corsa has a user developed app that I think is just beautiful. You can customize it in several ways, it disappears when no one is close by, it lights up directionally and proportionately when cars are within contact range etc. It's simply invaluable when racing in cockpit view and negates the need for using the lookback button completely, when under pressure.
 
953
Portugal
Setúbal
dacc10
Besides who cares if it is advantageous, we're supposed to race clean. A mirror is a must in all views imo.
We should've been given the option to customize the HUD to our liking.

Well if a game has a skill based ranking, then yes, I do care about factors that might have direct influence in our skill.
Besides, a mirror can also be used to race dirty, so there goes your argument.

Ignoring the claims of "massive disadvantage" or "far more beneficial" for a bit, which needs a bit more than Kaz saying "it might be unfair" to justify claiming, I'm still left asking "so"?

That "so" is the same argument hackers use in many games when they're criticized for doing so. It's also the same answer aim assist users use when confronted by someone. So, not really a valid argument.
If it's something that has influence on your skill rating/level, that takes zero skill requirement to use, then yes it's a problem. It takes more skill to get 20 kills without aim assist, than 30 with it. The same here, it's already easier to drive in hood/roof view, give it a mirror and you have no drawbacks, while in others views you have (lower field of view and objects blocking your view). Having almost an "eagle-eye" over each corner, each apex and each braking point is a huge advantage, specially in tracks with elevation changes. The exclusion of a mirror in those views (includind 3rd person) is just a little drawback to balance things out a bit.

I've used nothing but cockpit view since I started racing on pc. I have no issues with spatial awareness and I'm faster than I ever was and I use an FOV of 40. In a properly designed game, there is little to no drawback to using cockpit view. That's why virtual mirrors, a scalable mini-map and position indicators need to be available in all views.

Don't lie to yourself, even in real life, spatial awareness is heavily limited inside the car. From the pillars to anything else that blocks your view to the exterior will affect your spatial awareness. Even the height of the car affects it. The only way for that to change would be if cars had fighter aircraft like cockpit with pretty much zero objects obstructing the driver's view (and this is what happens in roof view).
Faster lap times come from experience and track knowledge, not from cockpit view.
 
39,072
That "so" is the same argument hackers use in many games when they're criticized for doing so. It's also the same answer aim assist users use when confronted by someone.
If your response to that question was to go all the way to people hacking games to change the entire parameter of how the game is played, then you don't actually have an answer for "so". It also doesn't do a very good job of you justifying claims like "massive disadvantage" and"far more beneficial" if you have to resort to hyperbole that extreme to defend your point.

Faster lap times come from experience and track knowledge, not from cockpit view.
And here I thought faster lap times came from roof cam.
 
Last edited:

marcvic

Premium
863
United States
USA
marcvic
I personally have never used the roof cam.

That being said, the roof cam does provide a really wide degree of visibility, and a rear view cam would give you as close of a 360 degree field of view that you can get. I can see how that would seem to be an unfair advantage in sport mode.
 
1,391
United States
vermont
diesel4x497
I don't think that's the issue. Cockpit view is actually showing 3 mirrors with their own view so it really can't be a performance thing. So the roof view should be able to at least have 1 as well. ;)
Cockpit has a different FOV which affects draw distance. Kaz just sounds like the classic Forden slip :lol::lol:
 
953
Portugal
Setúbal
dacc10
If your response to that question was to go all the way to people hacking games to change the entire parameter of how the game is played, then you don't actually have an answer for "so". It also doesn't do a very good job of you justifying claims like "massive disadvantage" and"far more beneficial" if you have to resort to hyperbole that extreme to defend your point.


And here I thought faster lap times came from roof cam.

Read again.
If you don't think that a higher and clearer field of view is an advantage, then you should ask mother nature why do certain animals have eyes in opposite sides of their heads, and the eyes are, in most land animals atleast, in the highest part of the body, and not on their knees. It seems pretty simple. If you don't get this, laws of nature, then there's no point in keep debating this.

You should try and read that phrase with some context. You might figure out that I was coutering a claim of cockpit view making someone faster. And yes, roof view can make you faster, once again the field of view is important, but you didn't learn that yet, you can only say "So?".

While that might be true, the same is already happening with the bumper/normal view. Just look at some gameplay videos and you'll see at least 60% using that view. it pretty much has it all, The only drawback that view has, at least for me, is not being able to see any part of your car so it's hard to judge the space between your car and a car in front of you. For the rest it has some more features that the hood/roof view doesn't have like the sides of the screen going dark when a car is near. Now that is one feature that actually isn't needed for the hood/roof view so it's all good, since you can see a bit more on your left and right. But whatever you can see behind you is exactly the same in both views so why not a rear-view mirror for both? It wouldn't give an unfair advantage in my opinion.

While what you say is true, in bumper cam you have two disadvantages. The first is that you seat really low, which might be a problem in tracks with elevation changes. The second being the fact that once you get closer to the rear of another car, you loose visibility.
 

Johnnypenso

Well known double poster
Premium
28,466
Canada
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Johnnypenso
Don't lie to yourself, even in real life, spatial awareness is heavily limited inside the car. From the pillars to anything else that blocks your view to the exterior will affect your spatial awareness. Even the height of the car affects it. The only way for that to change would be if cars had fighter aircraft like cockpit with pretty much zero objects obstructing the driver's view (and this is what happens in roof view).
Faster lap times come from experience and track knowledge, not from cockpit view.
Wrong and completely so. I am more spatially aware in Assetto Corsa cockpit view with the tools provided than I ever was in GT6 using the hood view. With the ability to fully adjust my FOV, cockpit position and the use of a viritual mirror and HeliCorsa, I know where everyone is around me at all times with only slight movements of my eyes and without ever having to touch a button. And, as I said, using cockpit view I'm faster than ever based on my shrinking gap to known alien drivers who raced in both GT5/6 and PCARS and AC on pc. The key is providing the drivers the widest range of options to enhance that spatial awareness, something it seems Kaz hasn't figured out yet.
 
Last edited:

syntex123

Currently lurking!
Premium
4,042
Norway
Færder
syntex123
Syntex260Z
Well if a game has a skill based ranking, then yes, I do care about factors that might have direct influence in our skill.
Besides, a mirror can also be used to race dirty, so there goes your argument.
The lack of a mirror can also be used to race dirty ;)
 

Northstar

The Original Party Worm
Premium
23,374
United States
Anoka, MN
RokkitShipp
I find it very aggravating that there are still games that don't allow you to toggle each HUD item individually.

Also, for those complaining about any advantage that roof cam may have, should wheel support be discontinued since it also can provide an advantage over pad users?
 
231
United States
Dallas, Texas
DoublePass
I really think we should just have cockpit view since GT Sport is the more serious side of Gran Turismo.

Also I think it would be the other way around, they would discontinue pads not wheels because like I said this is the more serious version of the Gran Turismo series