POLL: Rear-view mirror for hood/roof view

  • Thread starter Firehuntah
  • 70 comments
  • 8,578 views

Would you like to have the option to have a rear-view mirror in the hood/roof view?


  • Total voters
    153
39,072
Read again.
I did. I referenced it multiple times, too. You claimed a "massive disadvantage" to those who use other views, and that it was "far more beneficial" to use it than not. These are things that would probably need to be borne out with examples and competitive experience rather than just because it was something Kaz said in an interview where he happened to say some pretty stupid things anyway.



To justify that after being called on it, you equated it to people cheating in online games and game options that actively lower the level of difficulty by changing how the game controls. And those comparisons are still just as ridiculous as they were the first time I read them. It shouldn't even need to be explained to you why the former is so silly to bring up; but even the latter, which the GT series has had an equivalent for years now with SRF, should defy comparison simply because of how dramatically different a game plays with those sort of options enabled compared to how dramatically different a racing game doesn't play if you use a different camera angle.
So what extra information am I supposed to gleam from any of your posts that makes those comparisons I responded to specifically in that post more valid? Something about horses are better at racing games?

You might figure out that I was coutering a claim of cockpit view making someone faster.
That wasn't what Johnnypenso said, so your lecture on understanding context falls rather flat. If faster laptimes come from experience and track knowledge and not what camera view you were most comfortable with using because one is so clearly better that it is the equivalent to cheating in online games and having auto aim turned on in an FPS, it would stand to reason that the same would apply to being faster in an actual race situation.

And yes, roof view can make you faster
Interesting. Now we've gone from "massive disadvantage" and "far more beneficial" to "can make you faster;" presumably with more of an effect than someone with the newly announced $800 GT wheel competing with someone with a worn out DS4 does, or someone who understands suspension tuning does over someone who just picks a car and plays, or someone who plays the game in VR on the PS4 Pro and theoretically has a humongously larger FoV and better image quality to act with.


How does disabling the rearview mirror counter this, pray tell? Because I can't speak for everyone, but I am perfectly capable of looking behind me in racing games and have always done so in every racing game where the option was given (like GT Sport does) usually instead of checking mirrors. And games with blind spot indicators or radar/zoomable track maps (like GT Sport has) I also rely on more than checking mirrors. That's to the extent of not tending to enjoy playing racing games where the option isn't given no matter what camera view I use when playing it; since in my experience of growing up playing console games primarily the rearview mirror had notable drawbacks to just looking behind me with a button press; from important graphical details being dropped (like older GT games did) to framerate drops/inconsistencies when the mirror is enabled (older NFS games) to just plain the mirror not being as useful as a button that turns the entire screen into the entire view behind you (almost all of them).
So it seems to me that if you want to push the absurd notion that a minor change in height and FoV is equivalent to auto aim in a series that already has a close analog, disabling something I don't rely on anyway doesn't negate the "massive disadvantage" I'm supposedly putting everyone at by using the camera view. Nevermind if the view itself supposedly can make you faster even when not having other drivers to race against, at which point the mirrors would do precisely dick for everyone who used it no matter their experience in time trial races.







It certainly seems like it can make it much more difficult for people without much experience to have a clean race, though.
 
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1,391
United States
vermont
diesel4x497
The only advantage to forced view is the one forcing the view. If you are not comfortable or use to a view you will be slower no matter what the view is.
 
898
Australia
Tasmania
RobUrabus
Definitely needs the mirrors (i'd actually prefer side mirrors in the hood view) you get a much better sense of cars around you without even looking at them

GT REALLY needs the "dash-pod" view available in other sims like Dirt RAlly
with a wheel, it is the most natural feeling view i've ever driven with.

Roof View needs to die , and give us a proper bonnet view. (base of windscreen)
that again is a very natural feeling view
 
11,660
GTP_Orido
Yes on vote if cockpit forcing became available!

Forced cockpit view is my preference too for Sports mode ( but not all events, only on certain events like the FIA Championship where the drivers are less likely to act dirty and better racecraft ) Gaijin did it well on Birds of Prey and Birds of Steel, where in simulator mode, the view is locked to either cockpit/virtual cockpit :D
 

Johnnypenso

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Johnnypenso
Forced cockpit view is my preference too for Sports mode ( but not all events, only on certain events like the FIA Championship where the drivers are less likely to act dirty and better racecraft ) Gaijin did it well on Birds of Prey and Birds of Steel, where in simulator mode, the view is locked to either cockpit/virtual cockpit :D
What purpose would it serve to force cockpit view on for Sports Mode? You definitely risk alienating a large portion of the audience that prefers the other views available in the game, especially when you can't tailor the FOV to suit your home setup and only have extremely limited cockpit adjustability. An option to force any particular view in an open lobby would be welcome, but forcing it in Sport Mode would be a mistake IMO.
 
11,660
GTP_Orido
What purpose would it serve to force cockpit view on for Sports Mode? You definitely risk alienating a large portion of the audience that prefers the other views available in the game, especially when you can't tailor the FOV to suit your home setup and only have extremely limited cockpit adjustability. An option to force any particular view in an open lobby would be welcome, but forcing it in Sport Mode would be a mistake IMO.

Not all Sports mode races will be forced, I would only prefer it locked on certain events only like FIA Championship or other races that has live broadcast ( maybe the live event can use triple screen ? ), where not every driver can qualify to enter ( I assume there will be criteria that needs to be fulfilled in order to compete ) I think we can force it on these kind of event ( I believe the drivers at least can drive/race clean in cockpit view )

For open lobby, I agree that the option would be great to lock certain view :) I myself drive in cockpit view 90+% of the time when playing GT6, and I have been disabling HUD for close to 2 years now.
 
953
Portugal
Setúbal
dacc10
Wrong and completely so. I am more spatially aware in Assetto Corsa cockpit view with the tools provided than I ever was in GT6 using the hood view. With the ability to fully adjust my FOV, cockpit position and the use of a viritual mirror and HeliCorsa, I know where everyone is around me at all times with only slight movements of my eyes and without ever having to touch a button. And, as I said, using cockpit view I'm faster than ever based on my shrinking gap to known alien drivers who raced in both GT5/6 and PCARS and AC on pc. The key is providing the drivers the widest range of options to enhance that spatial awareness, something it seems Kaz hasn't figured out yet.

Aka, turn God mode on to have all the perception in the world.
Remember what you said there every single time you talk about immersion. You can't have immersion with all those aids, unless you are God (doubt it though). The aids in competitive games should be there only if strictly necessary. If those aids make someone better than the others (whether it's faster, more accurate, more aware), then they should be removed or toned down.

I did. I referenced it multiple times, too. You claimed a "massive disadvantage" to those who use other views, and that it was "far more beneficial" to use it than not. These are things that would probably need to be borne out with examples and competitive experience rather than just because it was something Kaz said in an interview where he happened to say some pretty stupid things anyway.



To justify that after being called on it, you equated it to people cheating in online games and game options that actively lower the level of difficulty by changing how the game controls. And those comparisons are still just as ridiculous as they were the first time I read them. It shouldn't even need to be explained to you why the former is so silly to bring up; but even the latter, which the GT series has had an equivalent for years now with SRF, should defy comparison simply because of how dramatically different a game plays with those sort of options enabled compared to how dramatically different a racing game doesn't play if you use a different camera angle.
So what extra information am I supposed to gleam from any of your posts that makes those comparisons I responded to specifically in that post more valid? Something about horses are better at racing games?


That wasn't what Johnnypenso said, so your lecture on understanding context falls rather flat. If faster laptimes come from experience and track knowledge and not what camera view you were most comfortable with using because one is so clearly better that it is the equivalent to cheating in online games and having auto aim turned on in an FPS, it would stand to reason that the same would apply to being faster in an actual race situation.


Interesting. Now we've gone from "massive disadvantage" and "far more beneficial" to "can make you faster;" presumably with more of an effect than someone with the newly announced $800 GT wheel competing with someone with a worn out DS4 does, or someone who understands suspension tuning does over someone who just picks a car and plays, or someone who plays the game in VR on the PS4 Pro and theoretically has a humongously larger FoV and better image quality to act with.


How does disabling the rearview mirror counter this, pray tell? Because I can't speak for everyone, but I am perfectly capable of looking behind me in racing games and have always done so in every racing game where the option was given (like GT Sport does) usually instead of checking mirrors. And games with blind spot indicators or radar/zoomable track maps (like GT Sport has) I also rely on more than checking mirrors. That's to the extent of not tending to enjoy playing racing games where the option isn't given no matter what camera view I use when playing it; since in my experience of growing up playing console games primarily the rearview mirror had notable drawbacks to just looking behind me with a button press; from important graphical details being dropped (like older GT games did) to framerate drops/inconsistencies when the mirror is enabled (older NFS games) to just plain the mirror not being as useful as a button that turns the entire screen into the entire view behind you (almost all of them).
So it seems to me that if you want to push the absurd notion that a minor change in height and FoV is equivalent to auto aim in a series that already has a close analog, disabling something I don't rely on anyway doesn't negate the "massive disadvantage" I'm supposedly putting everyone at by using the camera view. Nevermind if the view itself supposedly can make you faster even when not having other drivers to race against, at which point the mirrors would do precisely dick for everyone who used it no matter their experience in time trial races.







It certainly seems like it can make it much more difficult for people without much experience to have a clean race, though.

Such a pretty text, but still can't see the advantage of having a higher and wider field of view and how that can affect how people take on corners and braking points. Oh well.
 

Firehuntah

Premium
869
Netherlands
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Firehuntah
Some divided opinions here which is good. ;) It's nice to see why people would be against a rear-view mirror for roof view. Saying it would be god mode to have things like this for extra spatial awareness is a little bit of a stretch though. Remember, in a real car you can quickly move your eyes to see in the left-side mirror, right-side mirror and rear-view mirror to get a complete view of what's going on around your car, while still seeing the road and other cars ahead of you. So cockpit is already a bad example to use since you can only really see in front of you and in most cars half of the rear-view mirror and left- or right-side mirror (depending on which side of the car the wheel is on). So you already see a lot less in that view since you have no idea what's going on on the side of the car that you can't see. Only in VR cockpit view would really work well since you then actually see what you'd see in real life.

As for normal/bumper view vs roof view. I just made some screenshots of both views in the beta.

Gran%20TurismoSport%20Closed%20Beta%20Test%20Version_20170616161024_zps0rd8zjpf.jpg


Gran%20TurismoSport%20Closed%20Beta%20Test%20Version_20170616161209_zpsy2nbd2h6.jpg


In the roof view do you really see that much more next to you that a rear-view mirror isn't needed? The FoV is indeed a little bit wider but it isn't really that much of a difference. Arguments about being able to see more in front of you because of the higher camera position are a bit useless in my opinion since that's not what a rear-view mirror is for. ;) It's all about what you're able to see next to you and behind you which to me is pretty much the same in both views without a rear-view mirror.

Quick photoshop, why shouldn't this be allowed? I'd really like to see some opinions from the people who voted no on the poll.

Roof-view%20with%20rear-view%20mirror_zpsdi04r89q.jpg
 
2,643
United Kingdom
UK
Outspacer
I haven't voted since I don't use that view, but I don't see why it shouldn't have a mirror.

That said, the bumper cam 'mirror' has such a wide FOV that you don't really see cars behind on fast sections until they're well within 1 second. Which means that in the braking area there can easily be unseen cars that have a chance to divebomb - this catches me out sometimes even when it's a clean driver, since I leave the door open for a pass, thinking I can take a wide entry line. Plus cars still appear to be far behind right until they're on your bumper. I have to keep flipping to the look back view to calibrate what I'm seeing in the mirror.
 
39,072
Such a pretty text, but still can't see the advantage of having a higher and wider field of view and how that can affect how people take on corners and braking points. Oh well.
So what you're saying is turning the mirrors off does absolutely nothing to balance this ridiculously overpowered camera view, then; since horses being good at racing games has nothing to do with rear spatial awareness.

Glad you came around and backed away from your earlier claims.
 
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2,643
United Kingdom
UK
Outspacer
MMX
They should add text to the mirror saying, "Divebombers are closer than they appear." :D

Well yeah, but I think it's overdone... instead of the wide angle effect occuring at the mirror, it's happening at the fake viewpoint, making it even more exaggerated. What would be cool is more normal FOV in the centre part of it, with wide angle insets either side - a bit more like the combination of mirrors you actually get in a car! Now there's radical thinking, lol.
 

FPV MIC

Premium
3,203
Australia
Australia
GT-MIC
For Sport Mode no, as I'm not exactly sure how you could see the mirror from outside the car, but for any other part of the game yes. Even roof cam isn't that much of an advantage in spacial awareness terms, but I would prefer it to be a proper bonnet/dash cam. 3rd person view is the one I take most issue with, IMO it shouldn't be allowed in Sport Mode as it's far to easy to block and nerf (or avoid) others in that view.

@Firehuntah Could you please add a 3rd person view to your comparison (I don't have the beta:(), I think this view is the most controversial. Thanks in advance.
 
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Johnnypenso

Well known double poster
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28,466
Canada
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Johnnypenso
Aka, turn God mode on to have all the perception in the world.
Remember what you said there every single time you talk about immersion. You can't have immersion with all those aids, unless you are God (doubt it though). The aids in competitive games should be there only if strictly necessary. If those aids make someone better than the others (whether it's faster, more accurate, more aware), then they should be removed or toned down.

Such a pretty text, but still can't see the advantage of having a higher and wider field of view and how that can affect how people take on corners and braking points. Oh well.
My top priority when I'm racing online is to race as clean as possible, first and foremost. Immersion is a secondary consideration when compared to the enjoyment of my fellow racers. Cars come with a mirror, so using the virtual mirror in cockpit as I do, when necessary, seems perfectly natural. In many cars I just use the actual mirror in the car and some of the modern cars come with a digital screen on the dash that acts as a rear view mirror. The radar screen only pops up when someone is near, other than that it's invisible. These aren't driving aids, they're features that aid spatial awareness that help us to race clean. You don't gain any speed advantage when you know if someone is behind you or beside you so your point about making you faster is completely irrelevant.
 
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FPV MIC

Premium
3,203
Australia
Australia
GT-MIC
A visual representation of my thoughts on roof cam.

i16MDbSmiseAiz.png


I understand that this is a game and doesn't have to be 100% realistic, but come on, how the hell can you see the interior mirror from up there :)

And just to add, for me this camera position debate isn't so much in relation to speed, it's more to do with SR (and for the ovals mostly, where spacial awareness is far more critical).
 

Firehuntah

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869
Netherlands
Netherlands
Firehuntah
For Sport Mode no, as I'm not exactly sure how you could see the mirror from outside the car, but for any other part of the game yes. Even roof cam isn't that much of an advantage in spacial awareness terms, but I would prefer it to be a proper bonnet/dash cam. 3rd person view is the one I take most issue with, IMO it shouldn't be allowed in Sport Mode as it's far to easy to block and nerf (or avoid) others in that view.

Yes, I too would prefer a real bonnet view instead of this roof view pointing at the bonnet. But we don't have that so this is the closest we can use. And I agree that Chase view doesn't need any extra mirrors or even the radar. You can already see all around your car so that view is fine the way it is now. Not allowing it in sport mode would be a bit silly though, people should be free to use whatever view they're comfortable with. Why have all these different views then anyway? You can't expect someone who's used to chase view to suddenly do an online race in a forced cockpit view (for example) and still be good and clean.

A visual representation of my thoughts on roof cam.

I understand that this is a game and doesn't have to be 100% realistic, but come on, how the hell can you see the interior mirror from up there :)

And just to add, for me this camera position debate isn't so much in relation to speed, it's more to do with SR (and for the ovals mostly, where spacial awareness is far more critical).

What about the bumper/normal view then? Can you see your rear-view mirror from the bumper? I don't think so. Yet it's still there in that view. Only cockpit view is realistic then if you look at it like that. But the mirrors are not visible enough in cockpit view to be able to use them properly, especially with a wheel where you can't rotate the camera smoothly to be able to look at the side mirrors.

And it's actually better to have the mirror in all views for SR so people are more aware of what's going on around them and can drive more easily without hitting others.

@Firehuntah Could you please add a 3rd person view to your comparison (I don't have the beta:(), I think this view is the most controversial. Thanks in advance.

Had to take some new screenshots since the track changed in the beta, from an oval to another oval.. Yey for Gr3 ovals in Europe. Anyway, the screenshots for FoV comparison. :P

Bumper/Normal View
Gran%20TurismoSport%20Closed%20Beta%20Test%20Version_20170616223242_zpsdsix9aoc.jpg


Roof View
Gran%20TurismoSport%20Closed%20Beta%20Test%20Version_20170616223235_zpsigu9jojo.jpg


Cockpit View (Most forward setting)
Gran%20TurismoSport%20Closed%20Beta%20Test%20Version_20170616223246_zpsqun8spsu.jpg


Cockpit View (Most backward setting)
Gran%20TurismoSport%20Closed%20Beta%20Test%20Version_20170616223450_zpsi9zhpfj6.jpg


Chase View (Far)
Gran%20TurismoSport%20Closed%20Beta%20Test%20Version_20170616223327_zpsuc4ysaq0.jpg


Chase View (Near)
Gran%20TurismoSport%20Closed%20Beta%20Test%20Version_20170616223344_zps3yklnhyf.jpg
 

Firehuntah

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869
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Netherlands
Firehuntah
The two chase cams looked near identical to me.

Yeah it's a bit hard to see in these small screenshots, on a big TV you really notice the difference with the nearest chase view though. :P But it's just a bit closer and lower than the standard chase view.
 

FPV MIC

Premium
3,203
Australia
Australia
GT-MIC
Thanks, greatly appreciated :cheers: 👍.

What I mean by the SR implications is that I could be forced out of my normal view and therefore slightly slower, not so much forcing others into changing, especially in regards to the ovals where 3rd person would be king for SR (and probably will be, mirror or not), in order to keep the same SR rating as someone that's normally the same speed when I'm able to use my preferred view. I think this could be what Kaz's thinking is towards evening the playing field for all views, and I'm not against it.

In regards to bumper view, if bumper view is the same as GT6 where the view was taken in an identical position from in-car to bumper view (I can't quite tell from those pics), but bumper view just had the car/dash removed, then I think the digital mirror could still be used for bumper cam. If this is the case then it's not quite the same as driving with your head on the roof, it's actually in the same position as interior view. The same would go for a proper bonnet view IMO ie. same view point, just with a visual bonnet reference = ok for an internal mirror in my book.:)

Edit: Sorry, I forgot to quote you @Firehuntah :embarrassed:
 
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Firehuntah

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Firehuntah
Since we now have about the same amount of votes as the other polls, I have just posted the results and opinions on the beta forum and also through bug report as a suggestion. Lets see what happens, hopefully they'll look into it once more and maybe change their mind if they see most people actually do want to have this feature available. We have to wait and see now, perhaps we'll see a change in one of the beta updates or maybe at least get a reaction from them if it's not going to be done.
 
2,643
Finland
Finland
OdeFinn
1,719
Finland
Finland
HI-tauer
Yes, but a small one. It makes races also cleaner to see better. Similar effect to blind spot indicator.
 
210
United States
Massachusetts
If I need to see behind me , I have a button called "rear view." It's so great to use.

I would prefer NOT to be forced to have a mirror in every view, as I find it a distraction... especially when people who flash lights continually get behind to draw your attention away from what's in front.

What's so difficult about using the rear view button for .2 seconds?