[POLL] What will PD release next?

[Johnnypenso]

Imagine that instead of describing lines, they're describing things like modeling, texturing, anti-aliasing, lighting, networking, Nyquist theorem, Runga-Kutta method, orthonormal matrices etc.

Wonder why the swear filter didn't pick up on Runga-Kutta..that sounds like it must be a swear word in some language

 

[Griffith500]

That video isn't much like us and PD, there is two way communication in that video.

Similarly, there's a lot of the appearance of solid, fluent two-way communication with publishers these days, but very little of the substance of it. Some devs do get it right, but I don't think it's a necessity or even reasonable for all games.

Anyway, the particular comparison being made was not so much the communication itself, just the hilarious cluelessness we all share, one way or another, whether we're aware of it or not.
Engineers always find themselves painfully conceding: "Technically, it's possible."

Wonder why the swear filter didn't pick up on Runga-Kutta..that sounds like it must be a swear word in some language

It pretty much was during my initial exposure to it, and other related schemes.
I think it was my worst exam result ever, not least because I can't even spell it: Runge-Kutta.

Of course, there are people who practically breathe that stuff, and they're who you need to get things done! Someone has to translate somewhere along the line, though, which is why it pays to have people who get both sides of the conversation high-up in the decision making process. You could even argue Kaz fits that description, since he's not only the driving force behind GT as a brand, he's also clued-up on the technical stuff, having started there.

Maybe it really is solely his fault an update to the sounds (among other things) is taking so long, because he recognises the technical possibilities and what they mean for the overall progress, and that vision is just too powerful to resist.
It sort of makes the whole Spec-II theory more sensible, because so much has to change that, at this late stage, it might be easier to do it on a separate fork and issue all of the big changes in one go! That would mean the next release would indeed still be paltry, in terms of what we are all really wanting.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

Well, @Samus, you are right, we don't get much from PD. But, my point is, we have people saying "We want everything, and we want it now!" who aren't being very realistic.

Now, I agree. Everything in the poll is probably at the very least being looked at, if not being constructed. So, we shall see what happens from here.

I just wanted to give a bit of perspective.

 

[Samus]

They aren't saying we want it all now, they've been wanting it the last four months.

 

[4everdelayed]

Yes, they are. That is the point of the video: "non-technical" people "just don't get it", that's the joke.

Good job on assuming that everyone who's not happy with the pile of junk called GT6 must be "non-technical" (or a woman).

Your entire argument is "if you don't like it, YOU'RE STUPID". I hope you realize that.

Oh and no, the video has no relevance to what the non-technical (read: stupid) people are saying here.

Now, I agree. Everything in the poll is probably at the very least being looked at, if not being constructed.

Every option on the poll is a feature that has been advertised by PD. On their website. And by Kaz himself. Orally and in front of an audience. In May of the year 2013. No less.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

So "Everyone" was too broad. Fine, I'll retract that. It still covers those who DO say "gimme"

 

[pyrates]

So "Everyone" was too broad. Fine, I'll retract that. It still covers those who DO say "gimme"

All I see is PD promising 6 red cats and delivering us 4 transparent ones and 2 blue dogs.

 

[Griffith500]

Good job on assuming that everyone who's not happy with the pile of junk called GT6 must be "non-technical" (or a woman).

I said nothing about being happy or not. I said everyone, and I actually mean it, too. Yes, that includes women, although I have no idea why you would associate being non-technical with being female, it's certainly not something I believe, unless you want to claim that social norms should be held above types of mental faculties as an indicator of natural skillset.

Your entire argument is "if you don't like it, YOU'RE STUPID". I hope you realize that.

If that were the case, I'd be calling myself stupid, too. Maybe I am.

Oh and no, the video has no relevance to what the non-technical (read: stupid) people are saying here.

It does, because we're saying things like "why can't it be done?" with no insight whatsoever into what PD are working on. The point is simply that we are ignorant, in the pure sense of "not knowing", not as a pejorative.

Non-technical doesn't mean stupid, either, that's your own baggage. This isn't "the war", you know.

 

[AudiMan2011]

Judging by PD's current pace, it'll soon be time to cobble together some half-baked ideas from GT6, call it GT7: Prologue and rush it out for PS4 at full price.

 

[Johnnypenso]

It sort of makes the whole Spec-II theory more sensible, because so much has to change that, at this late stage, it might be easier to do it on a separate fork and issue all of the big changes in one go! That would mean the next release would indeed still be paltry, in terms of what we are all really wanting.

Spec II makes the most logical sense at this point. I can't see them just releasing something bit by bit at this point, it makes more sense at this point to throw it all in one big package and call it Spec II. I think that was the plan all along.

Note for the record, I am also predicting Senna content will be tied in with GTAcademy, with the qualifier run on Interlagos!!

 

[TokoTurismo]

Man. PD really put themselves in a tough situation to the point they're going to gain lay offs. So many promises Kaz is making and he can't even fulfill them... Ugh.

 

[Tenacious D]

Maybe it really is solely his fault an update to the sounds (among other things) is taking so long, because he recognises the technical possibilities and what they mean for the overall progress, and that vision is just too powerful to resist.

It sort of makes the whole Spec-II theory more sensible, because so much has to change that, at this late stage, it might be easier to do it on a separate fork and issue all of the big changes in one go! That would mean the next release would indeed still be paltry, in terms of what we are all really wanting.

I can certainly see this, and... well, let me type at myself and see if this is your thinking.

Leaderboards. Lots of people want them, so why not throw one together and slap it in an update?

Except, what if the Leaderboard code is partly tied in with the Serious Online Update, and a bunch of that code is "wired in" to the package? So then, why not copy out that code and get a quick Leaderboard done? Well, because then you have code bloat, because you have duplicate routine threads that will have to be undone when the Serious Online Update is ready, which is yet another patch.

Event Maker, how about that?

Except, what if it's the same deal, as a bunch of that code is written into the Serious Online Update, and in a form that makes the Event Maker useful in single player offline too? Releasing it solo would be the same headache as above. Or worse.

What if a lot of the stuff Kaz wants to do for us is part of a much more involved overall Spec II, which is a bunch of the code written as a package to make it more efficient and stable, so that we don't have so many random bugs, and the install, while large, will be smaller and tighter than it would be separately? And less patches, and keep in mind that the more patching you do, the more chances for problems, sometimes random and hard to replicate on a number of machines.

This might be it, and Griff may have explained a lot of silence. Lets hope, because GT6 really could use some new goodies pretty darn soon. And E3 is... how far off now?

 

[Zlork]

And E3 is... how far off now?

Don't expect anything from E3.

 

[Sederholm]

There are some interesting ideas on why the updates are so delayed presented in this thread.

I would accept the theory that they've removed things like the basic course maker and the old community features to make way for an even greater version. But what I am missing are timeframes.

If there was a date at which I could expect the course maker to be complete then I could accept that it wasn't in from the beginning. Well, I bought the game knowing it wasn't in so I accepted it from the beginning, only I thought, based on how it was presented, that this would be added shortly after release.

 

[Samus]

So "Everyone" was too broad. Fine, I'll retract that. It still covers those who DO say "gimme"

Are they not allowed to? They gave PD their money four months ago.

 

[JackC8]

Probably a (as in 1) vision car. Sometime in the next year. I think that Senna thing will be a little publicity event at PD and maybe we'll get a time trial with a Formula GT or something.

 

[Tenacious D]

Don't expect anything from E3.

I expect something. At the least, the Prologue hints dropped by SONY people seem too much like strategerie.

I've been meaning to say something for a while. I don't know what it's like at NeoGaf, but the signal to noise ratio here is getting pretty bad. Fans are going silent or being driven off by the complaining, which is growing increasingly unreasonable and mean spirited, and directed towards them too. And SONY, and PD, and right at Kaz.

Suppose the numbers really are bad for GT6. And you're a SONY guy or gal whose job it is to judge the market mood. And you come to essentially the "official" Gran Turismo site and get an eyeful of "This game sucks", "Message me when this thing is worth playing again", "I sold my copy already", "I'm done with Gran Turismo forever" and stuff. Every thread becomes a grouch thread, and a certain number end in fight locks. And while there are this handful of positive members like Zlork, eran0004, Griffith500, our beloved amar212 and myself, we're a small minority. You can't paint this mood in Bob Dole's humorous "undecided," and report your findings back to SONY.

Now, given that SONY needs cash badly to fund this new venture called PS4, and has been known to whittle things down in harsh money saving measures, even to releasing entire studios, if GT6 looks like a losing proposition, what do you think they would do?

If GT6 does get the coffin nailed shut, don't you guys think you hold a few of the hammers?

 

[Johnnypenso]

I expect something. At the least, the Prologue hints dropped by SONY people seem too much like strategerie.

I've been meaning to say something for a while. I don't know what it's like at NeoGaf, but the signal to noise ratio here is getting pretty bad. Fans are going silent or being driven off by the complaining, which is growing increasingly unreasonable and mean spirited, and directed towards them too. And SONY, and PD, and right at Kaz.

Suppose the numbers really are bad for GT6. And you're a SONY guy or gal whose job it is to judge the market mood. And you come to essentially the "official" Gran Turismo site and get an eyeful of "This game sucks", "Message me when this thing is worth playing again", "I sold my copy already", "I'm done with Gran Turismo forever" and stuff. Every thread becomes a grouch thread, and a certain number end in fight locks. And while there are this handful of positive members like Zlork, eran0004, Griffith500, our beloved amar212 and myself, we're a small minority. You can't paint this mood in Bob Dole's humorous "undecided," and report your findings back to SONY.

Now, given that SONY needs cash badly to fund this new venture called PS4, and has been known to whittle things down in harsh money saving measures, even to releasing entire studios, if GT6 looks like a losing proposition, what do you think they would do?

If GT6 does get the coffin nailed shut, don't you guys think you hold a few of the hammers?

As you and others are so fond to point out, GTP is but a pimple on an elephants butt when it comes to the fanbase for GT. The vast, vast, vast (98%?) of gamers never make it to forums like this and could care less what we say or do. You love to point this stuff out when it suits your case, then when it doesn't, you like to use GTP members as whipping boy's for driving PD to turn away from GT6 and towards GT7.

Having said that if I were Sony and GT6's sales were horrible which they are, this is the first place I'd look. You don't learn a damn thing from people going around praising the game and being positive the majority of the time, those people will by GT regardless as you have already said numerous times, you'll buy GT7 sight unseen come hell or high water. You teach Sony nothing about why this franchise has nosedived in one generation, it's the rest of us with our constant complaining and negativity that point out the flaws in the game, and share our frustrations freely, without having to worry about hurting someone's feelings 12,000 miles away. We, the grouchers and vociferous critics are the the exact people Sony/PD/Kaz should be listening to because we as a group have all the feedback they need to know why the series no longer appeals like it did to their rabid fanbase.

I've run several businesses over the years and I'm guessing you've always been an employee. Nothing wrong with that, but it's a completely different perspective. Yes I loved it when my staff and customers said wonderful things about me, but all I learned from them was what I was doing right, which I usually already knew. What I want/ed and needed to hear are the complaints, what we did wrong, the "moments of truth" where we failed customers and left them unhappy. Unhappy customers tell a lot more people about their negative experience than the happy ones do and they are the ones that teach you the most about your day to day operation.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

@Tenacious D and @Johnnypenso .....

Both of you are right, in your own way. PD has done some amazing work with the PS3, but it's a sucky system and horrible to program/work with. So, things haven't worked well, and when things don't work well, people complain.

And, yes, more info is gained from the "But I wanted...." than the "Keep it up, I love it." crowds. But that's not the point.

I, too expect to hear more. I don't think the only place will be E3 (though I expect a LOT to be said then), but more because we have some wonderful and powerful communication tools that are VERY widespread. (Note German (?) video last page or so).

However, there is a "Flush point" as a supervisor of mine once explained. You can sit something in a toilet, and it will be fine for the rest of its existence. But, if you get the water flowing, there is a point where it will all flush away. PD is extremely close to that point, and the (horrible) attitudes here are certainly indicating it.

I see Sony pushing just as hard as PD to get something out for the PS4. Not JUST because everyone wants ANYTHING for the PS4, but because PD needs to regain face. I really think that with the better system, GT7 and 8 will be tremendous. But first, the PS3 has to die. And that's going to take a bit, especially with this new game to support.

However, I see GT6 being built for both systems, and so a "port" (forasmuch as that's impossible in line by line code) being pretty easy and quick. We shall see.

I'm positive that Kaz has a good grasp on the situation, and that he (and the rest of PD) is/are trying his/their best. I just wish he could hire about 1000 people to get the work done at the pace these new, incredibly detailed and complex games require.

 

[machschnel]

If GT6 does get the coffin nailed shut, don't you guys think you hold a few of the hammers?

No, no, a thousand times no. Maybe if this had happened circa GT5 you'd have a point, but given the sheer amount of time involved (a whole console generation no less) and promis... sorry, visions discussed, the time is now.

Polyphony, as always, hold the one and only hammer. God knows what they are doing with it.

 

[Sederholm]

If GT6 does get the coffin nailed shut, don't you guys think you hold a few of the hammers?

I have to agree with @♦machschnel
Like hungry chicks crying for a meal we are anxiously awaiting the promised content.
And I can't say PD has shown much sign of being affected by the forum so I don't think there is an impact.
Our current options of communicating our opinions are rather binary and laggy: Buy or don't buy the next game.
What we need is some sort of feedback, why are there no updates, when can we expect them, what's keeping the new track... A reliable newsfeed on GT's homepage would be very welcome. Clearly the current regime of forum discussions isn't reaching PD.

What I'm calling for is for the news page to reflect the community better and sum up what people want.
I don't think the staff at PD goes through the forums but if there was an article that pointed out the fact that lots of content is missing from the game then I think it would get more attention.
The current flora of "articles" consist of copying the seasonal events, something that anyone who isn't interested in the game will not care about and someone who is interested will already know. Since they come and go I can see a point in documenting the events but I don't regard it as news really. The only original work currently on the main page is the Weekly Rewind, which, in my view, doesn't reflect the full spectrum of the community's opinions. And it's generally filled with ramblings about TV shows and other arbitrary topics.

I'm imagining content that reflects the opinions of GTP users.
The number of registered GTP users make out more than 10% of the 2M+ copies sold of GT6.
Not everyone has the game, not every account is active, but imagine the impact of actually telling PD what we think.
I'm imagining a serious poll with the ambition of reflecting the state of all users. A lot of players have given up hope and don't frequent the homepage, I say distribute it to every user's email.
The questions would cover everything from what cars and tracks are most popular and which features are missing to how PD handles deadlines and what made you leave or what's keeping you playing. This could answer questions like:

• Do we need to upgrade all the GT-R/3000GT/Miata models for GT7 or is it just annoying to have 500 cars that are the same?
• Can the communication of deadlines and why they are delayed be communicated better?

In the end this would be very valuable to PD but possibly anyone who wants to make a game about cars. Who benefits? Anyone who is interested in driving games.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

I like the second half of what you said. Well thought and well said. The first part, though..... PD DOES look at the many forums. I even heard that Kaz looks at his Twitter feed (which is overloaded with "I want...." stuff). But, you are right. There is very little communication FROM PD, and that just isn't right. I hope that petition gets us somewhere......

 

[Griffith500]

The thing about the communication, and this has been said many times, is that Sony are PD's publisher. That means they are in charge of the communication. I am baffled that, if this communication is truly so important, that Sony would not insist on doing it.

Of course, there's the idea that PD are so unreliable that anything Sony says might come back to bite them on their synergies, but surely Sony would not tolerate such a volatile development environment, either. Unless, they consider the "risk" of not communicating, of letting PD do what they need to do to get done what they want done, to be acceptable because of the relative value of the intended outcome. That would imply massive confidence on Sony's part for PD to deliver on that, within some time-frame (Sony seems to take the long view).

I just hope Sony know what they're doing...

 

[Tenacious D]

No, no, a thousand times no. Maybe if this had happened circa GT5 you'd have a point

So you think that a game which sold the usual 10.5 million is more likely to have been axed than a game which might have sold as little as 3 million? And SONY needs to decide how to move forward with the most profitability based on gamer acceptance, so my post has no foundation in reality? Are you sure about that?

@Sederholm
I get what you're saying, but not only is the main GT6 forum full of people's wants and wishes, there is also a big Reviews and Feedback Forum above this one, with a number of threads devoted to bugs, needed fixes and requested things for GT6. On top of that, there is a Suggestions subforum there with links to wanted cars, tracks and features. Have you been participating in any of them?

Maybe what would work is a moderated Open Roundtable Chat one or two nights a month, different times to work for America, Europe and Asia members, with a couple of mods/admins from GT Planet with grouch points that could be forwarded to someone at SCEA that Jordan knows. Maybe Jordan or a representative could give us some news that SCEA has okayed to pass along to us, so we aren't completely in the dark.

But having said that, what more would be discussed that hasn't been already? To death, no less. When Jordan learns something, he's always kind enough to give us a heads up on it. So really, while I think the Open Discussion would be a good idea, the best thing to do is to let SCEA know that the natives are restless and to scrounge up something to give us every couple of weeks or so, as long as it doesn't threaten any SONY state secrets.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

I have a feeling that some of the things Jordan knows he CAN'T pass on.... But, they usually get told soon, anyhow...

 

[machschnel]

So you think that a game which sold the usual 10.5 million is more likely to have been axed than a game which might have sold as little as 3 million? And SONY needs to decide how to move forward with the most profitability based on gamer acceptance, so my post has no foundation in reality? Are you sure about that?

I'll simplify it for you.

If the "hammering" (which includes bad sales) we are currently seeing took place when GT5 was released it would have been unfair and any punishment to Polyphony unjustifiable (to a point). Unfortunately, GT6 doesn't have that "first game on new hardware get out of jail free card", hence (at least most of) the complaints are now justified.

If coffin lid now gets shut, Polyphony are welding it closed from the inside.

 

[Sederholm]

@Sederholm
having said that, what more would be discussed that hasn't been already? To death, no less. When Jordan learns something, he's always kind enough to give us a heads up on it. So really, while I think the Open Discussion would be a good idea, the best thing to do is to let SCEA know that the natives are restless and to scrounge up something to give us every couple of weeks or so, as long as it doesn't threaten any SONY state secrets.

I agree that there's a lot of information and opinions available in the forums and in the comments. What I'm really missing is for someone to sit down and collate this into something useful. At this point it seems an insurmountable task to tackle so much information, but if the discussion was moderated, like round table discussions as you suggested, then different aspects could be summarised better. I think the main problem with forums is that information gets buried quickly and it's hard to keep up for an actor like PD if you don't have someone dedicated to dealing with that.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I agree that there's a lot of information an opinions available in the forums and in the comments. What I'm really missing is for someone to sit down and collate this into something useful. At this point it seems an insurmountable task to tackle so much information, but if the discussion was moderated, like round table discussions as you suggested, then different aspects could be summarised better. I think the main problem with forums is that information gets buried quickly and it's hard to keep up for an actor like PD if you don't have someone dedicated to dealing with that.

Shouldn't PD have a guy working full time, or at least part time, gathering information like this? I mean there are $100's of Million on the line here, not to mention what appears to be the rapidly fading loyalty of one of the most loyal gaming fanbases in video game history. All he would really have to do is be a member here, and keep an eye on what's hot in each forum. Piece of cake really.

If they really wanted a summary from GTP it could be done quite easily. Jordan meets with the Mods, either they gather the information in designated areas, perhaps recruiting subordinates to help with certain tasks. 1 week tops and you could have every single bug or complaint documented with a concerted effort. Easy.

 

[Sederholm]

Shouldn't PD have a guy working full time, or at least part time, gathering information like this? I mean there are $100's of Million on the line here, not to mention what appears to be the rapidly fading loyalty of one of the most loyal gaming fanbases in video game history. All he would really have to do is be a member here, and keep an eye on what's hot in each forum. Piece of cake really.

If they really wanted a summary from GTP it could be done quite easily. Jordan meets with the Mods, either they gather the information in designated areas, perhaps recruiting subordinates to help with certain tasks. 1 week tops and you could have every single bug or complaint documented with a concerted effort. Easy.

The impression I'm getting is that they're not very much in touch with us. They seem to only have one guy that speaks english. A lot of companies will actively post even in external forums, but I guess this is generally in other industries than gaming. That's why I think it would be nice to be able to present digistable portions of information.

My vision is a news page with headlines like:
RUF's most popular among the Standard models - Presenting the results of a player survey.
Community in outrage over delayed Red Bull X Challenge - Forums boil over as deadline passes. Accompanied by a graph of forum usage.

By lifting the current issues there's a better chance for PD to take it in. The first, about standard cars, could be used to see which are most worth upgrading to premium. The second underlines the current situation and proviedes a direct channel for PD, which is more accessible than replying to individual threads in the forum.

 

[Mulan]

well i didnt buy gt6 so i have a part in hammering nails. But actually PD or Sony chose it this way. If they just had let go of PS3 it would all be fine. Sure some would complain about not having money to buy new hardware but it would be the proper way to finish the ps3 era. Perhaps they are satisfied anyway, i have no clue what salegoals they had and they got decent reviews. But i bet GT7 is safe for some more years ahead. GT8 is another question, i hope gt7 is final ps4 game...i hope it gets that good!