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This is the discussion thread for a recent post on GTPlanet:
This article was published by Kyle Patrick (@SlipZtrEm) on August 21st, 2019 in the Automotive News category.
Me too but they have to be aesthetically pleasing though.I love fast wagons so much.
My that logic a BMW M3 or M4 makes no sense and is off purpose as well. A wagon has the same sort of dynamics as a saloon car or coupe version of one, unlike a higher up SUV or truck. You're looking at a weight difference of maybe 50-70 kilos compared to a saloon, which is the equivalent of carrying an extra passenger, and the centre of gravity is virtually identical to a saloon. Saying that ordinary saloon cars are not fit to be made into performance cars is a perfectly valid opinion, but SUVs and wagons have very different dynamics due to the fact that wagons have a much lower CoG, less ground clearance, and are generally set up for road use and driving dynamics while SUVs are set up to be able to go off road to some extent (depending on the SUV) and have a lot of effort put into making sure they're not liable to roll over. I agree that performance SUVs are dumb, but I love the idea of performance estate because it has the same sort of basic dynamics as a saloon or coupe but with far more cargo capacity and usability. Apart from appearance, availability, and maybe cost, I personally see no reason not to buy an estate over its saloon variant, because the driving experience will be virtually identical but you have a more usable car....that thing is - like any modern day Audi - ugly as hell.
Also, I never understood the idea of a "performance trimmed" wagon or SUV/Pickup. It's not that I dislike wagons (I'm myself driving one) or off-road cars, it's just that it's completely off purpose to give them a track performance trim. They are way too heavy for enjoyable sporty driving, they have bad weight distribution and a bad center of gravity. Actually, I can enjoy big cars, but only when they are built on their actual purpose.
I agree that performance SUVs are dumb
I personally see no reason not to buy an estate over its saloon variant, because the driving experience will be virtually identical but you have a more usable car.
Driving a near-identical wagon and sedan back-to-back, with a large dog in the back, I've determined that a sedan can be somewhat safer and more practical for its ability to isolate cargo (eg. heavy objects, alluring-smelling grocery bags) from the cabin.Apart from appearance, availability, and maybe cost, I personally see no reason not to buy an estate over its saloon variant, because the driving experience will be virtually identical but you have a more usable car.
As the owner of two wagons that have to transport a 32 kg power assisted wheelchair around I'd say that's bollocks. Modern wagons have so many accessories these days to overcome all of these perceived issues, from cargo barriers (for heavy objects) to cargo covers (for stopping alluring-smelling grocery bags) and cargo nets (for small delicate objects), all of which we have for both cars and some of it was standard equipment. One even has shopping bag hooks in the back so they don't move around.Driving a near-identical wagon and sedan back-to-back, with a large dog in the back, I've determined that a sedan can be somewhat safer and more practical for its ability to isolate cargo (eg. heavy objects, alluring-smelling grocery bags) from the cabin.
You can put your dog in the back seat of a wagon as well .Our dog is much safer in the Legacy than in any of the three wagons we've had, and smaller shopping trips are a simpler experience.
With the little difference that an M4 weighs around 1700-1800 kg, whereas the RS6 is over 2000 kg.My that logic a BMW M3 or M4 makes no sense and is off purpose as well. A wagon has the same sort of dynamics as a saloon car or coupe version of one, unlike a higher up SUV or truck. You're looking at a weight difference of maybe 50-70 kilos compared to a saloon, which is the equivalent of carrying an extra passenger, and the centre of gravity is virtually identical to a saloon. Saying that ordinary saloon cars are not fit to be made into performance cars is a perfectly valid opinion, but SUVs and wagons have very different dynamics due to the fact that wagons have a much lower CoG, less ground clearance, and are generally set up for road use and driving dynamics while SUVs are set up to be able to go off road to some extent (depending on the SUV) and have a lot of effort put into making sure they're not liable to roll over. I agree that performance SUVs are dumb, but I love the idea of performance estate because it has the same sort of basic dynamics as a saloon or coupe but with far more cargo capacity and usability. Apart from appearance, availability, and maybe cost, I personally see no reason not to buy an estate over its saloon variant, because the driving experience will be virtually identical but you have a more usable car.
My point is that the M4 is based on a saloon car just like a wagon is. If a wagon is inherently a bad platform for a performance car due to centre of gravity like you said, then so is a coupe or saloon, like every M3 ever, or every Subaru WRX or Mitsubishi Evo.With the little difference that an M4 weighs around 1700-1800 kg, whereas the RS6 is over 2000 kg.
I agree the M4 is too heavy for my taste though. Like so many modern day cars.
I'm familiar with the routine of securing things, and removing accessories or improvisations to make room for certain loads/tasks. I don't mind, but I also did not mind rediscovering the convenience of skipping that with one of our cars. We only need one two-box vehicle.As the owner of two wagons that have to transport a 32 kg power assisted wheelchair around I'd say that's bollocks. Modern wagons have so many accessories these days to overcome all of these perceived issues, from cargo barriers (for heavy objects) to cargo covers (for stopping alluring-smelling grocery bags) and cargo nets (for small delicate objects), all of which we have for both cars and some of it was standard equipment. One even has shopping bag hooks in the back so they don't move around.
The baby car seat anchor points over the back seat of my sedan are convenient and effective for his tether + padded harness, and he is a bit more cocooned in there.You can put your dog in the back seat of a wagon as well .
Modern wagons have so many accessories these days to overcome all of these perceived issues, from cargo barriers (for heavy objects) to cargo covers (for stopping alluring-smelling grocery bags) and cargo nets (for small delicate objects), all of which we have for both cars and some of it was standard equipment. One even has shopping bag hooks in the back so they don't move around.
There's really not much difference in the cocooning or tethering with my cars due to the cargo barrier. You can also get these for our Subaru. They really cover all the bases.I'm familiar with the routine of securing things, and removing accessories or improvisations to make room for certain loads/tasks. I don't mind, but I also did not mind rediscovering the convenience of skipping that with one of our cars. We only need one two-box vehicle.
The baby car seat anchor points over the back seat of my sedan are convenient and effective for his tether + padded harness, and he is a bit more cocooned in there.
I haven't had to have a large amount of fuel in the back (that's what roadside assist is for ) but everything else has been fine odour wise. We only ever have to carry a small amount of lawnmower fuel and that's far easier to secure in the wagon than in my sedan (BTW we carry it inside the cabin (cocooned in old towels on the floor) in the sedan because it's easier to keep from rolling around than in the boot).All of those accessories are designed to compensate for the problems with wagons. And still, throw a gas can back there and see how they do. Wagons have advantages (obviously) but also disadvantages.
Ours incorporates plywood sheets to support and distribute 85lbs. of dog over the footwell, and I added a body pillow to fill the seat buckets and cover the seatbelt receivers. 👍 Since it went into the sedan and not the wagon, I can keep it strapped in, leaving the wagon open for any need.You can also get these for our Subaru. They really cover all the bases.
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...but then I also said this, and a year later I found my Legacy. Before that I had figured another wagon or a 5-door Impreza would be better for the dog, but now I like my current setup better, as I've explained.After owning and living with a wagon: when I see a sedan, I see a car with a chunk of interior space cut out of the back end for no particularly beneficial reason. It's kinda weird.
This wasn't entirely directed towards wagons themselves. My point was I don't get why such things like wagons and SUVs receive street performance trims. And honestly, you can say what you want, but an RS6 Avant is driving like a tank compared to a 4C, Cayman, 911, Elise or 86/BRZ etc.My point is that the M4 is based on a saloon car just like a wagon is. If a wagon is inherently a bad platform for a performance car due to centre of gravity like you said, then so is a coupe or saloon, like every M3 ever, or every Subaru WRX or Mitsubishi Evo.
This wasn't entirely directed towards wagons themselves. My point was I don't get why such things like wagons and SUVs receive street performance trims. And honestly, you can say what you want, but an RS6 Avant is driving like a tank compared to a 4C, Cayman, 911, Elise or 86/BRZ etc.
...because people want the extra performance combined with the advantages of wagons or SUVs. What's not to understand? They don't want an Elise. Or a motorcycle for that matter.
15 years ago I would have thought this was awesome and lusted after it.
Now I just think the wheels are too big, the windows are too small, and the front end is too ugly. And it will be about $20,000 too expensive for what it is. And I love fast wagons - I just took a 5-hour train ride to buy my V60, because there weren't any local that were outfitted the way mine is.