PS3 Paranoia

Discussion in 'Console & PC Gaming' started by DeeEmmSee, Jun 17, 2009.

  1. DeeEmmSee

    DeeEmmSee

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    I have recently purchased a second hand PS3, 60gb English Version, This has since become my pride and joy to to the awesome games and spectacular graphics that go with it, but I have also got quite a lot of ps2 games - 71 of them in fact, im just wondering does prolonged use of ps2 games on the PS3 do any sort of damage to the laser or anything else for that matter.

    The reason I ask this is because I have heard about some of the 60gb consoles turining faulty and Sony refusing to replace them anymore, I am just asking advice beacuse I am going to do the Nurburgring 24hr endurance race on GT4, and dont want to risk damaging it by leaving b-spec to do all the driving ( I seriously cant be bothered racing that track for 24hrs for one reason - I hate the bloody track.)
     
  2. zed300

    zed300

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    A mate has got a 60GB and it has been faulty after a couple of years use, but he has had no problem with Sony fixing his twice.

    I haven't heard about ps2 games being the problem though???
     
  3. barryl85

    barryl85

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    Do not fear!

    *This is your friend right here - http://continuousplay.co.uk/

    Its basicly like extended warranty support for the PS3 (from sony) for £5 a month, if yours ever breaks just sign up and you can claim for a replacement right away!

    I had a PS3 blu ray drive die on me and one of my friends too in the same week, i bought a brand new 80gb model and sold the broken one on, i then learned of the continuous play and both of the broken PS3's (60gb launch model and a 40gb model) were replaced within two days of claiming. they just swap your broken one with a refurbed or new console at your door!!

    *Website seems to be down at the moment i'm sure it will be running again soon though!
     
  4. ASH32

    ASH32

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    Sony will replace any PS3 that becomes faulty, however they will charge you around £150 for doing so. :crazy: They used to swap faulty ones for a refurb one for free, I had a launch 60gb that got the YLOD ( it was nearly two years old ) and they swaped it for another 60gb refurb,:tup: but they have changed their policy and they now charge for the service. :tdown:

    If you can afford it I would suggest you get continuous play that barryl85 mentioned. I don't really want to worry you but I am seeing more and more people complaining on forums about their PS3's dying, :nervous: the main problems are blu-ray drive failure:ouch: and YLOD:ouch: ( which is apparantly because of overheating, although I don't believe that ).
     
  5. Robin

    Robin Premium

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    I personally would limit the amount you use the backward compatibility on the 60GB because you might wear down the laser assembly which on this particular model was bizzarely designed. If you have a PS2 lying around I would still use that but for a session on your PS3 once in a while it should be ok.

    The only problem with returning your console to Sony to fix is that you will probably not get back the console you sent in. You will either get a refurb or get a model which is considered higher in the range (like an 80GB), both which I think is kinda a raw deal, especially if you take care of your console and you dont have a warranty anymore.

    Although the 60GB's were the best built the laser assembly design was somewhat weaker than the later 40GB's. This is why you hear about more drive failures on the 60 than other faults such as YLOD.

    Robin.
     
  6. XTR-KingTuna

    XTR-KingTuna

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    keep it vertical to keep it cool, and you'll be fine. i have an original launch, 60 gig, and it stays on for days at a time with no problems. like i said, stand it up so it'll cool better (all the heat goes straight up and out the vents, rather than forced out sideways by the fans) and vacuum out the vents regularly (i do it once a week)...you'll see 'em gather dust.
     
  7. XTR-KingTuna

    XTR-KingTuna

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    oh yea, and i've so far completed 8 or 9 24 hour races in realtime (GT4) on it, with no probs ;)
     
  8. ASH32

    ASH32

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    I have reason to suspect the YLOD is not an overheating problem though, you see my PS3 was fine when I turned it off one night, the next morning however it wouldn't turn on ( YLOD ). Not sure how it overheated while it was off. :confused:

    Oh and XTR-KingTuna, i'll tell you before a mod does, you shouldn't double post, especially only a minute apart, in future use the edit button please.
     
  9. DeeEmmSee

    DeeEmmSee

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    Okwell thanks for your input, I will be setting my PS2 back up tonight, and use my PS3 solely for PS3 games, as for standing it up, this unfortunately is impossible to to my tv stand and set up ( it would stand too tall to fit anywhere ), and this YLOD, at a risk of sounding dumb - what exactly is that?.
     
  10. danjama

    danjama

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    yellow light of death (hard drive i think)
     
  11. Nigma

    Nigma

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    Personally, I don't believe a lick of the overheating excuse Sony has given us for the "YLOD" Now, I have no facts to prove other wise execpt for the fact I own 2 ps3s one of which stays on Life with Playstation doing folding@home 24/7. My first ps3 was the 60 gig which had the "Grand Theft Auto IV glitch" where everything worked fine an played all my games execpt GTAIV, sent it back and got a new "or" refurbed 80gig ps3. I bought a 40gig an upgraded it to a 250gig while waitin for my other one to return from Sony. Before I sent it to Sony I had roughly 750-800 work units completed. I had lost about 500 before that with one of those major updates I think when it was changed from folding@home to Life with Playstation. Since I got the new/refurbed 80gig back its been running folding@home almost 24/7(almost 2000 work units as of right now). Since I use the upgraded 40gig to play on. This tells me its got to be something other then "overheating" which causes this YLOD. This is just my opinion as of now, Because its the only thing we can really do right now if Sony is just gonna say nothing more then the YLOD is from "overheating."



    1 ps3 being cut on and played for a few hours a day and sometimes running folding@home at night.

    1 ps3 running folding@home 24/7 which if my memory is correct uses almost all the ps3s power thus making it run hot.
     
  12. R1600Turbo

    R1600Turbo Premium

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    What's your energy bill like? :)
     
  13. Shokz

    Shokz

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    I would think it shouldn't be too terrible - some people leave their PCs on 24/7 and a good PC will use more power than a PS3 does.
     
  14. Mad Matt

    Mad Matt

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    I'd be curious to know how reading a PS2 disk could break a PS3, any more than reading a DVD or a Blu-ray disk!

    I'm also curious about the real failure rate of PS3s. Last time Scaff posted some non-hear-say data (can't remember the details) the failure rate was excellent for a piece of electronic kit.

    Of course, as Dickens pointed out many years ago, the stats don't matter if its yours that's broken :-(
     
  15. barryl85

    barryl85

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    Im not 100% sure but if i remember correctly PS2 games even broke the PS2 laser, the blue discs im talking about!!

    Oh and it seems like the failure rates of the PS3 are rising quite sharp, I myself am a victim of it, blu ray drive stopped reading all discs (not blaming any particular disc as it just stopped reading all kinds of discs)
     
  16. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Nope that was just a cheap laser assembly that caused the problem with the PS2, they simply wore out.


    I've highlighted the important word here, seems. No actual evidence has come to surface yet that the PS3 is any more or less reliable than is the norm for electronic equipment. Yes the more than are sold, means that you will hear about more that fail (and people rarely post to say a piece of kit is working fine). However as a percentage of units sold, the failure rate has not been shown to be increasing or unaceptable.


    Regards

    Scaff
     
  17. Robin

    Robin Premium

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    A DVD/Blu Ray movie is read for the most part linearly whereas for games the laser assembly has to jog to certian parts of the disc when required and this process puts way more strain on parts.

    Real / reported failure rates are useless figures as they are only ones released by Sony based on units they have recieved. They do not take into account those who have not fixed it or fixed it themselves or with a 3rd party.

    At that the truth!

    Basically the PS3 is much more reliable compared to the 360 but when compared to other electronics due to its complexity I feel (from watching these issues develop over the past few years) that its failure rate is higher than average.

    Sure this isnt 100% evidence but ive heard plenty enough around to see that there are problems! Even here at GTP there have been many failures.

    Actually it was the later made PS2's which had cheap laser assemblies. Made in Japan models which were around for about 2 years after launch were very well made. I have 2 of them and they have never skipped a beat! I wish the lasers in the PS3 were as well made!

    Robin.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2009
  18. Shokz

    Shokz

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    Yeah, i've had my PS2, what, 7 years now? Never once had a problem with it, not that i use it much any more, it's still nice to revisit a couple of the greats ;)
     
  19. Jay

    Jay Premium

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    *monotone voice* My PS3 peice of kit is working fine.

    :p


    Yeah I have a almost launch PS2 and it got some rough treatment (someone walked through the cords and it went flying a couple times) which even broke the case but I have had no problems with it's function.
     
  20. jgda9rs

    jgda9rs

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    i have an 80gb model, and after two years and the latest patch, it stopped reading discs.
    i've tried calling the sony hotline for the ps3 and all i ever get is the annoying voice of a stupid girl, telling my to hold the line. i think i'm just gonna go to a sony store and get them to deal with it themselves.
     
  21. Mad Matt

    Mad Matt

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    I don't think that's really a factor. I think what you're saying is that for a game the head has to move further (read some data from the inside of the disk, then back to the outside and so on...) as it has to move more often. If that was a significant factor I'd expect computer CD/DVD devices to have a much higher failure rate than those in home entertainment systems. That doesn't appear to be the case. Having discussed this with clients running thousands of PCs/laptops the CD/DVD failure rate is almost zero, even for those who do a lot of burning.

    As people have said, those who post generally do so because they've got something to say.

    Let me be the second to go against that trend and say that my two year old PS3 has never had a problem and neither has my slightly pre-launch PS2 (I had a friend at Sony at the time :-) ). I think I've only had one server last anywhere near as well as my PS2, I usually see hardware faults appear around the four year mark. As for software problems in Windows..... don't get me started......
     
  22. Robin

    Robin Premium

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    Yeah I would go to the Sony centre, you get far more info there and also you can speak to a real person.

    You can't compare the PS3's laser assembly to CD/DVD devices simply because they dont use 2 lasers! Thats like comparing 10 year old perfected technology with new far more complex components.

    As for the wear and tear when reading a game the laser will have to jump to one spot then another and so on many times in a few seconds and because the PS3's laser assembly is so delicate it causes problems. A movie will slowly be read from the inside out with no 'jogging'.

    Robin.
     
  23. Mad Matt

    Mad Matt

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    I'm not sure that argument holds water. Firstly I think there's less movement than you think. When you write the games disk the data will tend to be in large serial chunks, not like a fragmented NTFS HDD.

    Even if it were, the mechanism for moving the head is not any different to that moving a traditional DVD reader.

    However, I think your main point is that the head itself is more fragile, so I imagine you are arguing that the G-force applied during head movement is having a detrimental effect on the head. I suppose it's possible but it being newer technology doesn't necessitate it being more fragile, after all it's mostly just a different frequency of light and it isn't capable of writing, unlike most computer devices.

    The only way we could find out would be to see of the few people who've had a head failure, were they the ones who played more blu-ray disk based games (I suppose we'd have to exclude games like MGS4 as they install themselves to the HDD, probably in nice serialised IO), watched less films and downloaded less games.

    I just did a quick search and can't see a large number for people complaining about standalone Blu-ray disk readers failing so it would have to be a fault particular to the PS3 head. I had thought they used the same head in their standalone readers..... could be wrong......
     
  24. Robin

    Robin Premium

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    Actually there is loads of movement, I have seen it with my own eyes!, particularly on open world games where the data cannot be accessed in chunks. The game has to draw different assets from the disc on the fly and it can't possibly know where your going to go or what your going to do next. I have heard and seen violent 'chugging' of the laser assembly as it goes back and forth. Also some games are badly coded making the strain even greater.

    With games which have levels and scripted events this is not so much of an issue as most information is cached to the memory.

    Although its true that the track mechanism is not all that different to other readers its the laser and its optics (the head) which are more fragile. The changing of direction and G-forces do play a part in messing with the components in the lasers assembly. This is why Sony changed the design in the 40GB.

    You have to understand that its NOT ONE LASER! Its two lasers working at 2 different light frequencies and as they both use the same optics (on the 60GB) its very complicated inside the assembly. Its not about whether it can write disks its about the nature of the head.

    The point here is more that the PS3's blu ray drive is the cheapest you can buy, when you compare the price to other standalone blu ray players there is a major price difference because those use far higher quality components and also dont read games which cause the most strain.

    I am one such person. I only use my console for Blu Ray games and it suffered a drive failure (head failure). As I stated above standalone players dont fail because they cost double the PS3 and do far less!

    There is a slew of people suffering blu ray drive failures all over the internet so I don't know how you searched. If you look for the 'spinning loading icon' issue you will see the problem is everywhere!

    I do understand what your saying Mad Matt but in the case of the PS3's laser design other optical players (such as CD/DVD etc) bare no resemblance.

    Robin.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2009
  25. Mad Matt

    Mad Matt

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    Interesting points. I think what I'm trying to say is that having complex components on the head doesn't necessitate them being a point of failure. Yes the PS3 Blu-ray unit has got two lasers, but then a 1980s ICL mainframe with CAFS (Content Addressable Filestore) had a processor on the head so you could offload parts of queries onto it, plus it involved much more random access than a Blu-ray.

    The head failures may well have nothing to do with movement, it may be heat causing cracks, or dry joints or .........

    I'm impressed that you've had the PS3 apart enough to watch the heads move around! I've only heard mine, which don't seem too busy during the games I play, but there you go. Perhaps I should play more :-)

    I've seen, from searching, that there are quite a lot of complaints about head failures (disk read problems to be precise) on PS3s, but not on Sony's other Blu-ray players. I found some references to the failure rate still being at or around 3%, which is apparently good to normal

    Anecdotally, of the thirty or so real life people I know with PS3s, none have had problems with the Blu-ray disk drive. One had a problem with overheating if he ran the PS3 for a long period in an enclosed HiFi cabinet.....

    Anyway, that's more than enough from me on this subject!
     
  26. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Sorry Robin, but standalone Blu-ray players are now, for the vast majority, cheaper than the PS3. The average entry price being around the £200 mark and a lot are available for around the £150 price point. These are not old stock machine either, rather current generation machines.

    Its also completely incorrect to state that they don't fail as well, a friend of mine runs a Hi-Fi/AV business and has had a number of stand-alone's back in with a range of issues. The failure rate for them is around the norm for electrical equipment, just as the PS3's is.



    Sony have sold approx 20 million PS3's, even with a normal fall out rate for electrical goods (around 3%), that would still mean that 600,000 had failed. Which is more than enough to give you a hell of a lot of internet traffic, while still remaining well within 'normal' failure rates.

    Just as an example of this, when I worked for Renault UK we had a parts picking accuracy rate of 99.2% (from the main National Distribution Centre), which was industry leading at the time. However as we shipped out 3,000 lines a day, that still means that half the dealer network got at least one wrong item delivered a week. Something they moaned like hell about, but once you get into high volumes even the smallest error rate starts to look like a problem.

    Volume of web traffic is not an indicator of how reliable anything is, one because you have to look at the failure rates as a percentage of units sold and secondly because people will moan when something breaks, but not when it is working fine.

    The problem is not 'everywhere' at all.


    Regards

    Scaff
     
  27. Robin

    Robin Premium

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    Even if the price of standalone Blu Ray players has dropped they dont have to work anywhere near as hard as the PS3 does because they dont have to read games which makes them, ok not bullet proof, but far more reliable.

    Although I appreciate what your saying Scaff I dont agree with some points. Firstly reported failure rates are never a good indication or real failure rates as some people dont fix them or take them back to Sony. Also the PS3 was supposed to have a lower failure rate than 3%.

    I have never had anything electronic fail on me ever. Even complicated things. Despite there being an allowance for failure it should not occur in any device if it has had minium use. It is also a false representation of what a product is supposed to be capable of. In the case of the PS3 is should be able to be used for all types of media, be on 24h's a day and last 10 years.

    You would also expect that any of these 'faulty %' consoles would be weeded out in the first years warranty. Units failing in considerable numbers after that period prove there is something wrong with the design. I am suprised with this generations consoles that the quality has been so poor Wii not included because thats older technology.

    This PS3 problem is a growing issue. One which might be deep seated in the design of the console which is why there have been so many revisions to the hardware since it has been released.

    Robin.
     
  28. superwally

    superwally

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    Every now and then I am reminded how lucky those of you in the UK are to have that kind of warranty to fall back on, the last time I checked nothing like the continuousplay deal was available in the US. I hate you all just a tiny bit for that.

    I have an early 60GB model that I bought on ebay 16 months ago, so who knows how much time I have left with it. No problems yet.
     
  29. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Sorry but posting this and then this.......

    ......has just made me chuckle quite a bit.

    So reported failure rates which come from manufacturers, independent warranty providers and retailers are not a good indication of real failure rates; however your completely anecdotal statement on stand-alone players is?


    I've worked in electronic retail (hi-fi, AV and Photographic) and know full well how often electronic equipment can fail, that you personally have never had an item fail means nothing at all.

    I've never had a single problem with a new car (and during the years I worked for Renault I had over twenty), but would not attempt to use that as proof that Renault's products are 100% reliable and never fail.

    To believe that a device should never fail at all (which is exactly what you have just claimed) quite frankly shocks me, that is a totally unrealistic view to hold. Let me ask, are you 100% infallible in everything you do?



    Yes failure rates will generally be higher in the first year of a products life (and even greater in the first few months), which is why Q&A sample rates and failed unit removal from production lines are much more intensive at the start of a products life. Its not uncommon for the first production batch of an electronic device to undergo 100% QA (so every machine is checked and tested), however as full production is ramped up that becomes impossible to do, however refinements in the production process normally balance these two factors out.

    You are also, once again, forgetting that even if failure rates drop as time goes on, if you are selling more units the perceived problem will increase.

    An example.

    In the first year you produce 1 million units of item X, and has a lifetime failure rate of 5%, that's 50,000 units that fail.

    However by year three you are now producing 10 million units a year and have managed to get your lifetime failure rate down to 2.5%, that's 250,000.

    So despite halving the failure rate of product X, you now have five times the number of units that will fail hitting the market in year three than you did in year one. That's five times the number of people potentially screaming blue murder on the web from year three.

    Now would you rather buy product X in year one or three? In year three product X is far less likely to fail than it is in year one, yet up to five times the number of people are screaming that its not working (most of them on the web).

    Simply put the number of people moaning about a product needs to be taken into account with a lot more information, and that must always include the failure rates and units sold.

    Even if product X had got its failure rate to 1% in the third year, it would still have twice the number of failed units compared to the first year.


    You are aware that many reasons can exist as to why hardware gets revised, one of the most common is that of cost reduction.

    I'm not saying that reliability is not a factor involved in this, of course one of the aims over time is to improve a design in all ways. That however reduces the lifetime failure rate of the product, not increases it.

    What we are seeing here is quite normal for electronic hardware, and taking anecdotal evidence off the web of people who simply post that they have had a machine fail is about as far from a reliable source as you can get.

    Which is exactly why your comment about manufacturer/independent failure rate figures makes me chuckle. No they are not going to 100% accurate, but they are still far, far more accurate and reliable that using the 'a bloke on a web-site posted' method you are using.

    Here is one of many example you can get for current gen failure rates.....

    http://www.gamegrep.com/news/7439-new_reports_on_the_3_console_failure_rates/


    .....and simply googling Console failure rates will get you many more. Almost all of which give the same basic figures. 360 at around 16%, PS3 and Wii at around 3%, these are figures from returned units from retail chains and are about as accurate as you are going to get.

    Your entire argument is based around the number of people who have posted comments on the web, and I've already shown just how misleading that can be.


    Regards

    Scaff
     
  30. barryl85

    barryl85

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    Yes its the best figure you are going to get but fact of the matter is because this issue is happening outside warranty period and people know how expensive it is to send electronic equipment in for repair - they just leave it gathering dust, and this seems to be the case with the PS3 from when i was faced with a useless PS3 that couldnt read discs.


    Good point, electronic devices are hit and miss for me, some have never failed in countless years, some have failed whilst under warranty but the most expensive electronic devices i have owned always fail after warranty period

    I paid £900 for a 32" Samsung LCD TV that failed 3 months after the 12 months warranty and it was going to cost more than £500 to get it fixed and by this time i could buy a brand new Samsung LCD 32" TV for £500. End result it went in a skip.

    PS3 5 months out of warranty stopped reading discs.

    Point is though, even though there is statistically a failure rate of 3% I can tell you right now this will be rising, more and more people are discovering this fault everyday and its always consoles over 12 months warranty.


    Renault and reliable should never be used in the same sentence. Please do not start me on Renault.

    Why 'should' anyone expect something to fail? I dont go out and buy something with the thought in mind "oh well it will pack in at some point so i'll just continue to spend this £900 of my hard earned cash."

    I expect reliability because its not impossible, thats why i always buy Honda's.

    But the PS3 was reliable in its 1st year and was regarded as an extremely reliable piece of electronic equipment, thats why people cannot accept that this blu ray drive issue is happening after its first year and are standing their ground saying its normal when quite frankly its not.

    That is a good example but it seems that you are ignoring the fact that this is a growing issue. No one knows why they are failing or how many consoles it will affect. I wouldnt be backing up Sony's reliability just yet as this could escalate rapidly. Sony obviously are trying to keep this issue behind closed doors as they do not want the same reputation the 360 has had.


    No one can argue with the facts and figures as people will constantly frown upon you for doing so and think you are being idiotic but you are ignoring the fact that me and Robin. are that guy you desribed -> 'a bloke on a web-site posted'.

    We are real people, real examples, not a manufacturers statistic because they dont even know about our console failure because there repair costs are a joke.

    I can see this arguments from both sides of the fence. Yes facts and figures dont lie but speaking from experience they dont show you the whole picture either.

    I would be very angry if it was a launch model i owned that failed ( i already owned one and sold it on due to boredom then i realised i was an idiot and had to buy a 40gb one ) cost me £425 on day 1 and if that failed sony are looking for around £100 just to take a look at whats wrong with it!!! Never mind money i spent on blu ray movies and games and accessories (around £300 - £400) which suddenly become useless.



    Oh and the link posted shouldn't be counted i mean its over a year old

    "New reports on the 3 console failure rates. February 14, 2008"

    Infact i cant find a single failure rate statistic for this year (maybe someone else could find it but i had no luck).
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2009