Race Soft Tires....

[911_RS]

So no aids and Racing Softs makes the car go as fast as it possibly can as long as the driver can stay on the limit without crossing it = skill.

And that is the crux of the biscuit......

 

[Zelvik]

So no aids and Racing Softs makes the car go as fast as it possibly can as long as the driver can stay on the limit without crossing it = skill.

And that is the crux of the biscuit......

Then again limiting tyres is something that gets done regularly in real racing series. Look at F1, they altered the tyre regulations endless times during the past few years, adjusting width, wheter you were allowed to use slicks or use a profiled tyre and they also regulated the softness/hardness factor of the tyres - they actually went as far as regulating that you had to use both allowed and reglemented types during a race. So its not like this sort of limitation is something that cant be found outside of GT5 online lobbies.

 

[JetJaguar2000]

As others have pointed out, using hard tires makes online races more interesting because they still allow for the possibility of most drivers making a mistake during the race. This in turn allows for more passing, more intensity, and more possibility for a "come from behind" win.

Speaking for GT500 cars, which is what I mostly race online, I would say that using soft tires negates the possibility of anyone of average skill or above from making a significant error without a serious lapse of attention. This means the races are pretty much decided by first couple of turns. I think the problem is that there are rarely enough drivers in a room good enough to push soft tires to the limit, so they just end up hiding inconsistencies in any driver's laps. Everyone is just on cruise control at their given pace.

Hard tires have tolerances that are much easier to reach or exceed for a wider range of drivers. This makes the races more dynamic, as the drivers really need to be consistent to stay ahead. No cruise control.

As far as I'm concerned, it's just a question of setting up the regulations in a way that makes sense for the range of skill in the room. It sounds like I'm saying soft tires are "too easy," but it's more that most drivers aren't good enough to race them at the edge. And, basically, for a race to be interesting, as many of the participants should be racing near the edge as possible. It's about finding a sweet spot that is appropriate for most of the people most of the time.

 

[qczhao]

I apologise for my sudden intervention yet I cannot resist myself pointing out a logical flaw in what you have said.

Basically, you are suggesting that purely because the laptimes in game are faster than in real the game is therefore unrealistic.

But if you think carefully, there are many factors besides possible unrealistic tire grip levels that result in this scenario. The most basic one being - drivers online have no fear for spinning out or crashing, they can take corners at full speed without worrying that a small rock or bump on the road flip their car and cause a fatal accident.

Take the ring as an example - have a look at this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPd0ATqvoJM&feature=related

Turn on the sound and listen to how early the driver breaks when approaching corners. Have you ever seen a driver in real life take the Flugplatz - Schwedenkreuz at full speed? I haven't, but when racing in online lobbies I very often get hit because people never slow down when approaching the left turn leading to the Aremberg (in fact the slight right turn before the left turn).

Of course, the above is said with the qualification that I've never driven a race car. Neither have most users that have posted in this thread, I believe.

SO my conclusion is that this discussion is pretty much illusory, if you want to race with RH or SH or even CH, then find one lobby that suits your taste, there is no harm in doing that, but to say that doing so offers a more realistic experience is pretty much self-deception. It probably is more akin to driving your every day car - that I don't dispute, but do you (generic term) really know how the tires behave in a real GT500 race car?

Sure, I will concede that on some tracks drivers will leave a safety margin which costs them time. The Nordschleife is a great example of that. However, on modern GP style tracks like Nurburgring GP/F, Fuji etc there are a lot of runoffs.

I have done some track driving myself (only in an MX-5, but it was stripped and track prepped) around circuits like Brands Hatch and Snetterton. Once you are concentrating so tightly on getting the right line and braking points and so on, I have to say I did not feel afraid - I had the tail of the MX5 step out on me at 70-80 mph and you just correct it without thinking and carry on.

Now obviously I'm not claiming to be a great driver (in fact, I know I could improve by a lot), but I'm just saying the whole "fear factor" probably isn't as pronounced as some people make it out to be, especially if racing cars is what you do for a living.

And of course, I don't have a clue how GT500 cars behave on it's tyres. But obviously when we run the GT500 league we want to make it as close to the real thing as it gets, and the one way we have of doing that is by a direct laptime comparison.

Sure there will be differences between the game and real life, but that doesn't mean we can't try to get as close to it as possible, by controlling what factors that under our control and trusting PD's physics engine to be accurate enough that the factors not under our control are not so important to the end result.

 

[GTP_FastM3]

That said: the limit is the limit.. No driving aid in the world (exept SRF ) will make a car get more grip, or change the laws of physics, hence why a car is faster without any aids, as long as you are a skilled enough driver to always drive within that limit and not over it.

I disagree with this part of your statement. In Real Life a very good TCS is better than any human. That is why they tried to take it out of Formula 1. It's the same with ABS. Computers and mechanical components can react faster than a human in every situation. F1 drivers are arguably the most skilled on earth and even they couldn't best a computer controlled TCS.

 

[RamoSapiens]

As an older player it always makes me smile when the kids here pretends that they are real race car drivers, and try to simulate it all to be just like in the real world.I think its pity that PD didn´t simulate the crashes well enough. It would be more realistic if You cut your legs when driving out, and have to be injured a few months unable to enter the game. Or in the worst case your car gets burnin and you´ll be out.Only way to continue playin is to start it all over again. It would also be hilarious if U get a tire puncture after 23.50 hours of 24h nurburgring endurance,resultatin in crash and burn because of a rabbit running cross the track. After all the posts I have read here in this past month, it wouldn´t surprise me at all if some kids here actually put theyre helmets and racin gloves on entering a online race

 

[BlacqueJacques]

As an older player it always makes me smile when the kids here pretends that they are real race car drivers, and try to simulate it all to be just like in the real world.I think its pity that PD didn´t simulate the crashes well enough. It would be more realistic if You cut your legs when driving out, and have to be injured a few months unable to enter the game. Or in the worst case your car gets burnin and you´ll be out.Only way to continue playin is to start it all over again. It would also be hilarious if U get a tire puncture after 23.50 hours of 24h nurburgring endurance,resultatin in crash and burn because of a rabbit running cross the track. After all the posts I have read here in this past month, it wouldn´t surprise me at all if some kids here actually put theyre helmets and racin gloves on entering a online race

I know online I mentioned in a few races how nice it was that PD did not include deer on the Nordschleife; or wet leaves

 

[CarolinaBlue704]

I disagree with this part of your statement. In Real Life a very good TCS is better than any human. That is why they tried to take it out of Formula 1. It's the same with ABS. Computers and mechanical components can react faster than a human in every situation. F1 drivers are arguably the most skilled on earth and even they couldn't best a computer controlled TCS.

They didn't try, they did take it out of F1. It's been banned since the start of the '08 season. I agree, an F1 style TCS will make you faster. But, your average TC system serves a completely different purpose than the TCS that was in F1. The F1 TC systems were designed to deliver the maximum amount of power to the road at all times. Your everyday TCS isn't designed to do that. So no matter how "good" a TCS is, if it's not designed for the race track it will slow down a skilled driver in real life. In GT5, I'm 1-3 seconds faster with most cars when TC is off than I am with it on. And there are many others on this forum who are faster with it off, as well.

As an older player it always makes me smile when the kids here pretends that they are real race car drivers, and try to simulate it all to be just like in the real world.I think its pity that PD didn´t simulate the crashes well enough. It would be more realistic if You cut your legs when driving out, and have to be injured a few months unable to enter the game. Or in the worst case your car gets burnin and you´ll be out.Only way to continue playin is to start it all over again. It would also be hilarious if U get a tire puncture after 23.50 hours of 24h nurburgring endurance,resultatin in crash and burn because of a rabbit running cross the track. After all the posts I have read here in this past month, it wouldn´t surprise me at all if some kids here actually put theyre helmets and racin gloves on entering a online race

I guess you haven't played many racing sims if you think kids are the only ones who do that.

 

[Denilson]

I disagree with this part of your statement. In Real Life a very good TCS is better than any human. That is why they tried to take it out of Formula 1. It's the same with ABS. Computers and mechanical components can react faster than a human in every situation. F1 drivers are arguably the most skilled on earth and even they couldn't best a computer controlled TCS.

Ok, so now you are using the most advanced racing class to prove that TCS makes a car go faster.. Ok, but I still will not ever say that the traction possible (by the laws of physics) will increase due to TCS. That will never happen.

So, I guess that an advanced system like the one you are talking about in F1, will be helpful even for F1 drivers. Fair enough.. But it will not change the laws of physics and it is not that kind of advanced TCS in GT5.. So as long as we talk about GT5, no TCS is ever faster.. If we talk really advanced F1 tecnology, yes, it's possible to make a car faster, but that is only because the driver can't handle it (maybee it's impossible, but still), so I guess it's the same as for a GT5 gamer who needs TCS to control a powerful standardcar. Same needs apply = Can't handle the car, = needs help

If the F1 driver actually was able to control the car without TCS, he would be atleast as fast..

 

[santiagomo87]

If you think about it... how soft is a soft tyre??

 

[C.D]

cuz people think that insanely expensive and technologically advanced race cars handling like a severely overloaded truck cruising on the surface of an ice lake is "realistic" and "challenging".

Challenging? Sure.

Realistic? Nope.

Please note that most of these people have never driven a real car above 150 Km/h, either, let alone an actual tuned car on track.

 

[3thanol]

Please note that most of these people have never driven a real car above 150 Km/h, either, let alone an actual tuned car on track.

This is very true, but in case have not gathered from this post and the forum in gereral, driving on hard tyres make you better than everyone else and makes you shine lol.

I would like to say people on here who get quick times on the ring etc, if they could take the exact same car from GT5 and time it for real, they would not get close to their time because the 101+ factors that are not shown/represented in the game or are impossible to replicate.

As said how soft is soft, the same could be said for how hard is hard, again what is a comfort tyre, a road tyre like dunlop, bridgestone, michelin, Avon, if so what tyre tread and ratings etc, how anal do we want to get. All manufactures claim things over others like stopping distance tyre wear etc, for what is just a road tyre.

Reason this post as gone as far I would say, is because the arragonce of over looking so many things then claiming you are supiror because you drive in the limits of a given tyre. we can all do that, but in the process we do not undermine others who decide to use what is in the game.

 

[911_RS]

cuz people think that insanely expensive and technologically advanced race cars handling like a severely overloaded truck cruising on the surface of an ice lake is "realistic" and "challenging".

Challenging? Sure.

Realistic? Nope.

Please note that most of these people have never driven a real car above 150 Km/h, either, let alone an actual tuned car on track.

Precisely.....when I'm doing 140mph (225kph) coming down the back straight at Sebring you can bet I'm depending on my race compound tires in Turn 17......

 

[TouringBubble]

The cars act different online then offline. Which one of those two very different race characterisitcs is like the "real world"? In the real world, street cars come equipped with traction control and stability control to make them go faster. Some cars, like the EVO 10, have a traction control system that electronically control each wheel so they could, depending on conditions, be all at different speeds.

In this game, people turn off traction control because they think its real racing and they can go faster. In real life, race drivers have illegally used traction control because they can go faster with it, its an advantage. If people are going faster in races (not drag races) in GT5 with it off, then its not realistic.


This article will explain that since the electronic means of traction control is banned in racing because it gives drivers an edge, that other legal things like soft tires are used instead.

http://www.circletrack.com/chassistech/ctrp_0907_race_car_traction_control/index.html

I hate to say it, but I'm guessing you've never tried to race a car with traction control in the real world.

you are correct in saying that SOME cars, like the Evo X, have a very complex "traction control" system that can make the car faster in some cases. The Evo X is insanely sophisticated in terms of TC, hence why it's not called "traction control" on the Evo. It's called "Super All Wheel Control" and it works with 2 LSDs, a variable locking center diff and rear yaw control, making it much more than standard traction control.

Traction control, such as the common ASM, ESP, ASC and others have a very simple function. They do not adjust power between the wheels or try to regain traction in any complicated way. The do a few basic things, and mainly cut power to the wheels. This is usually achieved through electronic control of the throttle or, in few cases, an electronic diff. The almost always results in slower times in any racing situation.

This is how GT5's standard traction control works. When slip is detected, it reduces throttle/power to the drive wheels, just like normal TC system. And, for a decent driver, this is a handicap. Attend any local racing event (auto-X, track day, PDX, etc.) and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Slurm]

I find the constant use of racing soft tyres online really annoying.

cuz people think that insanely expensive and technologically advanced race cars handling like a severely overloaded truck cruising on the surface of an ice lake is "realistic" and "challenging".

Challenging? Sure.

Realistic? Nope.

Please note that most of these people have never driven a real car above 150 Km/h, either, let alone an actual tuned car on track.

Sorry, but um.... @ j00

With this game's physics, racing softs WAY exceed the grip of anything possible in real world racing. You only have to watch a replay to figure that out. Most un-restricted online racing is dominated by certain 4WD cars being flung about on their glue-tyres in a way that doesn't even resemble reality. I respect the skill it takes to do a 5 minute lap of the ring or whatever, but it's no way realistic and requires all real-world race-driving technique to be forgotten, if you want to be competitive. There's no need to have any respect for the car's limits, as it will just stick to the road as you apply full lock and full throttle.

I'm not saying I am better than those people who gold X1 challenges and sling their FTO race car perfectly through the Nordschliefe without ever braking. I AM saying that it's unrealistic. Mostly due to the "racing soft" compound. You trying to argue that it's realistic, based on your real-world track experience of tuned cars is hard to take seriously. Sorry, but it's ignorant..

It's just my opinion, but seeing as how GT5 uses real cars and tracks and calls itself the real driving simulator, I want GT5 to be close to reality and require the same skills as real driving. On racing soft tyres, most of those skills become obsolete.

For your contemplation - a realistic simulation - note the tyres "made of ice" and the skill required to retain traction:


Just for the record, I respect this equally:

 

[Sail IC]

Different people want different experiences out of the game, and the game let you explore it to some level. To be able to chose is a good thing.

This whole debate seems very similar to ... My god is better than yours.

 

[Glennm27]

It just seems silly to me that a car that was built for slicks can't use them.....

I agree. The leveling the playing field reasoning is a crazy reason for NOT using Race Softs. Everyone runs Race Softs and the field is level again. Let the racer decide what tire to use. They ALL (tires0 have their give and take to them.

I use them on my real car, so why shouldn't I be able to use them in a game?

Use them in a race and you get the advantage of the stickiest tire out there but you'll pay the price for having to pit sooner.

It's all a strategy thing.... Should I or shouldn't I ????

 

[Slurm]

^ I agree, it's great to have different compounds so tyre strategy plays a part in a race. The problem is that anything softer than RH's makes cars handle in a stupid way that rewards a suicidal and unrealistic driving style. Once again - I respect that it still takes skill to go faster than your opponent - of course. But it's more about how to keep your throttle down and fling the car through turns. It is no longer necessary to take any care.

I just don't like this type of racing - it gets frantic and scrappy. I honestly believe that the game works better when slowed down to a more realistic pace.

Also, I wouldn't be complaining so much if softs wore out in 2 laps and we had another racing compound harder than RH. But.. softs will last almost as long as hards. Currently there is no place for the harder compounds in unrestricted races, unless perhaps a race is a very specific length that would mean an extra stop, and even that is questionable.