Racing or Driving - The Future of Gran Turismo

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What should a Gran Turismo game focus on?

  • The driving aspect

    Votes: 24 11.9%
  • The racing aspect

    Votes: 94 46.8%
  • Mix of both

    Votes: 83 41.3%

  • Total voters
    201
Agree, that it's probably about priorities. Kaz needs to listen to his consumers. We want better AI. Disagree however, that online is it and career mode is not. People have personal preferences. Part of the audience is very concerned with the career aspect. They want the challenge of a good race without having to play dodge these cars to catch the leader who's already a lap ahead. Other games do it. Why can't GT.

The idea of car makers providing the cars is very intriguing.
It is not intriguing... it is already a reality with the vision cars, the M4, and even the hornet which is basically a car from the past...

This aspect will be even more true... and this is where PD is maintaining the lead over his competition, this symbiosis with the car industry... advantage Kaz.
 
The current AI arcade difficulty level slider would remain and would be independent from the AI offline Career mode.
In such case you would still be able to play with you guest in arcade mode against the arcade AI. This would not affect your trophies and wins stats.
Arcade mode has its own issues though, and unless they are addressed, this might not help much. Even if we assume PD makes a perfect arcade mode, that might still not be enough. GT isn't built for coop play, but that doesn't mean people won't or shouldn't try to make it coop. Obviously if the goal is to tag team all of career mode, arcade mode doesn't matter.

As for getting around to finish the career offline game mode, i dont agree with you to let people change the AI difficulty on the fly or whenever you want. It would be too easy then to claim that you have completed the game.
I don't think so. How are they making the claim? If it's just by word of mouth, anyone can make the claim even if they never played GT. If it's through the game's records then you can verify what happened.

You should be able to say:
I finish the career mode in easy
I finish the career mode in medium
I finishe the career mode in hard
I finishe the career mode in extremely difficult
I finish the career mode because i am Vettel

Get my drift ;)
I get where you are coming from, but this goes back to what I said before. You're making a competition and forcing everyone to be bound by its rules. Where did the focus on fun go?

Assuming that GT looks at what you've done and gives you a rewarding message at the end, then let it just go by the weakest link the in chain. If you do 99% of races on Vettel difficulty and then 1% on easy you get the first message on the end, and that's what shows up on your stats page that you may or may not care about at all. In this case those playing for fun have their fun and those that want to compare the stats of every player online to their own stats can as well.
 
It is not intriguing... it is already a reality with the vision cars, the M4, and even the hornet which is basically a car from the past...

This aspect will be even more true... and this is where PD is maintaining the lead over his competition, this symbiosis with the car industry... advantage Kaz.

Sounds like fanboy speak. The automakers aren't coding. They are sketching and designing and giving it to PD to implement. If that's the focus then I go back to my "initial-impression" of GT. See all the beautiful cars to drive and forget about the race. Cars on tracks just for you to oogle over. NOT! Trust me if the focus doesn't change the sales will diminish even further.
 
I can't go back to Grids arcade physics. I can't go to Forza cause I don't want a Xbox. If I just want to tool around in a car I can go to Need For Speed. There's a new one coming out that's supposed to be fun as well called The Crew. In other words. I can let go of GT if I have to. If it becomes boring and monotonous which is the path its on.
 
I am not fanboy speaking... just marely stating the fact. As much as you dont like it. Race is not the priority as much as casual fun.

And no where did i ever say the automaker are coding.
So between you and me, lets agree to say that we both agree. We want fun, but we alsobetter race and AI in career mode.
Sounds like fanboy speak. The automakers aren't coding. They are sketching and designing and giving it to PD to implement. If that's the focus then I go back to my "initial-impression" of GT. See all the beautiful cars to drive and forget about the race. Cars on tracks just for you to oogle over. NOT! Trust me if the focus doesn't change the sales will diminish even further.

When i wrote "say", i mean figuratively, not literally.
It would be in the game record as you also have understood.

Example: you pop in GT7 for the first time.
It ask you to select the difficulty level, or based on a first lap, it select the recommended career level for you.
Just like old video games back in the days, or even today FPS game. You can complete the game three times.
Then the next step, the game would ask you to define a temporary and modifiable AI arcade level, and currently possible. Of course we all here would hope and assume the AI is vastly improved, and there is real changes when using that slider.

You shared your concerns, i am just here trying to say that i agree with you and that i want the same thing as you do. I am in no way defending Kaz, just trying to explain what is realistic to implement and what would not be.

Arcade mode has its own issues though, and unless they are addressed, this might not help much. Even if we assume PD makes a perfect arcade mode, that might still not be enough. GT isn't built for coop play, but that doesn't mean people won't or shouldn't try to make it coop. Obviously if the goal is to tag team all of career mode, arcade mode doesn't matter.


I don't think so. How are they making the claim? If it's just by word of mouth, anyone can make the claim even if they never played GT. If it's through the game's records then you can verify what happened.


I get where you are coming from, but this goes back to what I said before. You're making a competition and forcing everyone to be bound by its rules. Where did the focus on fun go?

Assuming that GT looks at what you've done and gives you a rewarding message at the end, then let it just go by the weakest link the in chain. If you do 99% of races on Vettel difficulty and then 1% on easy you get the first message on the end, and that's what shows up on your stats page that you may or may not care about at all. In this case those playing for fun have their fun and those that want to compare the stats of every player online to their own stats can as well.

Edit: and in regard to the individual AI level for each track or each mission, that would be a headach to implement and to manage.
You gave a nice example of someone doing 99% in Vettel and one percent in easy. In such case, if implemented as such, as a coder, i would simply say that you only completed the Vettel level at 99%. Period. Until you can finish the last percent in Vettel, no matter what you are still incomplete. No partial credit.

But what if some does 15% in Vettel, 60% in Medium, 10% in hard and 5% in easy, and 10% in extreme... it would be a mess trying to compare stats... possible but not as convenient as having different individual goals.

I would be striing to complete the game in difficult, as opposed to you, you would be striving to complete it in Vettel. ;)
 
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- without races, GT would be a cold sofware with cars and not a game with fans.
- "chassing the rabbit" is a valid and fun race build. it's the only way to race cars that have diferent performances with some challenge. we cant confuse this kind of race values with the frustation of missing other kind of races.

poll:do you want a race creator for career mode ? 130 yes and counting
 
Why people care about the AI when you have the online mode???
Racing against other real people will always be far far better than racing against the AI.

It seems it has improved in GT6 and it still could improve more of course, but no matter how good it is, it will never match a human intelligence. Never
Artificial intelligence is no match for my natural stupidity.
 
It ask you to select the difficulty level, or based on a first lap, it select the recommended career level for you.
Just like old video games back in the days, or even today FPS game. You can complete the game three times.
Then the next step, the game would ask you to define a temporary and modifiable AI arcade level, and currently possible. Of course we all here would hope and assume the AI is vastly improved, and there is real changes when using that slider.
Maybe a idea for GT7 but this can not fix GT6.

Again, the AI's skill/speed is not the problem, they can be fast.

The real big Problem is how all "races" work since GT4.
Always start 14 positions and 15sec. behind and as if that is not bad enough also the only fast AI cars always run away up front while the slow one prevent you from using racing line by parking on it.

With this setup it is impossible to have fast AI and win a race unless you have a totally overpowered car.

Races must be longer or grid must have more equal cars at random position or you have to start somewhere in the middle.
Or a combination of those 3.

The problem was also in the last GT's but you could work around it with your car choice.

But with this new AI wait/slow down for you thing it become impossible to have anything close to a race in 95% of the career mode.

Take a fast car and you smoke them because they are to slow.
Take a slower one and they drive even slower an make it only more fake.
(And they start running in to you after you overtook because they have much better cars)

I really like to know what i.... at PD came up with that idea and why not all test players have told them that it is awful.

Until the change their mind on how a race should be like GT is doomed no matter what they do to the AI.

Or they should skip racing and start to make a driving game.
(copy some ideas of Test Drive Unlimited 2 and Grand Theft Auto X, both 10x more "driving games" than Gran Turismo 6)
 
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^^ 👍 Exactly what I said earlier - they must change the race starts first or AI improvements are redundant.
 
We have rolling starts because all those cars starting on grid together is too much for the PS3 to handle (which is maxed out just bringing us the game as it is) and this causes huge FPS issues which people would also complain about.

Almost every big issue people have with the game (rolling starts, headlights in night racing, AI, damage modelling) is down to compromises PD made due to hardware limitations. Resources are spread thin doing a little bit of everything, hopefully on PS4 we should see some big improvements in these areas.
 
I want free roam as many others do. A large scale city, whatever, i'n not picky. With traffic, lights, pedestrians, the whole 9 yards. I just have the feeling PD would water it down and limit it soo much it would be more of a joke than anything.

I'm sure they're not going to promote drifting through traffic.

Edit: I also wonder if Kaz coded the A.I. himself for the original GT? Perhaps it's a case of Kaz being arrogant and not wanting to switch/move on from what he originally created. Cause let's be honest here, the A.I. hasn't changed from GT1.
 
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I want a racing game, and one that sounds good also.
So if GT7 (damn are we really hoping for a revival in 7 now already :odd:...), has competitive AI that isn't rubberbanded like an elastic, with fixed grid starts and engine sounds that at least match the engines (meaning a V8 sounds like a V8) i would return to my old love.

But seeing the course PD has been following during the entire PS3 lifecycle of copy-pasting material over, and managing to make each game actually worse (in my opinion) than the previous one, it would really surprise me if they wouldn't do the same for GT7 and just give us a GT6 with better graphics and have Mars mapped this time...

Anyway let's wait and see... again.
 
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Ironically i believe this is exactly how PD intended it to be, but never really explained it to us as such.

The US producer was even quoted explains that it was more of a time trial game with AI being more of bench mark than actual competitors. And it does make sense as that's the only universal explanation that makes sense.

Though I would much prefer a proper offline racing game, I fear offline is all just a tutorial for online.

And this might have worked if racing games would learn how to regulate pickup games and punish the hooning. Likely the most revolutionary feature of iracing... A perpetual online mode with ranking based on quality of competition... Is that really so hard for other racers to implement?!

No, it's not. Console developers just need to further embrace services beyond the box...

Oh how I would love to earn my licenses based on a perpetual online career... That would make the game endlessly engaging.
 
To those wanting Polyphony to just "improve the AI", don't you think that if they were either capable or willing, maybe after 6 attempts and over 20 years, we would have that fabled good AI?

In my opinion, AI is not a priority for PD, but if AI isn't a priority, why do we spend the vast majority of the offline A-Spec "racing" against them, easily one of Gran Turismo's weakest areas. It only highlights the problem.
 
A-spec is a horrible boring experience. Online transforms this game into a great racing experience. BUT there is still tons of room for improvement on both ends, and sometimes I wonder where PD's head gets stuck in.
 
Almost every big issue people have with the game (rolling starts, headlights in night racing, AI, damage modelling) is down to compromises PD made due to hardware limitations. Resources are spread thin doing a little bit of everything, hopefully on PS4 we should see some big improvements in these areas.
The hardware is NOT the reason for the AI slowing down and letting you win.
Also NOT the reason for always letting you start last and the fastest car always first.
Also NOT the reason for all races being to short to be good/fair.
Also NOT the reason that there is always a huuuuge difference between the fastest and slowest opponent you get (one runs away, the other stand in your way)

I am so tired of the hardware excuse...
Look at how much they improved the physic model and graphics, they just have no clue how to make a good gameplay and are stuck with the one from GT1.

GT7 will be exactly the same only nicer and with better sound.
I bet they will even dumb down the physic model and make all cars drive almost the same again because so many complain about how difficult some cars handle.
 
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seeing the responses in this thread makes me think that an "endless race" type of mode would be liked by many people. Just have the game continuously spawn another car ahead of you after you catch up to one.
 
seeing the responses in this thread makes me think that an "endless race" type of mode would be liked by many people. Just have the game continuously spawn another car ahead of you after you catch up to one.
As long as it is a mode and not all races are this way, fine with me.

Every variety in the dull career would be welcome...

One of my biggest issues with GT(6) is that they alway FORCE me to do it their way and give me no option to do it like i want.
All races MUST have only 3-5 laps.
I MUST always start last.
I MUST drive all events with SRF on.
The AI MUST let me win every time.

With a few buttons & sliders and a "custom race" mode this could be the best racing game ever, but now it is one of the worst.
 
seeing the responses in this thread makes me think that an "endless race" type of mode would be liked by many people. Just have the game continuously spawn another car ahead of you after you catch up to one.
No. We already have Need For Speed for that.
 
Edit: and in regard to the individual AI level for each track or each mission, that would be a headach to implement and to manage.
Forza has already done this. Forza also has let you change the difficulty of individual AI drivers.
You gave a nice example of someone doing 99% in Vettel and one percent in easy. In such case, if implemented as such, as a coder, i would simply say that you only completed the Vettel level at 99%. Period. Until you can finish the last percent in Vettel, no matter what you are still incomplete. No partial credit.
For the sake of example, that is what I suggested. They get points for completing career mode on easy and nothing else.
But what if some does 15% in Vettel, 60% in Medium, 10% in hard and 5% in easy, and 10% in extreme... it would be a mess trying to compare stats... possible but not as convenient as having different individual goals.
You made it pretty easy. List the percentages, click on them to see the races. Or just list all the races/difficulties in a grid and compare that way.

Or use my example, the person would get credit for easy mode only.
 
Ironically i believe this is exactly how PD intended it to be, but never really explained it to us as such.

The US producer was even quoted explains that it was more of a time trial game with AI being more of bench mark than actual competitors. And it does make sense as that's the only universal explanation that makes sense.

.

That's bad news! I'll finish this career mode, but I'm TIRED of rolling starts and playing catch the leader. That's not racing.
 
I want free roam as many others do. A large scale city, whatever, i'n not picky. With traffic, lights, pedestrians, the whole 9 yards. I just have the feeling PD would water it down and limit it soo much it would be more of a joke than anything.

I'm sure they're not going to promote drifting through traffic.

Edit: I also wonder if Kaz coded the A.I. himself for the original GT? Perhaps it's a case of Kaz being arrogant and not wanting to switch/move on from what he originally created. Cause let's be honest here, the A.I. hasn't changed from GT1.

Yeah, a 'Gran Turismo Horizon' would be interesting. I wish PD had the resources to pursue this avenue as an experiment. I think they could do a good job with some very nice touches. Their vision of an open world could be impressive. Maybe the folks who came up with Tourist Trophy would be able to force motorcycles into the game.

It would be a way for PD to focus on 'driving' and enjoying cars/car culture a little more than outright 'racing.'
 
I want free roam as many others do. A large scale city, whatever, i'n not picky. With traffic, lights, pedestrians, the whole 9 yards. I just have the feeling PD would water it down and limit it soo much it would be more of a joke than anything.

I'm sure they're not going to promote drifting through traffic.

Edit: I also wonder if Kaz coded the A.I. himself for the original GT? Perhaps it's a case of Kaz being arrogant and not wanting to switch/move on from what he originally created. Cause let's be honest here, the A.I. hasn't changed from GT1.

Well it seems clear to me that PD have two potential games rather than just one. Personally as a (fairly casual) racer I have zero interest in a free roam mode. I've never tried Test Drive, and don't know much about Driveclub but aren't these essentially Free Roam driving games? Perhaps there isn't room for a third, I don't know.

If they are going to do free roam, I think they should re-use the assets from GT6 to make a separate game for cruising & car collecting.

For GT7 rewrite the AI from scratch - and put as much effort into it as they usually do for the graphics & driving feel.
If they start with building a world class AI, then they can construct a decent racing game on top of that. Perhaps they could implement some vehicle sharing etc... between the two games.

I don't think it is sensible to try to appeal to such a wide audience that the core game-play becomes confused & diluted which is what seems to have already happened to GT5 & GT6.

Although I suppose they could implement point to point tracks on a course creator which might satisfy the free roam fan club. Could also be interesting to race some point to point tracks too.
 
I'm not sure that I've ever treated GT games as "racing" games so much. I generally race to make money and buy cars then spend the rest of the time doing time trials.

When I feel like a bit of competitive racing I switch to F1 2013
 
lol @ someone suggesting free roam for GT.

GT is clearly not your game then - GT is more serious than that. Free roam would be pointless in a game like that, therefore it isnt added. Maybe you should try NFS Underground 2 or Most wanted. Those have it.
What's the point on Free Roam if you can't do anything anyway? GTA is the best type of game when it comes to free roaming.
 
The hardware is NOT the reason for the AI slowing down and letting you win.
Also NOT the reason for always letting you start last and the fastest car always first.
Also NOT the reason for all races being to short to be good/fair.
Also NOT the reason that there is always a huuuuge difference between the fastest and slowest opponent you get (one runs away, the other stand in your way)

I am so tired of the hardware excuse...
Look at how much they improved the physic model and graphics, they just have no clue how to make a good gameplay and are stuck with the one from GT1.

GT7 will be exactly the same only nicer and with better sound.
I bet they will even dumb down the physic model and make all cars drive almost the same again because so many complain about how difficult some cars handle.
Hold on there..how is it not, exactly? I only see you saying a few times that it is NOT the reason, but why so? Come on, where are your sources that back up this claim?

Every one of the AI's actions must be coupled to a feedback mechanism in the software to determine the next action, which costs processing power, right? Or do you believe that the AI is something that magically is independent of hardware?

Heck, it might even have to do something with the fact that the Cell Broadband Engine is particularily strong at executing parallel operations, while obviously every AI calculation of a single opponent car is a successive operation.

Unless you can provide us with some real detail as to why the hardware is not the limiting factor (even indirectly because it doesn't allow the software to be programmed detailed enough to provide a better feedback system and improving AI actions accordingly), then your claim is worthless.
 
Unless you can provide us with some real detail as to why the hardware is not the limiting factor (even indirectly because it doesn't allow the software to be programmed detailed enough to provide a better feedback system and improving AI actions accordingly), then your claim is worthless.

Codemasters' did an awesome job with AI in F1 2013 on the ps3 with twice as many cars on track. How's that for detail?

People who claim that the ps3 is the reason for poor sound and AI really need to try other games (speaking of which codemasters do an awesome job with sound too)
 
Codemasters' did an awesome job with AI in F1 2013 on the ps3 with twice as many cars on track. How's that for detail?

People who claim that the ps3 is the reason for poor sound and AI really need to try other games (speaking of which codemasters do an awesome job with sound too)
Apples and oranges.

How many vehicle parameters does F1 2013 monitor? How much detail is there in the suspension, tyre and vehicle dynamics model?

It is common sense that F1 2013's physics model is way simpler than GT6's, making it far more easier to make a 'good' AI system, as the feedback and action-taking algorithm are way more basic.

So no, I don't claim the PS3 solely as being the reason it is a limitation (while in truth it _always_ is...if you say it isn't then you clearly haven't got the slightest clue about programming at all, I'm sorry..).

It is the combination of GT6's 'elaborate' physics model that requires an extensive AI algorithm to achieve the desired result compared to a game with way more simpler physics (TOCA, anyone?).

Furthermore, we know that the PS3 is stressed while playing the game, which means there _is_ a processing limitation that is reserved for AI calculations. With better hardware, way more calculations and thus more detailed AI actions could be implemented. Simple logic. Unlike vehicle physics, AI is something that does get better when there is more processing time available. Not only because a combination of more 'predefined' choices can be achieved, but also because it is a real-time process, which inherently always benefits from more processing power.

While I agree that the AI is not that good at the moment, it is very naive to claim that it is not the result of hardware limitations at all, because it always is, directly or indirectly for the reasons I've mentioned above. Shouting it in capital letters and speaking with emotions ('I'm tired of these excuses...') does not make the claim automatically true, you know. Especially when absolutely no technical detail is provided whatsoever before making the claim....sigh.
 
Apples and oranges.

How many vehicle parameters does F1 2013 monitor? How much detail is there in the suspension, tyre and vehicle dynamics model?

It is common sense that F1 2013's physics model is way simpler than GT6's, making it far more easier to make a 'good' AI system, as the feedback and action-taking algorithm are way more basic.

So no, I don't claim the PS3 solely as being the reason it is a limitation (while in truth it _always_ is...if you say it isn't then you clearly haven't got the slightest clue about programming at all, I'm sorry..).

It is the combination of GT6's 'elaborate' physics model that requires an extensive AI algorithm to achieve the desired result compared to a game with way more simpler physics (TOCA, anyone?).

Furthermore, we know that the PS3 is stressed while playing the game, which means there _is_ a processing limitation that is reserved for AI calculations. With better hardware, way more calculations and thus more detailed AI actions could be implemented.

While I agree that the AI is not that good at the moment, it is very naive to claim that it is not the result of hardware limitations at all, because it always is, directly or indirectly for the reasons I've mentioned above. Shouting it in capital letters and speaking with emotions ('I'm tired of these excuses...') does not make the claim automatically true, you know. Especially when absolutely no technical detail is provided whatsoever before making the claim....sigh.

Well perhaps PD should compromise on the graphics a little to ensure that the core requirement for an offline racing game, decent AI, is met first.
 

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