Racing or Driving - The Future of Gran Turismo

[baldgye]

I feel like PD are kinda screwed.
To focus on AI and making the offline racing as good as possible takes a lot of work, which would mean that graphics and number of cars etc would greatly suffer.
These are both things I would be totally fine with, but come the launch of GT6 and I can't count he number of complaints I see about how it sucks it's not a ps4 game or how it sucks that this one car (out of over 1k) dsnt have a fully modled interior...

They feel stuck iterating on pervious games rather than shifting focus on other aspects of the game because console gamers (from my own personal experience) tend to be fairly fickle.

I personally would take a reduction in cars (by over half) and in graphics to have AI on par with at least the F1 games.

 

[Firedragon]

Well perhaps PD should compromise on the graphics a little to ensure that the core requirement for an offline racing game, decent AI, is met first.

Yeah, that could be a sensible thing to do. In that case it is all about the quantity of things that will determine if it is worth it to do so...i.e.: to improve the AI by 'so much', how 'worse' do the graphics have to be to accomplish that? I don't think anyone here knows (including me), so that's pure speculative.

With the PS4, both departments could be made better. In theory....it's all up to PD to decide how to distribute the power among the game elements and how their implementation will turn out.

 

[NICKname]

Yeah, a 'Gran Turismo Horizon' would be interesting. I wish PD had the resources to pursue this avenue as an experiment. I think they could do a good job with some very nice touches. Their vision of an open world could be impressive. Maybe the folks who came up with Tourist Trophy would be able to force motorcycles into the game.

It would be a way for PD to focus on 'driving' and enjoying cars/car culture a little more than outright 'racing.'

It could work. The standard cars could be the cars of normal civilians and the premiums the cars of the racers. I would like a Gran Turismo game like Test Drive Unlimited or Forza Horizon. Both of those are spinoffs and pretty successful ones too.

lol @ someone suggesting free roam for GT.

GT is clearly not your game then - GT is more serious than that. Free roam would be pointless in a game like that, therefore it isnt added. Maybe you should try NFS Underground 2 or Most wanted. Those have it.
What's the point on Free Roam if you can't do anything anyway? GTA is the best type of game when it comes to free roaming.

You should play Test Drive Unlimited..

 

[NixxxoN]

It could work. The standard cars could be the cars of normal civilians and the premiums the cars of the racers. I would like a Gran Turismo game like Test Drive Unlimited or Forza Horizon. Both of those are spinoffs and pretty successful ones too.

You should play Test Drive Unlimited..

But what's the point on free roaming? You can't really race properly and seriously on a free roaming space (you need a closed circuit)
And it's not a game to freely explore the virtual map like a GTA game anyway, so yeah, its quite pointless and i'd rather have real life tracks for sure.

 

[jjaisli]

Hold on there..how is it not, exactly? I only see you saying a few times that it is NOT the reason, but why so? Come on, where are your sources that back up this claim?

Unless you can provide us with some real detail as to why the hardware is not the limiting factor (even indirectly because it doesn't allow the software to be programmed detailed enough to provide a better feedback system and improving AI actions accordingly), then your claim is worthless.

Kart races are all feature standing starts.

 

[Firedragon]

Kart races are all feature standing starts.

It was about AI and you're assuming that the standing starts have something to do with AI, so I'm bearing with that, because I believe that it is a design choice based on the compromise of distributing the processing power among the different elements.

But having said that, karts are not cars in terms of how they are simulated in the game and I believe the following points are true:
- Karts have way less polygons to be modelled, thus requiring less processing in terms of graphics
- Karts have almost no suspension, so that model can be heavily simplified, making it possible to simulate the karts (which is a design choice!) with less processing power being used. AI is therefore easier to do as well for the reasons I've mentioned in the previous post.

These free up resources and may be the reason to indeed have the standing starts.

But then again, there is still no proof why the limited hardware is _not_ the reason that the AI is in its current, limited state. People saying so must be unaware of the technical details, because ask yourself: if it was that easy to implement ("look at 'game X', they can do it as well!"), then why wouldn't we have had it already?

Instead, the reason is 'It's not true because I've heard it too many times and I'm tired of it'. That has to be one of the worst arguments ever...

 

[MXH]

Why people care about the AI when you have the online mode???

To solely rely on online multiplayer giving you the competition you want is, in my opinion, simply wrong. Obviously, you'll always have a far better experience with clean and fast racers online, but that still doesn't mean they should drop the ball as far as AI goes.

Racing against other real people will always be far far better than racing against the AI.

It seems it has improved in GT6 and it still could improve more of course, but no matter how good it is, it will never match a human intelligence. Never

That would be true if online in general wasn't made up of a cesspool of a-holes. At this point, I couldn't care less for online leagues (or anything that takes time to organize) so that's out of the question. I just don't have the time and an AI worth racing against is therefore preferably the most optimal solution.

 

[NixxxoN]

To solely rely on online multiplayer giving yout the competition you want is, in my opinion, simply wrong. Obviously, you'll always have a far better expereince with clean and fast racers online, but that still doesn't mean they should drop the ball as far as AI goes.


That would be true if online in general wasn't a made up of a cesspool of a-holes. At this point, I couldn't care less for online leagues either (or anything that takes time to organize) so that's out of the question. I just don't have the time and an AI worth racing against is therefore preferably the most optimal solution.

If you don't have time to find good online people to play against, then I'm sorry for you, because for me it's awesome and far better than 1p mode (to meet good people to play with)

 

[C_Raccoon23]

But what's the point on free roaming? You can't really race properly and seriously on a free roaming space (you need a closed circuit)
And it's not a game to freely explore the virtual map like a GTA game anyway, so yeah, its quite pointless and i'd rather have real life tracks for sure.

No, it's not pointless. You're not restricted to closed-track, where you can only go in one direction. You can drive whereever you choose. That's the appeal of it.

 

[jjaisli]

It was about AI and you're assuming that the standing starts have something to do with AI, so I'm bearing with that, because I believe that it is a design choice based on the compromise of distributing the processing power among the different elements.

But having said that, karts are not cars in terms of how they are simulated in the game and I believe the following points are true:
- Karts have way less polygons to be modelled, thus requiring less processing in terms of graphics
- Karts have almost no suspension, so that model can be heavily simplified, making it possible to simulate the karts (which is a design choice!) with less processing power being used. AI is therefore easier to do as well for the reasons I've mentioned in the previous post.

These free up resources and may be the reason to indeed have the standing starts.

I do believe it was a design choice and I do believe it has to do with the AI. All of what you mentioned above requires graphics and rendering power. But you can have standing starts in online mode, with all premium cars (16 of them) and it would require the same graphics intensive processing, although slightly less processing power in scripting the AI (while still interpreting packets of code and placing it on the screen. Not to mention prediction code used when those packets aren't being received fast enough.

 

[NixxxoN]

No, it's not pointless. You're not restricted to closed-track, where you can only go in one direction. You can drive whereever you choose. That's the appeal of it.

Each to it's own... I don't find particularly interesting to drive on roads of an imaginary world, i'd rather take some laps on the Nurburgring.
Anyway, in GT6 you will be able to create your own tracks with a great track/road editor and also recreate real life places, so I think it will be great.

 

[Firedragon]

I do believe it was a design choice and I do believe it has to do with the AI. All of what you mentioned above requires graphics and rendering power. But you can have standing starts in online mode, with all premium cars (16 of them) and it would require the same graphics intensive processing, although slightly less processing power in scripting the AI (while still interpreting packets of code and placing it on the screen. Not to mention prediction code used when those packets aren't being received fast enough.

You're right, maybe what we can conclude from that - with some canniness - is that AI calculations is quite intensive to perform. Prediction code may be well there, but from my experience cars just warp all over the place whenever there is some lag, so I doubt it is anywhere near as intensive to be even considered into the equation, if it even is there at all.

Each to it's own... I don't find particularly interesting to drive on roads of an imaginary world, i'd rather take some laps on the Nurburgring.
Anyway, in GT6 you will be able to create your own tracks with a great track/road editor and also recreate real life places, so I think it will be great.

You're right too, as it truly is personal preference. I like freeroaming and play a lot of Euro Truck Simulator 2 (free roaming through Europe with trucks) and doing that with cars from GT would be a wet dream. But on the other hand, I know that it is impossible when knowing that PD is already struggling to make their games as they are now, getting their features done in time and pleasing some (severe?) critics. Everyone can keep wishing for everything - the sky is the limit -, but most of it, including freeroaming, is totally unrealistic and just won't happen.

 

[jjaisli]

You're right, maybe what we can conclude from that - with some canniness - is that AI calculations is quite intensive to perform. Prediction code may be well there, but from my experience cars just warp all over the place whenever there is some lag, so I doubt it is anywhere near as intensive to be even considered into the equation, if it even is there at all.

Well, let's just say, if the AI, in it's current form, is truly processor intensive, PD is doing something wrong.

I just think it's funny that you have PC games from almost 10 years ago, on much older hardware, with up to 40 AI cars. And didn't F1 CE, a PS3 game allow you to have 23 or 25 AI cars with standing starts? And that had some pretty impressive visuals that pushed the PS3.

Look, you may be right. But if it was a design decision and a compromise, I think it was a poor choice. It was the reason I couldn't be bothered with the seasonal events in GT5 and its the reason I've given up on career mode in GT6. These conga line starts, let's not even call them rolling starts, aren't really racing and they don't exist in any racing series that I know of.

 

[Firedragon]

Well, let's just say, if the AI, in it's current form, is truly processor intensive, PD is doing something wrong.

I just think it's funny that you have PC games from almost 10 years ago, on much older hardware, with up to 40 AI cars. And didn't F1 CE, a PS3 game allow you to have 23 or 25 AI cars with standing starts? And that had some pretty impressive visuals that pushed the PS3.

F1 CE looks pretty good indeed in terms of textures. Although the shader work is absolutely garbage compared to what GT6 can deliver.

What you also musn't forget is that F1 CE doesn't offer 1200 car varieties, which takes a hell of a long time to graphically model and to get the cars handle right by inputting vehicle variables. In any tight development schedule, other aspects of the game are compromised. In GT6's case, many think it's in the AI. I personally think the AI is not brilliant, but sufficient because there is a certain amount of adaptation in terms of speed and behavior. But let's not discuss that here now, because there are other threads in the forum to do so.

Let alone comparing the quality of the physics of GT6 to F1 CE...and you by now know that that is one huge compromising factor that goes hand in hand with the AI programming. So once again, it's comparing apples and oranges and it doesn't necessarily mean PD is doing it wrong. That is simply because there is no standard in what is right, especially since no one offers a game with the content made available in such an amount of time, for such a price, etc. Because there are no competitors at the moment who can make this offer (arguable, definitely), I'm okay with it. Sure there is room for improvement, but that is totally acceptible for me when all things are considered and actually knowing how much effort goes into making a game of such extent.

Look, you may be right. But if it was a design decision and a compromise, I think it was a poor choice. It was the reason I couldn't be bothered with the seasonal events in GT5 and its the reason I've given up on career mode in GT6. These conga line starts, let's not even call them rolling starts, aren't really racing and they don't exist in any racing series that I know of.

I can see why you think so. The rolling starts are a shame, yes. Personally I'm not even bothered by it at all, because a race to me is about the other 99% of the time rather than the start.

 

[IceMan PJN]

It's been a racing game since GT1, it's likely to stay that way. I don't know why the idea that it's not a racing game persists, just because it has a specific slogan. Removing the racing will make the game die, as that's why it sells.

I've made a similar argument, but against the series rather than for the series. Yes, racing is why people play the games, which is why PD need to fix it. Fanboys keep defending GT's problems as a racing game, like the lack of standing starts, the dull overtake-the-prade feel of "races," and the lackluster AI by arguing that it's a driving simulator rather than a racing simulator, and I point out that 99.9% of the folks buying GT buy it to race and not just to drive. It's absolutely critical for the franchise to then improve on exactly that - the actual racing part of the formula.

If PD can't improve the actual racing, they should just retire the franchise because they have no clue what virtually their entire fan base actually wants.

 

[mister dog]

We have rolling starts because all those cars starting on grid together is too much for the PS3 to handle (which is maxed out just bringing us the game as it is) and this causes huge FPS issues which people would also complain about.

Almost every big issue people have with the game (rolling starts, headlights in night racing, AI, damage modelling) is down to compromises PD made due to hardware limitations. Resources are spread thin doing a little bit of everything, hopefully on PS4 we should see some big improvements in these areas.

I do believe it was a design choice and I do believe it has to do with the AI. All of what you mentioned above requires graphics and rendering power. But you can have standing starts in online mode, with all premium cars (16 of them) and it would require the same graphics intensive processing, although slightly less processing power in scripting the AI (while still interpreting packets of code and placing it on the screen. Not to mention prediction code used when those packets aren't being received fast enough.

It's nice when somebody already types out your reply for you :

Codemasters' did an awesome job with AI in F1 2013 on the ps3 with twice as many cars on track. How's that for detail?

People who claim that the ps3 is the reason for poor sound and AI really need to try other games (speaking of which codemasters do an awesome job with sound too)

Exactly 👍.

 

[NICKname]

But what's the point on free roaming? You can't really race properly and seriously on a free roaming space (you need a closed circuit)
And it's not a game to freely explore the virtual map like a GTA game anyway, so yeah, its quite pointless and i'd rather have real life tracks for sure.

GTA is a sandbox, Test Drive Unlimited isn't. That's the difference. Test Drive Unlimited allows you to drive from one point to another without a set direction (if I'm correct), which is not something the Need for Speed games you mentioned allow you to do. Need For Speed Most Wanted 2 and Midnight Club LA do this too, and it's really fun. And yes, Gran Turismo can be just as gangsta as Midnight Club LA:

 

[FishHunters]

I am TOTALLY for the offline AI fix if it meant sacrificing graphics and reducing the # of cars. Graphics sacrifice won't happen though. The manufacturers are onboard with displaying their cars through the GT series. Can't go backwards there. I expect sensational graphics in GT7. Lets get the AI up to speed with the other racing games.

 

[NixxxoN]

And yes, Gran Turismo can be just as gangsta as Midnight Club LA

Being "gangsta" is a good thing or something?

 

[Steve Justice]

I think Forza's Drivatar idea is a good one, minus the fact that absolutely everyone gets one. But the idea of modeling a race car drivers behavior and style is a good idea. It's like generating the "recipe" for racing. It would be cool if GT did something similar, but instead of letting everyone have it, just model a range of amateur and professional racers.

 

[ironman44321]

I think Forza's Drivatar idea is a good one, minus the fact that absolutely everyone gets one. But the idea of modeling a race car drivers behavior and style is a good idea. It's like generating the "recipe" for racing. It would be cool if GT did something similar, but instead of letting everyone have it, just model a range of amateur and professional racers.

This just made me think of using real drivers for the drivatars...You that would be awesome. Could you imagine having AI built off of the GT academy finalists along with drivers like Senna, loeb, Gordon, ect.

 

[FishHunters]

Some want career mode races with qualifiers other don't. I say give us the option.

 

[1241Penguin]

I've always suggested that PD gave us an option in addition to the GT mode we've become used to. This is a career mode with a proper schedule and proper racing, including practice, qualifying, and whatnot. It's just like Codie's F1 games. That could lengthen the game immensely.

 

[Nato_777]

So Arcade Mode, GT Mode and Race Career Mode... that could be awesome. 👍
A proper event/championship editor will be the ultimate solution for me though - one that gives you full control over everything so you could create exactly the type of race league you want.

 

[VQuick]

But what's the point on free roaming? You can't really race properly and seriously on a free roaming space (you need a closed circuit)
And it's not a game to freely explore the virtual map like a GTA game anyway, so yeah, its quite pointless and i'd rather have real life tracks for sure.

The point is having a free roam environment where you can drive and explore it as you see fit. Then, just like almost all the other free roam racing games out there, defined races are held in different portions of the environment. Make a point-to-point course, or string together a few different streets into a circuit.

Theoretically, you get the best of both worlds. That's why Forza Horizon seemed like such a breath of fresh air to the established Forza audience.

The same would happen with a free roam Gran Turismo title. PD already has a penchant for allowing users to create their own course layouts, so imagine the potential from having a sandbox world to create those courses.

 

[FishHunters]

The point is having a free roam environment where you can drive and explore it as you see fit. Then, just like almost all the other free roam racing games out there, defined races are held in different portions of the environment. Make a point-to-point course, or string together a few different streets into a circuit.

Theoretically, you get the best of both worlds. That's why Forza Horizon seemed like such a breath of fresh air to the established Forza audience.

The same would happen with a free roam Gran Turismo title. PD already has a penchant for allowing users to create their own course layouts, so imagine the potential from having a sandbox world to create those courses.

I know it's not "free roam" in exactly the manner you're stating and it's been delayed. But if they get this together like they want to. It would take care of any desire for "pure" free roam.

Especially since it would be a global online thing. Would be my Saturday night joy ride!

 

[VQuick]

I know it's not "free roam" in exactly the manner you're stating and it's been delayed. But if they get this together like they want to. It would take care of any desire for "pure" free roam.

Especially since it would be a global online thing. Would be my Saturday night joy ride!

True, but I don't feel like upgrading to PS4 anytime soon.

 

[wicken]

It's very simple. If they want to become a Racing Game, they have to get rid off all duplicates, reduce the car list massively because a big number of cars available in game aren't really necessary and only includes the cars necessary for each discipline. If the GT series continues a Driving Game, it won't last them long until the series dies because it would just feel a smalll upgrade over the previous entry and unless the developers have some unlimited ideas, there wouldn't be anything else to add.