Rally in Gran Turismo 7: Should it Stay or Go?

[MIE1992]

Not going to happen.

Nacon has the licence until 2024, and then it moves to Codemasters for a 'multi-year' deal.

Even then, with GT limited to a single platform, they would almost certainly never get the licence (nor would I personally want them to, given the appalling dirt physics of the GT series).

That’s what I was trying to say - the licensing of actual modern WRC cars could prove a hassle for PD. (Among other race cars, such as DTM.) I also wonder if this is why so many actual Group B rally cars are absent from Gr.B - including those that’ve already appeared in the series, like the Peugeot 205 T16 - and the only real-world rally car is the Pikes Peak-spec Audi Quattro? Even though GT6 had both the Pikes Peak-spec Quattro and an actual Group B Quattro. Hmmm...I think you could be onto something, here.

But I think that’s all the better reason for GT/PD to introduce more made-for-game racers, both for Gr.B and otherwise. Not only to have similar vehicles that avoid licensing issues, but to also further build GT’s unique identity.

If Group B truly does prove to be a licensing hurdle, then I just wonder what was going on with that Lancia 037. Do we even know if it was PD taking a look at it? Even if they were, maybe it won’t appear in GT7 if real-world Group B cars became out of the question during the scanning and rendering of that 037. I could see the termination of the 037’s inclusion into GT being a thing, given that game development is both incredibly dynamic and very secretive.

Indeed, I could see there being licensing issues for historic rally machines in a similar way to how the F1 games by CodeMasters have been featuring older F1 cars lately.

I could definitely see other modern cars getting a made-for-game racecar treatment and joining Gr.B, especially stuff like the Renault Clio, or the newer Alpine A110. I’d also be down for a Chevrolet Camaro Gr.B, or a Ferrari FF Gr.B. Lamborghini could easily get one, with a modified Huracan based on the real-world Huracan Sterrato concept. Porsche would be very easy, as PD could just pick a 911 and more or less call it a day. Meanwhile, BMW could use a modern M3, as I do recall the E30 being used in Group B. I’m not as sure about Mercedes-Benz but I do know they also competed in Group B, so I could see a more modern C-Class being used, or maybe even an A45. Volkswagen could also prove easy, though I’m very curious about that Gr.B car based on one of its VGTs that we never actually saw in GT Sport - though I suppose PD could also pick a Golf or Beetle model if not one of the VGTs. Mazda could just use a Mazda 3/Axela.

This is all of course before we factor in Pikes Peak cars, which may not have the same licensing issues as formal WRC cars. In that sense, we could see the Peugeot 205 T16 get replaced with the Pikes Peak-spec Peugeot 208, which I do believe was confirmed for GT. Suzuki would be an obvious pick with the Escudo, too.

 

[Scaff]

That’s what I was trying to say - the licensing of actual modern WRC cars could prove a hassle for PD. (Among other race cars, such as DTM.) I also wonder if this is why so many actual Group B rally cars are absent from Gr.B - including those that’ve already appeared in the series, like the Peugeot 205 T16 - and the only real-world rally car is the Pikes Peak-spec Audi Quattro? Even though GT6 had both the Pikes Peak-spec Quattro and an actual Group B Quattro. Hmmm...I think you could be onto something, here.

But I think that’s all the better reason for GT/PD to introduce more made-for-game racers, both for Gr.B and otherwise. Not only to have similar vehicles that avoid licensing issues, but to also further build GT’s unique identity.

If Group B truly does prove to be a licensing hurdle, then I just wonder what was going on with that Lancia 037. Do we even know if it was PD taking a look at it? Even if they were, maybe it won’t appear in GT7 if real-world Group B cars became out of the question during the scanning and rendering of that 037. I could see the termination of the 037’s inclusion into GT being a thing, given that game development is both incredibly dynamic and very secretive.

Indeed, I could see there being licensing issues for historic rally machines in a similar way to how the F1 games by CodeMasters have been featuring older F1 cars lately.

I could definitely see other modern cars getting a made-for-game racecar treatment and joining Gr.B, especially stuff like the Renault Clio, or the newer Alpine A110. I’d also be down for a Chevrolet Camaro Gr.B, or a Ferrari FF Gr.B. Lamborghini could easily get one, with a modified Huracan based on the real-world Huracan Sterrato concept. Porsche would be very easy, as PD could just pick a 911 and more or less call it a day. Meanwhile, BMW could use a modern M3, as I do recall the E30 being used in Group B. I’m not as sure about Mercedes-Benz but I do know they also competed in Group B, so I could see a more modern C-Class being used, or maybe even an A45. Volkswagen could also prove easy, though I’m very curious about that Gr.B car based on one of its VGTs that we never actually saw in GT Sport - though I suppose PD could also pick a Golf or Beetle model if not one of the VGTs. Mazda could just use a Mazda 3/Axela.

This is all of course before we factor in Pikes Peak cars, which may not have the same licensing issues as formal WRC cars. In that sense, we could see the Peugeot 205 T16 get replaced with the Pikes Peak-spec Peugeot 208, which I do believe was confirmed for GT. Suzuki would be an obvious pick with the Escudo, too.

No real reason why PD couldn't get licences for real-world cars outside of the current WRC machinery, as they have appeared in plenty of other titles that don't hold the official WRC licence, and if they are going to insist on continuing with rally they would have more draw than the fictional stuff they have created.

However, cars are not, in my view, the real problem they have. It's the lack-lustre physics and lack of focus that's the real issue, while the first is self-evident (I hope) the second is that GT's rally stages have never really embraced either what makes a true rally stage unique, even Super Specials, nor are they Rally-Cross stages. They are instead these odd, GT Specific creations that really lack the strong points of the real stages and RX circuits and offer almost nothing memorable.

BTW - BMW's group B car was the M1 (the E30 was a group A car), and while Merc did prototype a 190 to Group B spec, it was never homologated and as such never raced.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_B

 

[MIE1992]

No real reason why PD couldn't get licences for real-world cars outside of the current WRC machinery, as they have appeared in plenty of other titles that don't hold the official WRC licence, and if they are going to insist on continuing with rally they would have more draw than the fictional stuff they have created.

So if I understand this correctly, the WRC license shouldn't pose an issue for if GT wanted to include historical WRC cars like those from Group B?

However, cars are not, in my view, the real problem they have. It's the lack-lustre physics and lack of focus that's the real issue, while the first is self-evident (I hope) the second is that GT's rally stages have never really embraced either what makes a true rally stage unique, even Super Specials, nor are they Rally-Cross stages. They are instead these odd, GT Specific creations that really lack the strong points of the real stages and RX circuits and offer almost nothing memorable.

Yeah, I'd personally really prefer the rally stuff be point-to-point time attack stages, rather than on circuits that happen to feature dirt/snow.

BTW - BMW's group B car was the M1 (the E30 was a group A car), and while Merc did prototype a 190 to Group B spec, it was never homologated and as such never raced.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_B

Ah, I see. I suppose that's another idea - for PD to create a made-for-game Gr.B car based on the M8 (G15) if Group B cars cannot be licensed. (EDIT: My logic being is that the M8 (G15) is based on the 8-series (E31) which in turn is based on the M1, the last one being BMW's Group B car.)

 

[Scaff]

So if I understand this correctly, the WRC license shouldn't pose an issue for if GT wanted to include historical WRC cars like those from Group B?

Shouldn't be an issue at all, as Dirt rally, Dirt Rally 2.0, Dirt 4, Dirt 5, SLRE, Gravel and V-Rally 4 (to name a few) have all featured rally cars from a range of homologation classes while not holding the WRC licence, including Group B, Group S, Group A and more.

Yeah, I'd personally really prefer the rally stuff be point-to-point time attack stages, rather than on circuits that happen to feature dirt/snow.

Agree, but a well done Rally-Cross track can still work.

Ah, I see. I suppose that's another idea - for PD to create a made-for-game Gr.B car based on the M8 (G15) if Group B cars cannot be licensed.

No reason why they couldn't licence Group B cars.

 

[MIE1992]

Shouldn't be an issue at all, as Dirt rally, Dirt Rally 2.0, Dirt 4, Dirt 5, SLRE, Gravel and V-Rally 4 (to name a few) have all featured rally cars from a range of homologation classes while not holding the WRC licence, including Group B, Group S, Group A and more.

...

No reason why they couldn't licence Group B cars.

Good to hear. I think it'd be great if we could get both more of the Group B cars from prior GT games, as well as other Group B cars that'd be new to GT, such as the Daihatsu Charade or the MG 6R4. Here's the list of cars they could add from prior GT games alone:

Audi Sport Quattro S1
Lancia Delta S4
Mitsubishi Starion 4WD
Nissan 240RS
Peugeot 205 T16 Evo II
Renault 5 Maxi Turbo

So I think we could see these return, but also Group B cars that'd be new to the series, plus maybe a few more made-for-game Gr.B models, especially for automakers that either never used their Group B cars on dirt courses, or never even competed in Group B. I still maintain that a Gr.B car modeled on the Lamborghini Huracan Sterrato concept would be perfect for Lamborghini.

 

[Scaff]

Good to hear. I think it'd be great if we could get both more of the Group B cars from prior GT games, as well as other Group B cars that'd be new to GT, such as the Daihatsu Charade.

Yep, but keep in mind that Group B was a messy homologation category at the best of times, and the Charade was Group B category 9, which is quite a bit different from the full fat Group B category 12 cars that most people associate with Group B. It also covered both rally and track-based racing, with some cars never built or homologated with the WRC in mind at all (the Porsche 959 and Ferrari 288 and F40 fall under this) but rather to go track racing. Ultimately however Group B as a circuit class was never popular among manufacturers and was already on its last legs as group B came to an end.

The ironic thing is that as mad as group B cars were on the WRC, it only took a few years for the less powerful Group A cars to overtake them in terms of average stage speeds, as suspension and tyre technology have far more impact on a rally stage that brute power.

 

[MIE1992]

Yep, but keep in mind that Group B was a messy homologation category at the best of times, and the Charade was Group B category 9, which is quite a bit different from the full fat Group B category 12 cars that most people associate with Group B. It also covered both rally and track-based racing, with some cars never built or homologated with the WRC in mind at all (the Porsche 959 and Ferrari 288 and F40 fall under this) but rather to go track racing. Ultimately however Group B as a circuit class was never popular among manufacturers and was already on its last legs as group B came to an end.

The ironic thing is that as mad as group B cars were on the WRC, it only took a few years for the less powerful Group A cars to overtake them in terms of average stage speeds, as suspension and tyre technology have far more impact on a rally stage that brute power.

Neat. I'd love to see a Porsche 911 Gr.B, and/or a Ferrari FF Gr.B to make up for the fact they never did race on those dirt courses. I also wonder how many of the Group B cars that have appeared in prior GT games were only category 9 cars? I could see the Nissan 240RS being one, as it doesn't have one of those elaborate aero kits that I more strongly associate with Group B.

EDIT: It seems like it has something to do with engine displacement. Watch this space, I'm gonna edit my post more to categorize the Group B cars that've already been in GT.

EDIT2: So first-off, each category is based on engine displacement, with it being as follows:

B/12 - 2000cc+
B/11 - 1600-1999cc
B/10 - 1300-1599cc
B/9 - 1299cc or less.

This means that if we use the cars that've already appeared in GT, we'd have the following categorizations:

B/12
Audi Sport Quattro S1
Ford RS200
Lancia Delta S4
Nissan 240RS
Peugeot 205 T16
Renault 5 Maxi Turbo

This is based on this listing. The only one I couldn't really classify would be the Mitsubishi Starion 4WD, as it was only a prototype that never was formally homologated for Group B - but given some of the specs I read on that website's page for Group B prototypes, I could see it fitting into B/12. Also, when one reads that page for the list of B/12 cars, it also means other automakers could have their real-world Group B cars easily join Gr.B, such as those from MG, Mazda, Citroen, Opel, and Toyota. Oh, and Porsche.

EDIT3: I'm also unsure of what should be done for both the prototype Group B cars and the ones that only raced on tarmac, like those from Ferrari and BMW. That's where I think made-for-game rally cars would be ideal - at least for the latter group. I think the M8 (G15) could prove to be a good pick for a made-for-game BMW Gr.B, as it really does seem like the latest evolution for the M1. And like I said, I think other automakers that never competed in Group B could benefit from made-for-game cars, especially those from Lamborghini and Alpine, and especially given the latter's rally heritage.

 

[synon]

I'm really late for this discussion, but better late than never.

Well, as much as I enjoyed the rally time trials on Gran Turismo 2 back when I was a kid, the general interest was slowly decreasing, and now basically no one cares about it on GT Sport. With that said, I feel the rally NEEDS some big improvement for GT7, it absolutely CANNOT be a copy-paste from GT Sport. If it turns out to be that copy-paste, expect yet another failure from PD.

The majority according to this poll anyway want to keep the rallying, which doesn't suggest no one cares about it in GT Sport.

In my opinion, there are two main ways to revive the interest on rally for Gran Turismo 7:

The first one is probably what people are wishing for the most: a proper point-to-point stage system with more in-depth rally features. I'm essentially talking a mini Dirt Rally/WRC inside GT7. That would be more than enough to increase the interest of players, including me.

The second way is "simply" bringing back the classic rally tracks. If they really don't want to create something new, at least bring back some long-running names such as Smokey Mountain, Swiss Alps or Tahiti Maze. These are waaaaaay better rally tracks than the GT Sport ones, plus you get that nostalgia factor.

In short, it's either you go with a major reimagination or with a high dose of nostalgia. I can't see things going well on the other way around.

The drawback to having point to point rally stages is obviously they're of fixed length/duration, and they generally allow only time trialing.

 

[Samus]

I don't see the point of P2P stages with the exception of the special events like PP. Reason being, no matter how well they do it it will always be a sideshow to the main game and as a result it's always going to be lacking compared to focused rally games.

Even if hypothetically they perfectly nailed the physics and track surfaces why would I still want to spend a lot of time in GT Rally mode when it is definitely not going to compare to Dirt Rally and WRC in terms of overall scope?

When you're including dirt racing as a side show in your tarmac game then rallycross style is the obvious choice IMO. You can include unique fictional tracks that are just a little bit of fun away from tarmac racing when a user desires, instead of asking people to do some watered down version of a better game.

It needs to be proper, fun Rallycross though. Not the guff they've included in Sport and other games.

 

[wagnerFAM98]

The majority according to this poll anyway want to keep the rallying, which doesn't suggest no one cares about it in GT Sport.

This is not necessarily the case. I voted to keep the rally on GT7, yet I don't even touch it on GT Sport, and I'm pretty sure more people went with this thinking here. The reason behind this is because we want to see it coming back with improvements, rather than watching it go away.

 

[Samus]

This is not necessarily the case. I voted to keep the rally on GT7, yet I don't even touch it on GT Sport, and I'm pretty sure more people went with this thinking here. The reason behind this is because we want to see it coming back with improvements, rather than watching it go away.

It's also a sample size of 369 people vs total players in the region of 10 million. Nowhere near big enough to draw any conclusions.

 

[MIE1992]

The drawback to having point to point rally stages is obviously they're of fixed length/duration, and they generally allow only time trialing.

Isn't that how it is in real life?

 

[synon]

This is not necessarily the case. I voted to keep the rally on GT7, yet I don't even touch it on GT Sport, and I'm pretty sure more people went with this thinking here. The reason behind this is because we want to see it coming back with improvements, rather than watching it go away.

It's a bit of a jump to assume that everyone who voted to keep it thinks the same as you.

It's also a sample size of 369 people vs total players in the region of 10 million. Nowhere near big enough to draw any conclusions.

That's not how statistics work, the ratio of the sample size to population size isn't really relevant. An estimate of the population parameter interval can be made. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_interval

 

[wagnerFAM98]

It's a bit of a jump to assume that everyone who voted to keep it thinks the same as you.

Nope, I clearly did not say that. I said that I was pretty sure more people who voted to keep the rally shared the same thinking as mine. As far as I know, more people doesn't mean everyone.

 

[synon]

Nope, I clearly did not say that. I said that I was pretty sure more people who voted to keep the rally shared the same thinking as mine. As far as I know, more people doesn't mean everyone.

You said originally "and now basically no one cares about it on GT Sport". If not everyone who voted to keep the rally shared the same thinking as you, then that assertion is incorrect. It would only be true if everyone did share your thinking, which is why I made that point.

 

[gavriliztikus]

I think they should keep it. I don't think there has been a lot done to it though, and the driving could be a bit more dynamic.
However, if all goes bad, just bin it at that point

 

[Dave A]

You said originally "and now basically no one cares about it on GT Sport". If not everyone who voted to keep the rally shared the same thinking as you, then that assertion is incorrect. It would only be true if everyone did share your thinking, which is why I made that point.

Hyperbole?

There is a clear lack of interest in rally in GT Sport from Polyphony Digital down, it's barely used in the game. The clue to the intention of the statement is the word "basically" coming first. To me it doesn't read like he's stating a fact, it reads as an exaggerated observation. People use hyperbole all he time, the trick online is to judge when it's being used and when they're just plain wrong.

Personally I'm on the same wavelength as @wagnerFAM98, I'm not too keen on it's implementation and lack of support in GT Sport, however I do like that rallying has been a part of Gran Turismo since GT2 and would love for it to remain part of the series but be better implemented.

I think in GT5 they started somethnig that could have become special, with the generated point to point stages, it needed a lot of improvement, but it could have ended up being great IMO. It's a shame they seem to have ditched that approach and left it there.

 

[TheCracker]

Keep it, but reconfigure it to rallycross. As it stands it's neither here nor there.

PD have already adapted existing Gran Turismo circuits to make alternative track layouts. They could easily do the same to create their own rallycross-style circuits. Short tracks, short races, small grids and intense racing. It's perfect console fodder.

 

[Tornado]

It's a bit of a jump to assume that everyone who voted to keep it thinks the same as you.

It's quite a bit more of a jump to assume that everyone who voted to keep it has reasoning that is applicable to everyone who buys Gran Turismo games.

That's not how statistics work, the ratio of the sample size to population size isn't really relevant. An estimate of the population parameter interval can be made.

That's nice. It's a shame that confidence interval doesn't apply to this conversation, since GT Planet's Gran Turismo 7 section isn't a random sampling of the population.


This is a poll that is completely irrelevant to any actual direction of the series in the future (and I imagine the majority of the people who voted on it are voting on it and talking about it while knowing that), buried in a part of the forum about a game that hasn't come out yet. The only people who join a fan forum for a specific topic are already ones that are already significantly more invested in it than the layperson (read: the millions of people who buy GT games and then barely play them). The people who join a fan forum and then speculate/discuss what the future of the series should be, especially when knowing that their opinions on it are moot for what will actually happen, are significantly more invested on top of that. I'm not going to get a realistic overall viewpoint of a feature and its role in a game series with lots of casual appeal by asking the most dedicated fans of it about that feature (and then barely getting a clear response anyway) anymore than I'm going to get a realistic viewpoint of the Biden presidency by going on Parlor and taking a straw poll. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection_bias

You said originally "and now basically no one cares about it on GT Sport". If not everyone who voted to keep the rally shared the same thinking as you, then that assertion is incorrect. It would only be true if everyone did share your thinking, which is why I made that point.

You're trying way, way too hard. Devil's advocacy really only works if you're actually trying to make a point, instead of just arguing with someone just for the sake of it. He's explained why he voted the way he did and he's explained the meaning behind his statements despite the seeming contradiction. Continuing to zero in on "WELL YOU ORIGINALLY SAID" even after he's done all that when the only stick you have to beat him on in the first place was that his first post was exaggerated doesn't make you look nearly as clever as you think it does; and instead just makes all of your post come off as an elaborate "um, actually" meme.

 

[MadMax97]

Keep it, but improve the physics of rally and also tarmac racing, especially tyre model

 

[LeGeNd-1]

The rally in GT are bad about their physics primarily. GT2's rally physics back then resemble the physics on GT1, then GT3 and onwards have the soap effect for the cars in rally. I've played Dirt Rally 2.0 and the cars aren't sliding that much like here. GT5 was the one game that has point-to-point system in Gran Turismo Rally, I think that's the step in the right direction.

GT1 didn't have rally, the first time we saw rally was GT2.

IMO the loose surface physics were better in GT2 than what we have now. At least the cars have grip and the nose doesn't just wash out in every corner. I didn't play GT3/4 so couldn't comment on that. From GT5 onwards, they have the current model which barely changed since then. It's a bit silly, when you consider they had Seb Loeb as an "advisor" for the GT5 Rally Special Events.

 

[redbullfix]

Drop it, spreads resources too thin, there are much better rallye games, than GT will ever be

 

[o000o]

GT1 didn't have rally, the first time we saw rally was GT2.

IMO the loose surface physics were better in GT2 than what we have now. At least the cars have grip and the nose doesn't just wash out in every corner. I didn't play GT3/4 so couldn't comment on that. From GT5 onwards, they have the current model which barely changed since then. It's a bit silly, when you consider they had Seb Loeb as an "advisor" for the GT5 Rally Special Events.

Don't misinterpret what I was saying. I know GT1 didn't have rally, and my point was that GT2's rally physics are similar to GT1's road physics.

 

[MadMax97]

Don't misinterpret what I was saying. I know GT1 didn't have rally, and my point was that GT2's rally physics are similar to GT1's road physics.

GT2 improved physics plenty from GT1

 

[Imari]

Agree, but a well done Rally-Cross track can still work.

I feel like if GT must do "rally", then at least rallycross fits the most neatly with the style of the rest of the game while offering something a little bit different. It's still circuit racing, and having a mixed surface at least minimises the impact of the inevitably dodgy dirt physics.

 

[MIE1992]

I really do think we should consider the factor of licensing for the official WRC series. For example, do you think we could still get the likes of the Citroen C4 WRC since it's not necessarily the latest WRC car for that automaker? Or perhaps a Hyundai WRC car from one of the more recent seasons? In other words, I wonder if the licensing for the WRC series applies for just the most recent cars, or if it applies to a certain point in history, like the cars must be a certain number of years old to be non-exclusive to the actual WRC games.

At any rate, I cannot see the Suzuki Escudo Pikes Peak being put into Gr.B, but I could certainly see a "Gr.A" for post-Group B rally cars like that, but also for the Peugeot 208 T16 that was confirmed some time ago for a future GT game. I'd also love to see a "Gr.C" for pre-Group B rally cars, as there are several in GT6 - albeit mainly leftover from GT4 - with the most notable ones being the Lancia Stratos Rally Car and the Mitsubishi Lancer 1600.

I'd also really like to see some automakers in these rally groups - through made-for-game rally cars - that wouldn't be in there otherwise, either because they never did rally or because their rally cars only stuck to tarmac courses, like Ferrari or Lamborghini. The latter seems like a shoe-in, given the Lamborghini Huracan Sterrato concept.

Finally, I really would prefer it if all the non-tarmac circuits were scrapped (but with their tarmac equivalents staying, such as the three tarmac Sardegna courses) and replaced with point-to-point time attack stages. Heck, I could see Circuito de la Sierra returning as a series of point-to-point stages in addition to the full circuit layout, given that in GT6, I recall each segment being quite long.

 

[PJTierney]

Leave rally to rally games

Rallycross however, that deserves more gaming love, whether it be in licensed or unlicensed form.

 

[MIE1992]

Leave rally to rally games

I want to agree, but I also think rally's been part of GT too long for it to be abandoned, being part of the series since the second game. Plus, I actually like GT Sport's idea of Gr.B, as well as other potential classes for rally cars. Not to mention that we'll likely see Pikes Peak in GT7.

 

[PJTierney]

I want to agree, but I also think rally's been part of GT too long for it to be abandoned, being part of the series since the second game. Plus, I actually like GT Sport's idea of Gr.B, as well as other potential classes for rally cars. Not to mention that we'll likely see Pikes Peak in GT7.

Smokey Mountain in Gran Turismo 3 with a SUBARU Impreza is still one of my standout experiences



I'd be totally down for Pikes Peak making a return. It was excellent in DiRT Rally and if Gran Turismo 7 is going to feature any off-road action that's a good place to start (as well as the modern tarmac version).

 

[MIE1992]

I'd be totally down for Pikes Peak making a return. It was excellent in DiRT Rally and if Gran Turismo 7 is going to feature any off-road action that's a good place to start (as well as the modern tarmac version).

Agreed, making rally use point-to-point time attack stages seems more ideal. Another idea I had would be to have the older rally circuits return, alongside those tight city circuits from GT4 where only two cars could be on the course, but turn all those circuits into point-to-point stages.