Rally in Gran Turismo 7: Should it Stay or Go?

[o000o]

Agreed, making rally use point-to-point time attack stages seems more ideal. Another idea I had would be to have the older rally circuits return, alongside those tight city circuits from GT4 where only two cars could be on the course, but turn all those circuits into point-to-point stages.

Still too wide and short, but GT5's Gran Turismo Rally is a step in the right direction regarding rally to implement actual point-to-point time attack stages.

 

[Samus]

Still too wide and short, but GT5's Gran Turismo Rally is a step in the right direction regarding rally to implement actual point-to-point time attack stages.

Not really. Who on earth is going to prefer playing stages like those within GT5, even with great physics, when they could play Dirt or WRC where it's done 1000x better with so much more realism and depth? Surely only those who can't afford all of the games but for those of us that can, they have little appeal.

 

[Tornado]

I felt that the GT5 system was a dramatic improvement from what PD had done before and the first time it had been truly fun (which made it a true shame that even though the execution was so much better, the implementation into the game structure was so awful); and I really couldn't care less about the Dirt or WRC games.

 

[o000o]

Not really. Who on earth is going to prefer playing stages like those within GT5, even with great physics, when they could play Dirt or WRC where it's done 1000x better with so much more realism and depth? Surely only those who can't afford all of the games but for those of us that can, they have little appeal.

Dude I already said it myself "still too wide and short". And my comparison was only to what PD has done before, regardless of other existing rally franchise like Dirt and WRC (and I play Dirt Rally 2.0).

 

[Dave A]

Not really. Who on earth is going to prefer playing stages like those within GT5, even with great physics, when they could play Dirt or WRC where it's done 1000x better with so much more realism and depth? Surely only those who can't afford all of the games but for those of us that can, they have little appeal.

It was still a step in the right direction, the idea they had for GT5 was excellent, it was just implemented badly. I wished they had kept that going for GT6 with improvements, but we haven't seen that approach since. The rally in GT5 had plenty of flaws, but the idea had bags of potential and with the right tweaks it could have been absolutely excellent. Yes there were too many stages that were long, wide and almost a straight line but that can be ironed out with a bit more work and experience with that tech. But they won't get more experience from ditching it, so I'd have preferred they endured for a couple of games to get it right.

 

[MadMax97]

GT5 rally style would be the best for GT7

 

[DefNotJake]

Not really. Who on earth is going to prefer playing stages like those within GT5, even with great physics, when they could play Dirt or WRC where it's done 1000x better with so much more realism and depth? Surely only those who can't afford all of the games but for those of us that can, they have little appeal.

By that logic, Polyphony should just get rid of Sport mode because it's just an unrealistic version of iRacing with less depth. Believe it or not, Some people just want to play a racing game on their couch and have fun, and have no care in the world if it's 100% realistic.

One of the things I loved about GT5's rally event was being able to build up my own rally car using any car I wanted inside of the regulations, and tune the settings to the best of my ability for the stage or terrain. Yes, it wasn't perfect (indestructible track limits posts were dumb) but if it was expanded upon and updated to the current decade, it could be a really unique experience.

 

[MIE1992]

By that logic, Polyphony should just get rid of Sport mode because it's just an unrealistic version of iRacing with less depth. Believe it or not, Some people just want to play a racing game on their couch and have fun, and have no care in the world if it's 100% realistic.

One of the things I loved about GT5's rally event was being able to build up my own rally car using any car I wanted inside of the regulations, and tune the settings to the best of my ability for the stage or terrain. Yes, it wasn't perfect (indestructible track limits posts were dumb) but if it was expanded upon and updated to the current decade, it could be a really unique experience.

Agreed. I don't think GT is meant to be the best sim in the world like Assetto Corsa Competizione, rFactor, or iRacing, but rather something more accessible. (EDIT: I thought GT Sport and its Sport Mode was relatively perfect as a more accessible version of iRacing, and I really do hope it gets expanded upon in GT7, such as with more variety of events/regulations.)

I really did like GT5's rally event - but perhaps instead of randomly-generated courses, they could use pre-designed courses, both real and original, with Pikes Peak being an example of the former.

EDIT2: If it's really true that GT has the exclusive license to Pikes Peak, then I think it's highly likely we'll see a special event in the campaign just for Pikes Peak. I also hope the Goodwood Hillclimb - and circuit - make a return, as well. If both a Goodwood and Pikes Peak event appears in GT7, I wonder what cars we could see getting assigned to us? No doubt that the Pikes Peak event will have us use the Peugeot 208 T16 that was confirmed years ago, and the Tajima E-Runner could be a likely car for us too, if that one returns.

As for the Goodwood Hillclimb, I could see it mostly being like GT6, except with even more emphasis on various vintage models. I could see that pre-war Alfa Romeo we've seen in the GT7 reveal trailer being either a car we'll need to use, or being a prize car. Another idea could be that we'll be tasked with selecting a car ourselves for the event, rather than using an assigned car. Each stage could have a certain decade and class assigned to it, and the goal would be to set the best time as possible with a completely stock vehicle, going all the way up to Gr.1. Though maybe there could be vehicle restrictions as well, not unlike other campaign events like Boxer Spirit or the J-Sports Meeting. The top group could be a Gr.X event where only one car is permitted, and that'd probably be the Red Bull X2019 Competition or something, whereas in GT6, the last car used was the X2010 Prototype.

I suppose my point being, is that in GT6, the assigned cars for the Goodwood event included both the Group B-spec Audi Sport Quattro, and a road car that's known for rallying, the Lancia Stratos, and I think those two could be better-suited to a Pikes Peak event, whereas if the Goodwood event returns, we wouldn't really see any rally cars (or road cars based around rallying) as much. But then again, it is a hillclimb, so who knows? One thing I think for sure is that I doubt the Goodwood event will assign more than one made-for-game car, with a Red Bull car likely being the sole exception; I don't foresee a future iteration of the Goodwood hillclimb assigning us the Alfa Romeo 4C Gr.3 Road Car, or the Hyundai Genesis Gr.B Rally Car for examples.

But I digress - this is all just speculation. I just hope both the Goodwood hillclimb and circuit courses return - even if the former doesn't get a special event like it did in GT6.

 

[Imari]

I felt that the GT5 system was a dramatic improvement from what PD had done before and the first time it had been truly fun (which made it a true shame that even though the execution was so much better, the implementation into the game structure was so awful); and I really couldn't care less about the Dirt or WRC games.

It was better, but better compared to what rally was in GT2-4 isn't really saying that much. In broader terms the GT5 system was nothing to write home about, it was built on some potentially interesting ideas but the implementation meant that it was pretty awful to play.

By that logic, Polyphony should just get rid of Sport mode because it's just an unrealistic version of iRacing with less depth. Believe it or not, Some people just want to play a racing game on their couch and have fun, and have no care in the world if it's 100% realistic.

It doesn't have to be 100% realistic, but if people don't care about realism at all and just want fun on the couch then they're buying Forza Horizon or Need for Speed, not Gran Turismo. Gran Turismo is never going to be a hardcore simulation because that's not the intent, but at the same time having a rally mode that bears no resemblance to real rally at all with physics that aren't even anywhere near rally games released on PS2 doesn't seem like it really suits the series either.

Gran Turismo is built around finding a middle ground that is appealing to a wide range of people and offering a wide range of content. A competent rally section fits nicely into that. A poor rally section is a waste of everyone's time - sure, a few people might enjoy it but all that development effort could have gone into making or improving something else that a majority of the players would find appealing.

If Gran Turismo can't make a rally section where the gameplay can be sensibly compared in quality to the offroad sections of Forza Horizon (a game that very clearly forgoes realism for fun) then they shouldn't be bothering. I'd consider that to be a minimum bar that they should be clearing, and there's a long way to go.

 

[synon]

That's nice. It's a shame that confidence interval doesn't apply to this conversation, since GT Planet's Gran Turismo 7 section isn't a random sampling of the population.

That's nice, but I was talking specifically about dismissing it due to the sample size compared to the population size.

This is a poll that is completely irrelevant to any actual direction of the series in the future (and I imagine the majority of the people who voted on it are voting on it and talking about it while knowing that), buried in a part of the forum about a game that hasn't come out yet. The only people who join a fan forum for a specific topic are already ones that are already significantly more invested in it than the layperson (read: the millions of people who buy GT games and then barely play them). The people who join a fan forum and then speculate/discuss what the future of the series should be, especially when knowing that their opinions on it are moot for what will actually happen, are significantly more invested on top of that. I'm not going to get a realistic overall viewpoint of a feature and its role in a game series with lots of casual appeal by asking the most dedicated fans of it about that feature (and then barely getting a clear response anyway) anymore than I'm going to get a realistic viewpoint of the Biden presidency by going on Parlor and taking a straw poll. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection_bias

If anything, casual players aren't going to be bothered about "rally" mode not representing a real life stage rallying

You're trying way, way too hard. Devil's advocacy really only works if you're actually trying to make a point

eh? What makes you think I was playing devil's advocate?

instead of just arguing with someone just for the sake of it.

I wasn't, unlike you seemingly want to do lol

Continuing to zero in on "WELL YOU ORIGINALLY SAID" even after he's done all that when the only stick you have to beat him on in the first place was that his first post was exaggerated doesn't make you look nearly as clever as you think it does; and instead just makes all of your post come off as an elaborate "um, actually" meme.

I don't think you followed the conversation carefully enough. He replied "This is not necessarily the case", so I repeated his point to add context as to why I replied as I did.

Hyperbole?

There is a clear lack of interest in rally in GT Sport from Polyphony Digital down, it's barely used in the game. The clue to the intention of the statement is the word "basically" coming first. To me it doesn't read like he's stating a fact, it reads as an exaggerated observation. People use hyperbole all he time, the trick online is to judge when it's being used and when they're just plain wrong.

Personally I'm on the same wavelength as @wagnerFAM98, I'm not too keen on it's implementation and lack of support in GT Sport, however I do like that rallying has been a part of Gran Turismo since GT2 and would love for it to remain part of the series but be better implemented.

I think in GT5 they started somethnig that could have become special, with the generated point to point stages, it needed a lot of improvement, but it could have ended up being great IMO. It's a shame they seem to have ditched that approach and left it there.

Yeah, I didn't take him literally, and I in turn wasn't being totally literal either.

As Samus says, stage rallying is done pretty comprehensively in other dedicated rally games, to my mind having something different in GT is preferable.

 

[Imari]

If anything, casual players aren't going to be bothered about "rally" mode not representing a real life stage rallying

So why call it rally at all then? Why not call it "Dirty Slidey Fun Times with Ya Boi, Kaz"?

The whole point of having something called "rally" is to have it be at least superficially like the thing that every other human uses that word to describe.

As Samus says, stage rallying is done pretty comprehensively in other dedicated rally games, to my mind having something different in GT is preferable.

Sure, and there's lots of facets of rally sport that they could choose that don't get nearly enough coverage in other games. Sliding around a racetrack that's 8 cars wide and grips like anime touge roads is not any of them. Do rallycross. Do gymkhanas. Do stadium trucks or some other short course dirt madness. Do destruction derbies if you want something fun and light hearted, figure 8 dirt tracks are hilarious.

There's a million ways to make a fun rally mode. Pick one that's a.) actually fun and b.) true to the "realism" theme of the entire rest of the game.

 

[PJTierney]

Why not call it "Dirty Slidey Fun Times with Ya Boi, Kaz"?

...because that’s the name of our next game at Codemasters

 

[synon]

So why call it rally at all then? Why not call it "Dirty Slidey Fun Times with Ya Boi, Kaz"?

The whole point of having something called "rally" is to have it be at least superficially like the thing that every other human uses that word to describe.

What's in a name? lol

I kind of understand your point, but I don't fully agree that calling it "rally" means it has to be like a particular motorsport rally

Sure, and there's lots of facets of rally sport that they could choose that don't get nearly enough coverage in other games. Sliding around a racetrack that's 8 cars wide and grips like anime touge roads is not any of them. Do rallycross. Do gymkhanas. Do stadium trucks or some other short course dirt madness. Do destruction derbies if you want something fun and light hearted, figure 8 dirt tracks are hilarious.

There's a million ways to make a fun rally mode. Pick one that's a.) actually fun and b.) true to the "realism" theme of the entire rest of the game.

"a.) actually fun"
That's obviously pretty subjective
"b.) true to the "realism" theme of the entire rest of the game."
More realism in terms of having to mirror real-life motorsport events I don't think is that necessary.

 

[o000o]

What's in a name? lol

I kind of understand your point, but say if they called it offroad/dirt then would more people now accept it as it is? Are people getting that influenced by the word "rally" being in its name?



"a.) actually fun"
That's obviously pretty subjective
"b.) true to the "realism" theme of the entire rest of the game."
More realism in terms of having to mirror real-life motorsport events I don't think is that necessary.

Well, have you played a rally game that is more on hardcore sim level like DiRT Rally? Those games don't have extensive soap effect like GT does in rally. Personally I do feel that time attack point-to-point rally is more fun to differentiate it for circuit races, where rally circuit in GT feels like usual race but more sliding.

 

[synon]

Well, have you played a rally game that is more on hardcore sim level like DiRT Rally? Those games don't have extensive soap effect like GT does in rally. Personally I do feel that time attack point-to-point rally is more fun to differentiate it for circuit races, where rally circuit in GT feels like usual race but more sliding.

Yeah I've played RBR but it was a fairly long time ago so I'm not too certain how the physics compares.

I prefer racing to the time trial nature of point to point, and I quite like sliding around on a wide circuit lol

 

[dimassa19]

Speaking of rally, the Extreme E is about to start, and - by the way - it would be nice to have at least the Maestro Team car (X44) in the GT7.

 

[Imari]

What's in a name? lol

I kind of understand your point, but I don't fully agree that calling it "rally" means it has to be like a particular motorsport rally

I mean, why have words that have meanings at all? Calling it rally clearly is intended to convey something to the players, hence the reference to "Dirty Slidey Fun Times with Ya Boi, Kaz". If it's not like any rally discipline, then calling it rally is intentionally misleading.

"a.) actually fun"
That's obviously pretty subjective

Sure, and people like all sorts of things, so perhaps that's not the best phrasing on my part. But if we take it objectively, I think we can all agree that at best GT rally modes are pretty uninspired. I'm not into shooters, but I can look at something like Doom and think "wow, that looks pretty awesome". I could see someone not familiar with driving games having a similar response to rally in Forza Horizon, but I find it hard to see how someone would be excited by this:

"b.) true to the "realism" theme of the entire rest of the game."
More realism in terms of having to mirror real-life motorsport events I don't think is that necessary.

I'd settle for realism in terms of the track surface behaving something like the dirt texture applied to it, and tracks that would potentially really be used to hold a racing event of some sort.

I appreciate that you seem to feel that Gran Turismo doesn't need any particular attachment to realism, but the truth is that's been a mainstay of the series for nearly 25 years. If you take the realism aspect away then it's hard to say that it's the same game series that so many people fell in love with. That's fine, but then maybe don't call it Gran Turismo. Or at least call it Gran Turismo: Extreme Edition or something.

Yeah I've played RBR but it was a fairly long time ago so I'm not too certain how the physics compares.

Not well, especially considering that RBR came out in 2004.

 

[Johan]

Let’s be honest. The rallying in Gran Turismo has never been very good, has it? Actually, I’d like to say it’s been bloody awful, but that’s me. I’ve hardly even touched it in GT Sport.

I say leave rallying to the Dirt and WRC games, but what do you say? Do we need it to take up space in yet another GT title?

Develop!

Even though it’s been more rallycross than rally, I’ve enjoyed several of the gravel courses since the late 90’s and every rally-esque tarmac course that has appeared in the GT universe.

The physics on gravel and snow needs (a lot of) work, but Citta di Aria, Amalfi, Chamonix and Pikes Peak were some of the most demanding and rewarding courses in my opinion. Far too short, but still.

 

[Imari]

The physics on gravel and snow needs (a lot of) work, but Citta di Aria, Amalfi, Chamonix and Pikes Peak were some of the most demanding and rewarding courses in my opinion. Far too short, but still.

Try Pikes Peak in Dirt Rally, it's substantially better than it ever was in GT. I've spent a lot of time on it because it's amazing.



If you enjoy driving on gravel and snow you're much better off with Dirt Rally or WRC than Gran Turismo. If you just want those specific courses and aren't that fussed about physics then you're probably stuck with GT, but it's a gamble whether they'll even include the courses you like in any new GT game.

 

[Samus]

Saw someone mention Extreme E in another topic and I guess that might actually be something PD can unofficially mimic, it's probably the most similar dirt racing to what they've done in past games, other than the all-electric part. So if they remove that aspect (Or add electric cars to their own group) to allow all of their regular rally cars but mimic the rest of the format it could work. Relatively short, "circuit" races with multiple cars.

Try Pikes Peak in Dirt Rally, it's substantially better than it ever was in GT. I've spent a lot of time on it because it's amazing.

..and sadly it's not in Dirt Rally 2 precisely because of PD and their exclusive license, despite them not even using it. Really annoying.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Try Pikes Peak in Dirt Rally, it's substantially better than it ever was in GT. I've spent a lot of time on it because it's amazing.



If you enjoy driving on gravel and snow you're much better off with Dirt Rally or WRC than Gran Turismo. If you just want those specific courses and aren't that fussed about physics then you're probably stuck with GT, but it's a gamble whether they'll even include the courses you like in any new GT game.

I've never really cared much for Pikes Peak to be honest. I won't be upset if it isn't included in GT7.

 

[ICEYOU3]

Keep it, but refine the hell out of it?

 

[SnakeOfBacon]

Every GT has had excellent Dirt/Snow courses, (or Rally, as in SEGA Rally ) they've usually been underutilised, though. GT2-4 having a bunch of 1-on-1 races for them was about as well as they've been used in GT mode. GT5's new Chamonix, Tuscany, and my favourite, Eiger Nordwand K Trail are great to drive on but with almost nothing to do on them in the campaign.
Fisherman's Ranch in Sport is similar, huge, fantastic course for WRXs and pickup trucks, Gr. B not as much.

For me, the real appeal of dirt courses is hotlapping and split screen, where they're still good fun, keep them for 7! With pits and day/night cycles!

 

[Imari]

I've never really cared much for Pikes Peak to be honest. I won't be upset if it isn't included in GT7.

Which is totally fair, but it does suck if in not including it all Polyphony have done is lock other games out. I understand that it might not be for everyone, I understand that some people might not care or even want it in "their" game. But if the upshot is that no current game has this hugely iconic track because the exclusive license holder would rather just sit on it that feels pretty nasty.

I mean, if Codies got an exclusive license to the Nordschliefe and then didn't put it in any games there'd be a lot of people screaming bloody murder. And again, rightly so, because that's an eggplant move.

I think by making the exclusive licensing move on such an iconic track Polyphony have more or less locked themselves into including it unless they want to piss a lot of people off.

 

[Marl85]

Get rid of it. its never seemed to work well and im forced to do it in gt7, please atleast make it a seperate part of the game. i like rally cars on pavment but on dirt GT dropped the ball. there are missions that seem impossible to get bronze never mind gold. and plus Racing hard tires in rally missions seems stupid, why did they do that

 

[Monkey Man]

Well, I whinged for years about the rally surfaces from GT4 onwards and whilst I can't speak for GTS, having skipped it, there seems to be a huge improvement now.

The tyres actually seem to "dig in" as opposed to the previous problem of skidding across the hard surfaces covered in pebbles that those GT's provided.

 

[Marl85]

Well, I whinged for years about the rally surfaces from GT4 onwards and whilst I can't speak for GTS, having skipped it, there seems to be a huge improvement now.

The tyres actually seem to "dig in" as opposed to the previous problem of skidding across the hard surfaces covered in pebbles that those GT's provided.

Maybe but in the license tests I did and the missions. The cars seem to have racing hards on them so I'm not sure how good the tires are since I haven't used them yet

 

[Monkey Man]

Yeah, that's just a bug that'll be fixed soon mate.

 

[Marl85]

Oh really. That's good news

 

[Monkey Man]

Yup, I expect it'll be fixed in the next update.

From the GTP thread:

In certain events of the Licenses, Missions, and Circuit Experience, the specified tyres are not equipped on the vehicle and as a consequence those events are difficult to clear. The following is a list of events where this issue occurs:

　■ Licences
　[A-8] Dirt Driving: Beginner
　[IB-5] Dirt Driving: Intermediate
　[IA-3] Dirt Driving: Expert
　[S-5] One Lap Time Attack

　■ Missions
　The Magic Mountain
　　・Jeep Night Safari

　Beyond the Horizon
　　・Beginner Drifting 1
　　・American Wilderness

　Rolling Stone
　　・Beginner Drifting 2

　Moby Dick
　　・Pylon Cone Knockdown 2
　　・Intermediate Drifting 1

　Gone with the Wind
　　・Divine moves on the Spa
　　・Intermediate Drifting 2

　The Sun Also Rises
　　・The White Winged Beast
　　・Expert Drifting

　■ Circuit Experiences
　Colorado Springs
　Fishermans Ranch
　Sardegna - Windmills