Realism vs. Realism and Driver Aids

[Shinzah]

Almost all the aids present in GT5 are banned in most of the major categories of motorsports for a reason. In the real world are there to make road legal cars more secure and easier to drive(noob friendly), not to make them faster but slower and predictable to save lives.

See what option fits better in your idea of fun.

I want a list.

I want a list of every motorsport which bans ABS and TCS, exempting of course stock car racing and historicals.

I also want a list of every championship winning car in said motorsport that used absolutely no interesting/helpfull technologies.

Infact, dare I say it because it'll start a whole other debate;

ABS. First developed on race cars. (Well airplanes. But moved to race cars afterwards, this is largely unconfirmed, since Mercedes *thinks* it was the first car with ABS, but im relatively certain that certain vehicles of a competing german make in lemans, many decades prior, was the first use of ABS in motorsport.)

TCS. Used in all forms of higher level motorsport since 1971. Banned in two high level motorsports (All NASCAR touring series, all Formula 1 and sattelite series.) Used EXTENSIVELY in sports car racing, which is mostly the kind of cars in Gran Turismo.



The whole theory that every race car is somehow a kubelwagen with a rollcage and a v6-10-12 is so completely nonsensical. If it was true. These cars would be so much harder to fix, cost a fraction as much, and look a whole lot uglier.

A sports prototype with no ABS and in some series (alms and GA excluded, as in certain classes TCS is restricted) no TCS? Thats preposterous. These cars cost hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars to produce, to even assume that many wont have thirty year old, simple, technologies is absurd. All your doing is trying to justify making a videogame harder to play.

Which is fine, I drive no aids too, much of the time. However. I have no problem using them, at all, when I want to. And I don't think it makes me less of a driver because I use a technology in the "Perfect" conditions scenario. The whole game is a "Perfect Conditions" Scenario.

 

[danben7]

If you want fun, all aids off + a wheel and pedals
If you want the fastest times, then you need to use a combination of some of the aids on and most off.
If you have lots of aids on, well, maybe you're using the controller and a really difficult car to drive or are just a beginner.

Whatever it is, you play your game how you like.

I like playing without aids so i'll make online races where you cannot use them at all.

Personally i'd like so see some seasonal events where aids are completely restricted, and another where aids are mandatory, just to see how people compete.

 

[RODDUZ]

If you want to use aids use them. People without aids that are genuinely good enough will beat the racers with aids on anyway as their car can go faster. The only ones that moan are the ones that aint good enough to have the aids off; but still do have them off and end up losing to people with aids on. These people should stop thinking they're good and sticka few aids on until you are good enough to turn them off. Simples!

 

[niky]

I never claimed it was more realistic.

" ... claiming that using [GT's aids] is a realistic analogy to [real-world aids] is just as false as claiming (for those same cars) that driving with no aids at all is realistic."

Apologies for the monster post.

Quite all right.. you saved me having to post something similar.

You've hit upon a good point, though. The GT-R is monstrously fast in real-life not because of aids like ASM or TCS, which do slow it down (many owners turn off VDC (Vehicle Dynamic Control) for racetrack use). What really makes it quick is the trick differentials and electronic differential control.

GT's TCS allows way too little wheel slip to be beneficial in all situations. TCS 1 is the most that's bearable for anything short of a Cerbera Speed12 on comfort tires in the rain. TCS 5 is just dog slow.

GT's ASM is also way too polite. It's a fair bit better than ESC systems on most road cars, but a far cry from something like Porsche's own PASM. And I'm of the opinion that that works because 911s are so naturally unstable that anything helps... ...though traditional brake-implemented ASM systems can be beneficial on road cars and race cars, newer systems that work via e-diffs are much, much better... and keep speeds up.

GT's best trick is still the letter-perfect ABS.

For me, getting the "feel" of realism means picking your battles and adjusting each car to suit. But when racing, I don't feel the need to unnecessarily handicap myself. And in GT5, everything except ABS, the barest minimum of TCS (and most of the times, none) is a handicap.

SRF, as it tweaks the physics engine, though, is just plain cheating.

 

[FanBoy08]

I don't use any of the driving aids unless the car is impossible to manage (the FGT for instance) because I can go a lot faster without them. And it's more fun

 

[mykem]

IIRC, there's a no slicks rule on public days at the 'Ring, but you can run slicks on closed track days.

Edit...

There will be plenty of people on this forum who can manage full laps of the Ring in an Enzo on sports hard (the tyres it comes with standard) without TC/ASM/SR. A few weeks ago some of us were running on-line races at Daytona road course in a standard Vette on N3's in GT5P (equivalent to comfort soft tyres in GT5) with no aids other than ABS... and the Vette would power oversteer at 170mph on the Daytona banking If you could manage 10 laps of that under on-line pressures you'd have no problems managing the Enzo on sports tyres.

It's not about being a purist, it's about enjoying the challenge and testing your skills

The first night I bought the Enzo I ran it on the Nordschleife with Comfort Soft (N3) tires. It's fun as hell and I managed around 7min53sec about a second faster then the ZR1 (also using N3). The ABS was at the normal "1" (while the brake sensitivity/bias set to 4(F):3(R) and all the other aids was off. What makes the experience more glorious was the fact that my G25 was set to the max "10".

 

[mani_23]

I use things like traction control and abs, because they should be used. In many high powered cars they are fitted with TCS just because the power is more then needed and can be dangerous. Many higher performance cars are also being fitted with abs just because they need to be stopped when going at high speeds, without the risk of a wheel locking up and making the car spin out. I keep my abs to 1 just because I find the wheels lock in gt5 too easily. Traction control can be put on by whoever.

Technically, on a real track, driving aids go off (For huge majority of enthusiasts), because many aids do actually limit the car. So as for which is more realistic, I do think that most aids off is actually more realistic. Since your on a track.

I find things like ASM a bit of a no-no in my book, for almost all my cars except for the Chapperal 2J I never keep it on, because its almost the equivalent of skid recovery force. So I understand people not being accepting of ASM.

 

[JJ72]

A sports prototype with no ABS and in some series (alms and GA excluded, as in certain classes TCS is restricted) no TCS? Thats preposterous. These cars cost hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars to produce, to even assume that many wont have thirty year old, simple, technologies is absurd. All your doing is trying to justify making a videogame harder to play.

It's not absurd when you consider driving aids as an element that dilutes difference in driving performance. Formula 1 does not have Traction control and ABS currently because it chose to emphasis more on driving skill, however it did have them, so it's not a question of "because average road cars have it, racing cars should have it too."

I'll give you a short list of motorsport discipline that doesn't run TCS and ABS:

WRC, WTCC, BTCC, SuperGT, V8 Supercars, ARCA, NASCAR etc.

 

[Zer0]

I want a list.

I want a list of every motorsport which bans ABS and TCS, exempting of course stock car racing and historicals.

F1, JGTC, WTCC, DTM, WRC, etc...

http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2008/2/7393.html

 

[Bigbazz]

To be fair, in the real world if you had a Ferrari 458 italia you would be driving it with aids on most of the time, sure you might turn them off for some fun, but you would go faster with them on, a real race driver wants to win, so he would put them on.

In a game its different, some people see them as a lack of skill, other see it as an unfair advantage. Skid Force Recovery is the only game breaking one, as it can considerably improve your cornering speeds, while promoting bad driving. So faster laps with bad driving.

I generally don't use them, but I have used them and some can make cars more enjoyable, sometimes you dont want to have to perfectly control your throttle, you might not be in the mood for it. The mood you're in, state of mind has a huge influence on your driving skill and even style. That said i've not used driving aids for quite some time, i did initially use it on some cars that i found horrible to drive. Having learned to drive sims using iRacing and Rfactor i have become used to not having them on, i find for the most part it makes the experience more enjoyable.


In racing, F1 has had traction control (banned in 2008) at times through the last 20 years or so, along with active suspension (banned in 1994), continiously variable transmission(was banned right away)...The current F1 car has none of those things.

 

[Shinzah]

It's not absurd when you consider driving aids as an element that dilutes difference in driving performance. Formula 1 does not have Traction control and ABS currently because it chose to emphasis more on driving skill, however it did have them, so it's not a question of "because average road cars have it, racing cars should have it too."

I'll give you a short list of motorsport discipline that doesn't run TCS and ABS:

WRC, WTCC, BTCC, SuperGT, V8 Supercars, ARCA, NASCAR etc.

Akshully F1 removed TCS for entirely different reasons, mostly eluded to the elitists of this thread. It had nothing to do with "Focusing on driving skill." if F1 focused on driving skill, underclass teams would be competitive with great drivers, case in point, Kobayashi.

WRC may have ABS.

WTCC and BTCC don't have enough power to justify TCS.

Super GT 300 may use ABS, again the power is not enough to justify TCS, even in the 500 category. The only brake restriction in GT 300 is Ceramic brakes. GT 300 cars are the relative cars closest to the core GT experience, 200 to 300 horsepower japanese domestics. All cars in that series are based, roughly, on roadgoing cars and may use most of the technologies from those cars. Including ABS. Though the speed is not really high enough to need it, several of the cars in this class do/have used ABS to some proficiency. Including the Shiden.

V8 supercars, and all its subsidaries are generally friends of NASCAR and all its subsidaries. Its really just an international form of stock car racing. The cars are purpose built and use braking packages not availible on road cars. Therefore case of ABS is mute brake locking is a little more difficult in these cars and drivers use a specific stock car discipline to drive them, the reason why TCS is not used is because of the unfair ADVANTAGE it creates in a high powered RWD V8 stock car, likening all of those remaining series to "Stock" cars, which is exactly what they are.

 

[Stephen220378]

Akshully F1 removed TCS for entirely different reasons, mostly eluded to the elitists of this thread. It had nothing to do with "Focusing on driving skill." if F1 focused on driving skill, underclass teams would be competitive with great drivers, case in point, Kobayashi.

WRC may have ABS.

WTCC and BTCC don't have enough power to justify TCS.

Super GT 300 may use ABS, again the power is not enough to justify TCS, even in the 500 category. The only brake restriction in GT 300 is Ceramic brakes. GT 300 cars are the relative cars closest to the core GT experience, 200 to 300 horsepower japanese domestics. All cars in that series are based, roughly, on roadgoing cars and may use most of the technologies from those cars. Including ABS. Though the speed is not really high enough to need it, several of the cars in this class do/have used ABS to some proficiency. Including the Shiden.

V8 supercars, and all its subsidaries are generally friends of NASCAR and all its subsidaries. Its really just an international form of stock car racing. The cars are purpose built and use braking packages not availible on road cars. Therefore case of ABS is mute brake locking is a little more difficult in these cars and drivers use a specific stock car discipline to drive them, the reason why TCS is not used is because of the unfair ADVANTAGE it creates in a high powered RWD V8 stock car, likening all of those remaining series to "Stock" cars, which is exactly what they are.

Actually the F1 ban on traction control was for numerous reasons, which did include placing more of an emphasis on driver skill and punishing driver errors. The other reasons were to slow down the cars in the corners, something the FIA is always striving to do due to safety reasons and the final reason was to cut team costs.

 

[oohhh yeah]

Zero assists here, the way you separate the men from the boys.

 

[JJ72]

Akshully F1 removed TCS for entirely different reasons, mostly eluded to the elitists of this thread. It had nothing to do with "Focusing on driving skill." if F1 focused on driving skill, underclass teams would be competitive with great drivers, case in point, Kobayashi.

The fact that F1 has a performance gap between teams has nothing to do with it not being skill orientated rules wise??

It IS about the focus on driving skill at least when a single car is concerned, it's just that F1 isn't a Single Spec Formula (which in it's principle should and will never be) and hence there's a performance gap between stronger and weaker teams.

By your logic, Group B rallying can't be skill orientated because the Nissian 240RS can never keep up with the Audi Quattro.

 

[Shinzah]

Actually the F1 ban on traction control was for numerous reasons, which did include placing more of an emphasis on driver skill and punishing driver errors. The other reasons were to slow down the cars in the corners, something the FIA is always striving to do due to safety reasons and the final reason was to cut team costs.

The main reason TCS was removed was to slow the cars down.

It still had nothing to do with driver skill. FIA's assumption that a harder car to drive is a more slow one went up in smoke.

The biggest change in F1 had to do with the engine breaking removal. Which WAS to do with driver skill.

Despite all the bantering at the bargain table, FIA removed TCS simply because they didn't want to enforce TCS anymore, and the cars had moved from fast engines to the same ones used in far lesser series in another effort to help teams.

FIA couldn't give a crap about teams and driver skill in F1. All they want is to make the fans happy, and make more money, and have manufacturers chug millions into car development to win championships that bring fans that are happy to give them money. Every change they've made the past five years has DESTROYED formula 1 racing. Leaving the only interesting part of the last season the fact that it was dominated by privateer-turned-factory-team Redbull Renault. Which in the last decent season of F1 was in much....Greener cars.

 

[JJ72]

Well I see we are sucked into another technical discussion which has nothing to do with the original topic now....

 

[Stephen220378]

The main reason TCS was removed was to slow the cars down.

It still had nothing to do with driver skill. FIA's assumption that a harder car to drive is a more slow one went up in smoke.

The biggest change in F1 had to do with the engine breaking removal. Which WAS to do with driver skill.

Despite all the bantering at the bargain table, FIA removed TCS simply because they didn't want to enforce TCS anymore, and the cars had moved from fast engines to the same ones used in far lesser series in another effort to help teams.

FIA couldn't give a crap about teams and driver skill in F1. All they want is to make the fans happy, and make more money, and have manufacturers chug millions into car development to win championships that bring fans that are happy to give them money. Every change they've made the past five years has DESTROYED formula 1 racing. Leaving the only interesting part of the last season the fact that it was dominated by privateer-turned-factory-team Redbull Renault. Which in the last decent season of F1 was in much....Greener cars.

Destroyed F1? Maybe you were watching something totally different to what I watched last season because it was the most exciting F1 season in decades.

Onto the FIA wanting to make money, like it or not, Formula 1 is a product, a product which must be sold to the fans and sponsors. Without teams making sponsor money they'll fold, there's countries queuing up to host F1 races and the ones chosen to do so pay a lot of money for the privledge of doing so. Teams are starting to sign drivers for purely sponsorship money they can bring in, take Pastor Maldonado replacing Nico Hulkenberg at Williams. F1 is and always will be about money because when it's not you'll have no F1 anymore.

Anyway this discussion is better suited to a different forum so I'll end it there before the thread turns into a real motorsport debate instead of driving aids in a video game.

 

[Zer0]

WRC may have ABS.

Super GT 300 may use ABS, again the power is not enough to justify TCS, even in the 500 category. The only brake restriction in GT 300 is Ceramic brakes. GT 300 cars are the relative cars closest to the core GT experience, 200 to 300 horsepower japanese domestics. All cars in that series are based, roughly, on roadgoing cars and may use most of the technologies from those cars. Including ABS. Though the speed is not really high enough to need it, several of the cars in this class do/have used ABS to some proficiency. Including the Shiden.

WRC S2000:
- Any electronic driving aid system (as well as its sensors) is
prohibited (ABS / ASR / EPS &#8230.

Super GT500:
Electronic aids such as ABS, Traction Control and Stability control are not allowed even if fitted to the road going variant and carbon fiber brakes are prohibited. There are also restrictions regarding placement and size of aerodynamic aids such as wings and spoilers. The choice of tyres is also varied with Bridgestone, Yokohama, Dunlop, Kumho, Michelin and Hankook (new for 2006) available to teams.

Sincerely, it would be more easy to do a list of disciplines that allow any sort of driving aid, almost all the top variants in the major motorsports ban the use of electronic aids, maybe the minor competitions allow some of them but that only confirms that is an entry level option.

 

[JJ72]

Back on the topic I have something to add:

Neither turning on or turning off the aids is realistic, even if the real car have such driving aids, and here's why:

In real life there are many different way to implement a system, say for TCS, some works by cutting the throttle, some by cutting the ignition, some by applying brakes; the universal TCS system in GT5 just couldn't replicate the real action.

Even with the same system, the algorithm used by the real car wouldn't exist in GT5, hence all argument that either the game is more realistic with aids on/aids off is equally weak.

If you are a true realism freak, remember not to go above 155mph on the M3 because it is electronically limited to that ,but afterall as this is just a game.

I think in the end it's just a personal reference, people who want a challenge should turn them off, people who needs some assistance or don't want to devote 100% of their attention on car control can have them on. It has nothing to do with realism.

 

[Sohvakettu]

"1.6 Electronic Systems
1.6.1 Any automatic or electronic control system or function is
prohibited. For example: traction control, chassis control, final drive
differentials, adjustment of the shock absorbers, suspension or
ride height, four-wheel steering, anti-lock braking (ABS), etc... "

FIA GT rules for 2011 but they have allowed TCS on some years mainly becouse they had no way of monitoring manufaturer ecus.