Realism vs. Realism and Driver Aids

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Mt biggest gripe, and I appreciate it's a GT thing, is that IRL, take Top Gear as an example, They always try to turn off all the assists to get the most out of the car..

If you have the skill to do so, then apart from some very odd exceptions, the Stig always tries to disable TCS etc and turn as much off as possible, this is because any aid tends to be quite nannying and ultimately will make a really skilled driver slower using it.

In GT, the assists aren't structured in a real world way, you can go faster if you use assists in most cars (I'm sure there are exceptions), so it's rewarding their use by better laptimes.. That's my gripe..

For example, I've just done a TG Track hotlap using Suzuki Swift Sport '07, and with all assists off, I was struggling to get into the 1:31's, eventually I hit a 1:31.6xx which I think is not too shabby with no TCS or ABS. However people with a pad where instantly getting matching times, and some guy strolls in with a 1:31.3xx.. this surprised me because I was unsure how he did that with a pad, then the revelation came that he used a lot of TCS/ESR/ABS etc..

So I caved in, and used TCS/ABS and kept tweaking these and hotlapping, within 20 laps I was down to 1:30.4xx, and using more assists I think a 1:29.xxx is on the cards.

This is quite disheartening at the moment, I'm just coming to terms with it, but obviously being used to a certain other game, which only has on/off for the assists and carefully sets the intervention such that ultimately they won't let you achieve faster laptimes, no matter how skilled.. rewarding the non-use of assists seems quite an obvious thing to do..

But there you are, it is what it is, and I guess unless there is a way to prove/control the assists, I'll have to just play the game and use some of them if I want to continue doing OK in these ad-hoc events..

I guess GT's answer when leaderboards arrive will be to fix the assists used for leaderboard times? Surely they won't allow all assists to contribute to the times? or perhaps identify which assists are used and allow filtering?
 
When I posted this morning I did not imagine this would turn out to be such an interesting discussion.
A lot of valid points are beeing made by both camps, and I am sure more are still to come.
I for one will continue to try and develop my style so that one day I will be able to compete with the no-aiders.
BTW, Stotty, I beat you on one thing: I am 50
 
i drive in gt5 with only abs -1 , and i like it .
dont like people that use ps3 controler pad , because seems bad at least me.
yes im a car fan , use a alfa romeu real car seat for playing gt5 , have dfgt , dont have the g27 yet because there a baby in the way , soo cant spent more money in games , ill spent more on diapers.
And i drive like that , not because its more real , but because i could feel the car more like in real life.
 
Personally, I only use ABS on 1 (ABS off is scary :nervous:), other than that, all aids are off. I may turn traction control to 1, if I am racing in a very high powered car like the Veyron or the 787B, because its no fun watching the back of your car over take you as you are powering out of a corner! :lol: I am planning to try and only use ABS in cars that actually have ABS, which will be fun as I like to drive the classics! :Lol:

One thing I will say, is to turn the racing line off! It is of very little use, and actually makes you drive worse than you think you can. Sure it highlights the braking zones, and can give you an eye to where some of the more complicated racing lines are, but in general, I find it a hindrance than a help. I find I drive considerably better, and faster, when I am not fixated on following the blue line in the middle of the road. All you really need is the flashing gear indicator, to tell you when to brake. 👍
 
I think you should be able to play in way that makes you race faster.. if aids help you go faster then use them. If they slow you down then turn them off..

Personally I keep ABS and TCS at 1 each..
 
For one thing, having driving aids off make it completely apparent whos skills are up to par and whos skill are lacking.

it makes it more excited.

Also, remaining control of the car after a mistake is MUCH harder. These factors contribute to more exciting races, where the "mind games" of racing can be applied.
 
Personally, I only use ABS on 1 (ABS off is scary ),
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Scary? Scary?! There's nothing scary about driving in a video game! ;) That's the whole point: you've GOT TO make it a bit scarier to make it more convincing.

It's more fun to drive more slowly as if it counts IMO, rather than driving like a bat-out-of-hell & just hitting the reset button if you make a mistake. That's why terminal damage (like in F1 CE) is a great feature. Driving with the knowledge that a serious screw-up will end your race at any moment, is the least you need in a game to keep you honest. That's why damage is important - never mind what it looks like.
 
Biggles
Scary? Scary?! There's nothing scary about driving in a video game! ;) That's the whole point: you've GOT TO make it a bit scarier to make it more convincing.

It's more fun to drive more slowly as if it counts IMO, rather than driving like a bat-out-of-hell & just hitting the reset button if you make a mistake. That's why terminal damage (like in F1 CE) is a great feature. Driving with the knowledge that a serious screw-up will end your race at any moment, is the least you need in a game to keep you honest. That's why damage is important - never mind what it looks like.
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OK maybe not scary, but I remember vividly being shepherded off the track into the arnco, the last time I tried turning ABS off. I do plan to try turning ABS off, for slower cars, and eventually faster ones, but for now, I'm happy to keep ABS on 1.

I know what you are saying about terminal damage too. It should be in the game, but I know I would love to hate it if it were! For instance, I brought a 340 Scuderia recently, and on the very first run (I had only just left the pits), I span the car out and crashed. I checked GT Auto, and I had a 170k bill for a chassis refresh. Thank god damage doesn't appear to have any effect at the moment... Now that is scary! :lol: 👍
 
I preffer everything off except the ABS on cars that DO have it. Call me a purist, or obsesive cumpulsive, but I feel like I´m cheating to myself if I´m using them. Plus, it is proven that you get better times at least with all of these off: TCS, Skid Recovery(what ever that is), Active Steering and ASM. And to be honest, the only time since there were assists on GT that I´ve used them, is when ever I forget to turn them off when I get a new car(specially on GT5), or when its not possible to turn them off on a license test. About the F1 having TCS, if it did, I´ll use it.

Either way, if you feel better using them, use them and enjoy. Thats why PD put them in the game. If you hate assists, fine with you, join our no-assist club and enjoy. Everyone has their own way of playing the game. Have fun everyone:)
 
I always turn everything off because it keeps you on the edge. With everything on you can race and even win a race half drunk. Simply said, it's pretty damn boring to me!

So when I make a game I want everyone in that game to be fully there and well concentrated. You're going off track without ASM? Well... DRIVE SLOWER. You're spinning out when accelerating? STAY IN HIGHER GEAR or EASY ON THE THROTTLE.

It's not that hard, it's just that most people use it because it's easy at the beginning and when they get used to it, they don't want anything else because it's too hard to convert their playing style.
 
poker4green
Well..I got a f430 and ALWAYS turn CST off as soon as i get in the car.
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Good. i am happy for you that you are in a position to not only own a car like that but also to be, how should i say, careless with it.
is your name Micheal Schumacher by any chance?:scared:
 
I prefer driving without the aids because it makes the game what it is.

GT5 feels dead and GT4-like with Stability, TCS, and Skid recovery combined -- not much fun at all. I acknowledge the argument that many cars come with such systems in real life, but the fact is that they are generic aids that have the same effect on all cars and can be adjusted to various values. The aids system in GT is hardly a realistic representation of real-world vehicle control systems (which also vary from manufacturer to manufacturer).

That being said, There are two instances in which I do use the driving aids:

1)On high-powered race cars that actually did have some sort of TCS, I set it to 1.

2)On cars that are equipped with ABS in real life, I set ABS to 1.

Other than in those two scenarios, I don't know why you'd want the aids.
 
xchristox
I always turn everything off because it keeps you on the edge. With everything on you can race and even win a race half drunk. Simply said, it's pretty damn boring to me!

So when I make a game I want everyone in that game to be fully there and well concentrated. You're going off track without ASM? Well... DRIVE SLOWER. You're spinning out when accelerating? STAY IN HIGHER GEAR or EASY ON THE THROTTLE.

It's not that hard, it's just that most people use it because it's easy at the beginning and when they get used to it, they don't want anything else because it's too hard to convert their playing style.
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You just said it all on the last sentence!👍 People know its going to be demanding at the begining, and its going to take too much effort. And its true! But what they don´t know, is that awsome feeling of self accomplishment that you get when you manage to dominate any car with anything but your driving skills. I may not be the fastest driver there is, but faster drivers that use assists couldn´t survive a lap on any track under our driving conditions.

Just today, I decided finally to do the Nostalgia Super Car Cup. I knew it was going to be difficult, since there was one assist I had to get rid of, ABS(I use this only on cars that have it on real life). I got in my Countach, set ABS to 0, since tis car does not have it on real life, and did it. To my surprise, it was the best expirience in my life. Not only did I won, but I did´nt loose control at any time. The best thing was the feel that the car gave me. I could feel when ever that car was about to lock the tires, or snap oversteer. It was pure satisfaction. You know what I mean. Now, all my cars that didn´t or don´t have ABS in real life, are set to 0.
 
All aids off here. No braking line, no TCS, and ABS fully off. I feel the car so much more this way. You also quickly develop the proper respect that some of these cRs deserve in the game. With aids on, even if you "only" set the ABS on 1 you are diluting the cars feel.
That being said, I don't care what aids someone else uses in normal online lobbies. We're all here to enjoy ourselves. In my racing club we do series with no aids whatsoever, but normal lobbies should matter. Race what you like, just have fun.
 
The problem with TCS and such in GT4 and GT5 I think is they are way too intrusive....I can't adjust the car's attitude with gas at all with TCS on in any GT game...But I do use it if I race in a long race(GT4 at least) with a high power car because it saves rear tire wear...ABS on 1 is what I use also, mainly because for most road car you have ABS, and since we don't have force feedback pedal, the modulation is difficult IMO...
 
Abaout driving with ABS off: try to adjust both wront and rear brakes down. Atleast in Prologue you could make the brakes a bit easier to control that way(I still haven't got the actual game thanks to some postal **** up).

Would like it if they made the braking force adjustion and brake balance adjusting separate...
 
kitchenboy3
I have to admit that I am one of those drivers that still uses some of the driver aids even though they are getting dialed down more and more.
So when playing online and chatting I get a fair amount of derision and scoffing at the perceived incompetence on my part, not that it bothers me, I have big schoulders and can take a ribbing.
Anyway the message these guys are trying to convey is the following, driving the cars with driveraids is not 'real'.
Okay, fair enough, here is my question though, who in his right mind would drive their real live Ferrari or SLS or whatever with all driver aids switched off?
So, who has the more 'real' driver experience here?
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Take pity on those people. Those kind of people have small penises and have to overcompensate by mocking other players!
:sly:

I would drive my cars from time to time without driver aids. If i was racing I would use, or not use, whatever aids made my lap times come down.
:)
 
and since we don't have force feedback pedal, the modulation is difficult IMO...
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Exactly. If someone made a pedal that was firm enough to be realistic with feedback properly implemented, I'd be much more inclined to use ABS off on all cars, because I do agree it gives you a much better feel of the car coming into the corner. The brake pedal on the DFGT just doesn't cut it.
 
This thread is interesting because I've wondered what my settings are compared to others. I don't think it matters who uses whatever aids are available. Simply a matter of choice...

That said my personal preference is to keep everything turned off except for ABS & TCS.. I generally set them at 1 on lower powered cars and might set the ABS at 2 on faster cars.. On the TCS I might set it up to 4 when I have a lot of HP. I don't want to, but I am driving with a game pad and just don't have enough control of the sensitivity. Consistently braking just short of lockup with a game pad is damn tough.

think, if I were using a wheel, I'd like to have them off.

It would be interesting to know whether your using a wheel or pad for everyone that posts their standard settings.
 
Driving with no assist is MORE real than you stripping 300kg off a SLS you can't really afford in real life, put racing slicks on it and race it on a track that don't exist in real life with a controller.
 
I have nothing against people that use driving aids like traction control and stability management, but prefer to always have them off both in real life and in games. If GT5 had the option to customize the HUD, I would just shut all of it off, map and all. The damn flashing red gear suggestion is so annoying!

That said, I did have to use TCS and ASM for one thing in GT5 - the Elise Top Gear challenge. I was seriously going to throw my steering wheel into the TV on that one...
 
Pfff, really? It's just a game, drive whatever way is the most fun for you and pay no mind to haters.


I drive with TC off most of the time because I like the feel, I really don't think it's that much easier to drive with TC on, asm stays on though mostly because I forget to turn it off.
 
I don't think it's a question of "mocking" people who DO use assists. I think it's a question of driving in the most challenging & interesting way possible, because there's a lot of the RL challenge - most especially FEAR - missing from sim racing. It's just way too easy to take the car to the limit when there's nothing at stake. I'm less interested in driving as fast as possible (because, no matter how fast I go there are always many people much faster than me) & more interested in driving in the most demanding way possible, which means not using aids in most cases, even if the cars IRL do use them. I feel this compensates somewhat for the in-game driving being much less intense than RL driving.

My most exciting offline races were in F1 CE, because coming to the end of a long 30 - 45 min) race & sometimes battling for position through the last few laps, the possibility of ending my race due damage from pushing too hard added a completely new dimension to the racing.
 
My chice is to drive as the car is availabl ein real life. If it allows for ASM and TC to be turned off in real life, I turn it off in the game - same goes for ABS - and as pretty much most newer cars wont even funtion correctly with the ABS fuse pulled (they go into limp mode) running without ABS in anything other than older cars or certain race cars is less real than reality ;)
 
I dont get why people make it into such a big deal to have all aids off (besides skid recovery and active steering because those are actually the game helping you)

I mean my RL 2006 Mazda RX-8 has traction control / stability control and ABS (of course) so if people want to be realistic I should have the option of using it in the game since it exists in real life.

Even Top Gear has mentioned on some cars (such as the evo) that turning the active stability system off hurts the time the Stig can set around the track.


Now if you are in a NASCAR, a 1971 mustang etc then I would consider it cheating to use traction control etc.
 
Personally I much prefer driving with all aids off. I just find it much more challenging and fun. Unfortunately in GT5 I have to leave ABS=1 because the brakes are so difficult for me to judge. In many other racers/sims I can set ABS to off.

A lot of this is because my personal car philosophy is driver+car. No computers, nothing. The Nissan GTR is a perfect example a car I dislike: a playstation on wheels. Who is really driving? The Yellowbird is an example of a car I do like because it is so pure. So this philosophy just naturally comes through when I play racing sims.

But, I have no problem at all with people using driving aids if they wish. I have zero problem if people want to drive cars in real life with all kinds of electronic stability controls. That's not my preference but we all like different things and that's fine.
 
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I think it is a matter of preference. Those that aschew use of TC or ABS do so in hopes of simulating a more "pure" experience. The fact of the matter however is that more and more technologies are working their way into the real race cars . . . including automated clutches, TC, ABS etc. Even at the highest levels like F1, drivers WELCOME technologies which will give them an advantage (and not just aero developments.) I've got news for the "purists," the manual gearboxes days are numbered. In GT5 I have had to run TC-1 ABS-1 on several select cars (incl. F40.) With time I hope to tune out some of the devils, but until then, those "aids" keep me competitive. Most other cars I turn TC and ABS off without issue. For others, run what makes you fast and competitive, and chalk all the "purist" no-aids talk up as loser whining. The fact of the matter is, the true purist researches the actual car and mimicks it's technology as close as possible in GT5 . . . without shaming those who don't take the time.
 

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