Rewind feature in PCARS

Discussion in 'Project CARS 1' started by martinezlj, May 11, 2015.

  1. Cholton82

    Cholton82

    Messages:
    380
    No No No , learn from your mistakes and accept that you can't win everything and the ones you do win will feel like gold !
     
    mister dog likes this.
  2. Imari

    Imari

    Messages:
    11,574
    Location:
    Australia
    We all sucked to start with. ;)

    But even the most authentic sim is easy if you drive within your limits. I couldn't drive a V8 supercar at race speeds in real life, but I bet I could trundle around the track not pushing it too hard just fine. I couldn't race a Zonda around the Nurburgring, but I could drive it to the shops.

    Drive slower and keep the car on the track. Turn the AI down to whatever level you need to in order to make it so that you win if you stay on the track at a safe pace, but lose if you stuff it into a wall. You'll feel like a bit of a berk playing the game so easy, but stick with it. Once you're keeping it on the track you will develop rhythm very, very quickly. Give it a couple weeks, and if you feel that you're struggling now you'll likely be slashing seconds off your laptimes.

    The thing I don't like about rewind is that as an assist it doesn't encourage the player to learn to drive properly. ABS and TCS (mostly) just slow you down, so there's incentive to do without. The driving line is far from optimal in most situations, so you're better off using your own judgement. But rewind encourages going at 110% knowing that if/when you stuff it, you can just try again.

    Crashing being a big punishment should be incentive for people to drive in a manner in which they do everything they can to avoid putting themselves in a situation where they might crash. Unfortunately, most people don't seem to think about it this way.

    Contrary to what we see in movies, driving fast is mostly about driving at 90% with great precision. Most people can get around a track at 90% quite safely, but because they're not very good drivers their 90% is relatively slow. What they don't realise is that by doing that repeatedly, they develop a feel for the car that is making them able to go faster and faster.

    Instead, by driving at 110% they get no rhythm and very little feel for the car, because they're always beyond the limit instead of learning how to lean up against it. Being able to save a car is a useful skill as well, but if you can be consistent and not put yourself in situations where you need to save the car, you'll be better off over a long race.

    I'm quick enough by most people's standards, but not alien quick. I tend to be 2-3 seconds behind the real aliens, or about top ten percent of most leaderboards. But I used to be a lot slower, and I got better by learning not to try so hard and taking my time to develop a feel for the car. And I did that by driving slow and safe and steady, which let me practise and reinforce the good parts of my driving.

    It may not work for you, but it worked for me and I've seen it work for others. You have to slow down if you want to speed up. :)



    P.S. This applies to anyone with a wheel or a pad. A pad is a perfectly capable driving device, but again you've got to take the time to develop your skills. Slow down, and focus on being smooth and clean. It's harder than with a wheel, I'll grant you, but it absolutely can be done and it's not really that difficult. Practise driving safe, and before you know it you'll be driving just as fast as you were before, but without twitching and crashing all over the place.

    Don't neglect adjusting your equipment though. Pad and wheel input settings are a big deal (and it appears that the defaults on console aren't that great), so if you haven't done so already, do take the time to learn how they work and adjust for your own benefit. It'll make things a lot easier.
     
    Wolfe, LogiForce, Classic and 2 others like this.
  3. Biggles

    Biggles

    Messages:
    5,227
    Having a rewind function destroys the feeling of real immersion in the game. IRL racing there is a balance between the desire to go fast & the risks involved in pushing the too far. Simulation already takes away any actual RL consequences, but at least there are in-game consequences.

    My favourite game in this respect was F1CE, which had a simple but effective damage system which punished you if you made a serious mistake. The element of tension this introduced into races was a large part of why F1CE was such an immersive game - towards the end of a long race, the need to go fast but not crash or damage the car made the race genuinely exciting. Having rewind ... even the option of rewind ... effectively destroys that sense of excitement.
     
    mister dog and Fezz_ST like this.
  4. Wolfe

    Wolfe Premium

    Messages:
    13,002
    Location:
    United States
    IMO, the purpose of rewind for more skilled players is to undo bull:censored: that is beyond your control and save time compared to a race restart. Like the potentially race-ruining glitchy collisions in this game, for example. Those may be fixed, but that's a great opportunity for rewind. I was never ashamed to do that with some of the glitches in Forza Horizon.

    It's not as important in this game because, well, winning doesn't exactly earn you anything. So if you get punted off the track by an erratic AI making a stupid swerve, you could accept it as an incident to overcome through the remainder of the race...which is also made possible because this game actually offers lengthy races instead of forcing you through 3-lap sprints.

    I see the sense on both sides of it (including @Imari's point of view :tup: ), although saying things like "it's a simulator" or "this isn't Forza" is irrelevant.
     
  5. niceness-dk

    niceness-dk

    Messages:
    250
    Location:
    Denmark
    On the XBONE the controller sometimes disconnects. It's still an issue for me even after the controller update in february. When that happens and I end up crashing, I really REEEEAALLY miss the rewind feature. But only in that situation. Unless of course if the disconnections are part of simulating narcolepsy. But it probably isn't...
     
  6. WarriusZero

    WarriusZero

    Messages:
    1,833
    Bugs apart, I agree with the 'no rewind' team. Knowing that a bad move can cost you everything gives you that extra drop of sweat on the forehead.

    Also, let's be pragmatic. Any feature costs time and money, and the game needs other features and fixes way more important than an option most won't use.

    Edit: by the way, a workaround for a bug is called a hack. Devs and users don't (and shouldn't) like hacks, it's better to fix the bugs.
     
    mister dog likes this.
  7. Krizzay

    Krizzay

    Messages:
    378
    Location:
    Belgium
    I'm guessing you've never seen Freejack ;)
     
    HAL20XX likes this.
  8. ukfan758

    ukfan758

    Messages:
    4,221
    Location:
    United States
    I'm against having a rewind feature but I do wonder if there is an instant replay feature like Shift 2, where you can see what you did wrong after an accident.
     
  9. aCuddlyteddy

    aCuddlyteddy

    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    If I race and I fail, whether I spin going into a corner to quick or cause an sccident by colliding with another car, 9 times out of 10 its my fault.

    This is why we have practice sessions.

    I am against the idea of having a rewind. Makes it too easy to correct a mistake rather than learning the hard way and having to do another Lap to get it right.

    No rewind makes you a better driver in the long run.
     
  10. Harley45

    Harley45 Premium

    Messages:
    1,312
    The only rewind feature I like in PCARS is in the video's so I can watch myself crash again :dunce:
     
    ukfan758 and aCuddlyteddy like this.
  11. HAL20XX

    HAL20XX

    Messages:
    1,789
    Location:
    United States
    The rewind function in Forza 3 was the sole reason I finally took them time to disable all driving aids. Prior to that, I had played every entry in the Forza/GT series with assists on. Despite being madly into cars, I wasn't madly into sims, so I only had mild patience to get better. I owe that feature a huge amount of credit for the passion I now have for sim racing (and the hole it's burned in my pocket buying sim rig gear).

    But apparently my using it in Forza 3 negatively affected the experience of everyone else that played the game...
     
    bremics likes this.
  12. HBR-Roadhog

    HBR-Roadhog

    Messages:
    6,318
    Location:
    United States
    I would say that them taking the time and resources to add it to the game negatively affected the experience for everyone else.

    FM3 is released and it is like sorry but you can no longer create a public lobby for online racing, sorry also that you can no longer tune your car while in a lobby private or public but hey we got this feature that lets you rewind your race in our new boring career mode. Of course we can't let you use it on the test track where it might actually be some use ;)
     
  13. glassjaw

    glassjaw Premium

    Messages:
    1,464
    Location:
    United States
    Kinda shocked at the excessive hate for rewind. It's kind of hypocritical when you consider that so much of Project Cars' MO is accessibility and customization and playing the game your way, in addition to realism...and everyone seems 100% behind all of that. But just because this is a simulator, any feature that is unrealistic that could aid in newcomers learning the game should be immediately dismissed? I wouldn't use it either, but let's not forget driving lines, and aids that aren't on real cars, and the eight million other ways that playing a video game isn't as punishing as real life. Think we're all taking ourselves just a bit too seriously here.
     
  14. bremics

    bremics

    Messages:
    1,944
    I like it because artificial intelligence is never intelligent.

    Also, it's great for online against rammers in GRID Autosport.

    SMS better patch out that unrealistic racing line as well.
     
    Gerarghini likes this.
  15. LogiForce

    LogiForce Premium

    Messages:
    4,078
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Nothing is immediately dismissed. We had lengthy discussions and heated debates on this internally at WMD already. In the end most of us agreed that adding the feature would just remove the incentive to improve your own skill.
    Yes, of course the game is accessible but only to the degree of making it drivable for anyone. Cause once you are able to control your car well enough you can start to learn how to drive it... slowing building up speed until you can drive it fast.

    Adding rewind is simply removing consequence of your actions. While the simulation fans might switch it off we also wanted to give the other gamers a push in the back by opposing Rewind by basically saying "Common lad, we know you can do it since we started slow to. We believe you can do it, so keep trying".
    So please, take Imari's advice and show us you can become fast too, cause we believe that every person through either tallent or hard work has the ability to do so. And by lowering AI difficulty it can be a fun road still.


    To quote a famous Scotsman...

    "To finish first, first you must finish" - Jackie Stewart

     
  16. bremics

    bremics

    Messages:
    1,944
    So if I increase my driving skills the AI will stop randomly take me out?

    **** happens in racing I know, but with how often the AI likes ram itself up your ass or bodycheck you, and running with full damage, it's either rewind function or no damage.
     
  17. IceMan PJN

    IceMan PJN

    Messages:
    1,955
    Location:
    United States
    I don't recommend using assists, but assists make games more accessible to more players. Without optional assists, a game limits itself to an exclusive club. That's bad because it alienates less skilled players that might otherwise have been willing to start with assists and then gradually turn them off as they get better. That's how I started with Forza, first using assists but gradually toggling them off as I improved.

    The only benefit to not having assists even as options is for players to be elitist snobs like we've seen here. The funny thing about this is rewind was used as an excuse to scoff at Forza, which is to be expected of what is by intention a Gran Turismo community, but I remember in GT5 days noticing the majority of community members confessing to using ABS 1 rather than truly turning it off via ABS 0. I played GT5 with ABS 0, not 1 but then strutting around boasting about how hardcore I was for not using assists.

    I've noticed lots of players using the racing line aid, in both franchises. You can't really look down your nose at rewind for simplifying games and removing the demand for skill and then hop into a game with God painting a magic line showing you where to go and where to brake.

    Forza is actually an example of how to do it right, not of wrong. Forza makes it accessible to newbies by offering optional assists, rather than turning rookies away with a vertical learning cliff, but rewards players for playing without assists. This is different from GT which had optional assists but offered no incentive for turning them off aside from bragging rights so you can post about how bloody wonderful you are while sniffing your own farts.
     
    Gerarghini likes this.
  18. Tak[TEC]

    Tak[TEC]

    Messages:
    406
    Location:
    Australia
    If it was avaliable I would probably use it purely to rewind being rammed by AI not recognizing my car's location or a random bug happening (in the game's current state it wouldn't be a bad idea considering the amount of random **** that happens (at least once every 2-3 races in my experience). But once the bugs are ironed out it would probably go unused, I like the idea of living with your mistakes for pushing the car a bit too hard or taking the wrong line through a corner. It's just the things we can't control at the moment, the AI and random bugs that the rewind feature would be justified for
     
    Gerarghini likes this.
  19. Imari

    Imari

    Messages:
    11,574
    Location:
    Australia
    You're right, that's not a valid argument against it and that should stop.

    The argument against it is a design one. The designers want to game to encourage certain types of driving behaviour and attitudes towards how the player drives and discourage others. They believe that rewind promotes behaviours and attitudes that do not fit in their game, even for how they want learners to approach it.

    Some people might not like that, but that's just sort of the way it is. It's a valid design choice. Some people might enjoy flinging cars around corners sideways, but simulators are designed not to promote that behaviour. Likewise, a game without rewind is designed not to reward driving near or beyond one's skill level.

    Unlike other racing games, it's not about letting you pretend that you are a driving god even though you're not. It's about giving you the chance to actually develop some real skills and apply them, in the same way that real drivers do.
     
    HAL20XX likes this.
  20. Walkinshaw

    Walkinshaw

    Messages:
    540
    No rewind function.

    I love the fact that I could easily stuff it all up on the last corner or blow my engine or get whacked from behind and spin off. Good for adrenaline.

    On a side note : So far the online experience has been better than I thought, most drivers are aggressive but fair and respectful.
     
  21. Biggles

    Biggles

    Messages:
    5,227
    In all honesty I have never used the driving line in any game either ... & for similar reasons: it destroys the sense of immersion. The time spent learning the driving line, learning the braking points, mastering the driving without assists ... that's what makes a racing sim interesting. I can see all these things being used in arcade racing where the emphasis is on accessible "gaming fun", but there are already lots of arcade oriented racing games for those who prefer a less demanding driving experience.

    Racing sims are more oriented towards as authentic a driving experience as possible. Of course, I understand the need for a game developer to reach as wide an audience & sell as many units as possible, which is presumably why Forza included the rewind feature.
     
    FLX1981 likes this.
  22. NLxAROSA

    NLxAROSA Premium

    Messages:
    7,854
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Those are valid issues, but they don't justify a rewind feature. They justify the AI being tweaked and the bugs fixed. :tup: I'm really not in favor of fixing symptoms instead of causes, it creates a mess.

    I'm all in favor of assists (basically lowering difficulty), but the rewind feature goes beyond simply lowering difficulty (as already explained quite eloquently by others). Or as my 8-year put it when I showed her the rewind feature in GRID2: "Oh, but that's cheating, right?". :lol:

    Also note that I am certainly not playing the 'simulation' card here, I believe rewind shouldn't be in any racing game, including arcade racers. :tup:
     
    Imari and ukfan758 like this.
  23. Gejabo

    Gejabo Premium

    Messages:
    2,561
    Location:
    Netherlands
    I'm also against it.
    If the races are to hard just slide down the AI level.

    And practice, practice, practice.
    Over time you'll get the hang of it it and you can slide it back up.

    For the record I can nit win a race with AI above 60% ;)
     
    ukfan758 and FLX1981 like this.
  24. 2clicks

    2clicks

    Messages:
    1,281
    Location:
    South Africa
    No. It is a ridiculous crutch that stifles driving skill and never encourages improvement. Oh, and Driveclub doesn't have a rewind feature, I don't see people complaining about that.
     
    ukfan758, bleeder and FLX1981 like this.
  25. gtracedriver1

    gtracedriver1

    Messages:
    1,067

    I am sure majority if not 99% use abs1 or more. Also racing line is important feature though it is not fastest option. Auto gears and other aids too can help the player to like the game more. There is nothing wrong in it. But rewind is basically cheating and should not be allowed.

    In F1 games I have 2012 and 2013 I just used it once by mistake due to AI collision but eventually restarted the race as I realized it was cheating. In other games like Prince of Persia, the magic dagger adds to the game a lot. But in racing games there is no place for it
     
  26. NLxAROSA

    NLxAROSA Premium

    Messages:
    7,854
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Also firmly in the middle here. Though I'm improving as I play more, so I can increase the level further. :tup:
     
    Gejabo likes this.
  27. HBR-Roadhog

    HBR-Roadhog

    Messages:
    6,318
    Location:
    United States
    I see one guy mentioned using rewind online. I can't even begin to imagine how badly that would go over.

    At any rate there are 1000s of things they could do to make the game better and more interesting that would be a better choice than some silly rewind. To date I have only had 3 games with a rewind in them and two of those were Forza. The other I forget what it was, an older game. I could not believe that was there when I saw it. It's like whats the point of racing if the game is just going to let you undo every mistake you make along the way.

    I really don't care for the assisted steering and braking but I do understand how those could help get beginners more interested in the game. Rewind on the other hand would be a waste of development resources.
     
  28. PzR Slim

    PzR Slim Premium

    Messages:
    6,725
    Location:
    England
    I'm glad rewind is not there. It's the easy way out. I see a lot of people saying it helps you learn how to drive correctly because it lets you redo corners. There is another way to redo a corner.....do another lap ;)

    Seriously, best way to learn is do to lots and lots of laps. Free practice, no damage and just lap. If you crash it doesn't matter. Rewind completely breaks your rhythm, which is a vitally important ability when racing.
     
  29. LogiForce

    LogiForce Premium

    Messages:
    4,078
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Instead of putting time in developing a game changing feature, let's just resolve the issues shall we. It's much more productive and possibly faster as well.

    Creating something that would be a permanent workaround (since once its in a lot of people will scream like little children if you take it out) is simply just taking time away from simply fixing the issue. In any work environment a workaround should only be used temporarily until a permanent fix is implemented, and that workaround should only be implemented if it takes a shorter implementation time as the actual fix. Which I am about 80% sure it won't be in this caze

    So using a new feature to work around issues is a no-go in my opinion. Sorry.
     
    HBR-Roadhog and NLxAROSA like this.
  30. Gejabo

    Gejabo Premium

    Messages:
    2,561
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Depends highly on the car in me case, for my GT3 is easier than the superkarts :odd:
     
    NLxAROSA likes this.