Ridiculous power figures on some cars

[amp88]

Truth but not all the truth.

To be specific, they used pre-owned (that means used) production engine blocks from what I suppose were 3 series cars. They found that the repeated heat cycles experienced by blocks that had covered over 20000 miles or more (can't remember if they wanted any specific mileage, just lots of miles) had a stress relieving effect on the block, removing any weak points in the metal matrix that would have made the block unreliable under racing conditions if raced from zero mileage.

Another interesting point: These were 1.5L 4 cylinder in-line engines, and the turbo was probably almost as big as the block

Yeah, the piece I read on it (evo, Feb 2003) said the engines had covered 100,000 miles before they were used in F1.

yes, the ultima is a streetcar... but those engines are prepared for racing.
hence the reason they come with a road race oil pump and you can add-on holley race carbs.

that car isn't even really designed to be a street car, its more of a race-car you can drive to the track.

Any street legal engine/car is compromised for road, so the engines are designed to be road legal, but of a high level of performance. They're not really race engines, are they?

 

[Fade to Black]

A couple of points to address here...

God, I love it, some dolt up there is complaining that his escudo can't do 300 anymore! How exactly is that realistic? PD tried to fix unrealistic things from gt3. That was one of them.

Firstly, insulting someone doesn't make your point more relevant, so if you have to reduce the conversation to that level, don't post at all.

As for realistic. Let me see... I asked precisely why had the Escudo been reduced in power some 700 BHP... if GT3 was ALSO "the real driving simulator" and it ran an 1881HP unit, why not GT4? For that matter, why is that self-same stage 4 turbo somehow less powerful? A stage 4 turbo, is a stage 4 turbo, surely..?

If it's trying to be realistic now, why didn't it do that in the first place? Doesn't that mean that, effectively they're making up the turbo upgrade power outputs as they're going along..?

btw, when was the last time any of you said anything about what PD DID get right? Or how no other racing game comes anywhere near as close to GT4 in visuals?

Actually, if you check elsewhere on these boards, I posted some serious praise about GT4's music... not sure what relevance visuals have with engineering however...

Oh and one other thing... I've had any number of cars in GT4 over 300mph... including road cars. So you were saying about tuning realism..?

 

[niky]

I can't believe I am stepping into this conversation.

Does it really matter if the engine upgrades are over priced as long as they are practically dropping cash in our laps?

party pooper
Guess it matters if you're starting over again.

 

[Korndawg]

In real life you can turbocharge anything you want, some will just be more expensive than others. And 1000hp out of an 8.3L NA engine isn't impossible, it's just a lot harder to do than with turbos.

definately alot harder considering with turbos you can realisticaly get 1000hp from a 2.6L 6-cylinder (Skyline RB26DETT)

 

[Cobra_UK]

Why would fancy bonnets and roof scoops improve a driving simulator game? There are plenty of different games that cater for that kind of thing, GT5 should NOT be one of them.

First stop sending people away from GT games if they hope to see things in GT5 you don't agree with. Second learn a bit more about tuning in real life. You see bodykits were actually first designed to help a car's characteristics by providing more downforce and reducing wind resistance, plus a number of other things. Bonnet scoops were not invented for looks but to cool down the engine bay or provide the coolest air possible for carburettors. Also your a lot of your weight reduction in GT4 consists of replacing many body parts with carbon fibre copy. As such I'd like that noticeable visibly as well as numbers. Lastly when making an airflow upgrade (induction kit, exhaust and intake manifolds, exhaust, decat) is only represented numerically and not visually so I'd like that implemented.

Thanks Benji for understanding properly what I meant.

 

[bmwmpower]

GT4 its just a game,
and that volvo is old, and old engine s re not efective as new,
so we re talking only about tuning engine, not replace 99 % of it

 

[soptom]

First stop sending people away from GT games if they hope to see things in GT5 you don't agree with. Second learn a bit more about tuning in real life. You see bodykits were actually first designed to help a car's characteristics by providing more downforce and reducing wind resistance, plus a number of other things. Bonnet scoops were not invented for looks but to cool down the engine bay or provide the coolest air possible for carburettors. Also your a lot of your weight reduction in GT4 consists of replacing many body parts with carbon fibre copy. As such I'd like that noticeable visibly as well as numbers. Lastly when making an airflow upgrade (induction kit, exhaust and intake manifolds, exhaust, decat) is only represented numerically and not visually so I'd like that implemented.

Thanks Benji for understanding properly what I meant.

Firstly, where did I send anyone away from the game?
Secondly, I know how cars are tuned, roof scoops play no part except for a few mid-engined cars, differing wheel sizes would have little effect given that the gearboxes are tuneable removing the difference in gearing an increase in wheel size would produce, why do you want a greater variety of spoilers given that they all give the same amount of downforce in the game? Not all cars can have a unique spoiler. Granted, a different exhaust might be useful to enable at a glance if it has been tuned but different bonnets?
A custom numberplate is entirely irrelevant in my opinion, but don't think I was having a go, you voiced what you wanted, I replied what I thought, thats how forums work.

 

[Famine]

Doesn't that mean that, effectively they're making up the turbo upgrade power outputs as they're going along..?

Surely not?


Additionally, if you can buy a bolt-on intercooler in GT, and you can, would it not be reasonable to assume that not all cars with a bolt-on intercooler would have it front mounted? Would it not be further reasonable to assume that, if you have an aftermarket TMIC, you'd actually want a bonnet scoop for rational, practical purposes?

Granted, GT is not NFSU, but I don't think anyone's suggesting neon washer jets and tyreflies. Yet. It does remain apparent though that in GT you can add an intercooler, racing exhaust and full rollcage, but never see any evidence of them.


Custom numberplates are a nicety - though GT has always been built upon niceties. It's a bit tiresome to turn up at a track and find that some muppet of an AI driver has not only turned up in the same car as you, but it has the same paint, the same car number AND the same registration plate. Personally, I'd like to see changeable car numbers, along with live-update race ranking displays - such as already exist at Laguna Seca and La Sarthe (only without any numbers on them). But, as I said, that's a nicety and not even vaguely related to car-tuning or a 600hp Volvo 240.

 

[Cobra_UK]

Why would fancy bonnets and roof scoops improve a driving simulator game? There are plenty of different games that cater for that kind of thing, GT5 should NOT be one of them.

Oh I'm sorry, I expected you to say go play NFS:U2 if you want bonnet scoops. Or some lame remark like that.

The size of the wheels can make a big difference, in power and in surface grip. It affects those 2 factors a lot more than gearing.

Roof scoops play a part for mid-engine cars so yes they are useful, so why didn't you want them in the game? Did I say I wanted roof scoops on front engined cars? No.

Different bonnets as in different types of scoops/vents. For variety and depending on their size, location and shape, could affect how well they cool the engine while ruining/enhancing the stock bonnet apearance. Also an unpainted carbon fibre bonnet will have a different texture, that would make it different right?

Different spoilers do give the same ammount of downforce in GT4 and also give a front downforce without displaying any kind of front wind splitter or adjustable lip. But I was talking about GT5 right? 💡 Maybe in GT5 there will also be a front lip/spoiler displayed in-game and maybe different spoilers will have different downforce limits in terms of minimum and maximum. The player could then choose a less obtrusive spoiler and less downforce as opposed to a big racing type spoiler monstruosity.

A custom numberplate could make it a bit more fun in online races allowing everyone their individuality, funny thing individuality, everyone's into it. Same goes for paint color, decals and vinyls. Just because someone likes to add such things to their car it does not make them "ricer" (which by the way is a very racist term). They just want to be seen as an individual and their car to reflect that. Some are beautiful, some are ugly but so are clothes and people still have the choice to wear what they like. It's called freedom and the more options players will have in GT5 the more it will feel like freedom.

This should answer your questions as to why I'd like such features in GT5 in game. I hope this has answered your question and it won't turn into some kind of silly flaming. Also apologies for going off-topic.

 

[Cobra_UK]

Back on topic, I was thinking that maybe another setting in the tuning side of things should be to bring the boost level setting back. Then we'll see Volvo cars with 600Hp but with a big turbo lag, perhaps?

 

[soptom]

Oh I'm sorry, I expected you to say go play NFS:U2 if you want bonnet scoops. Or some lame remark like that.

The size of the wheels can make a big difference, in power and in surface grip. It affects those 2 factors a lot more than gearing.

Roof scoops play a part for mid-engine cars so yes they are useful, so why didn't you want them in the game? Did I say I wanted roof scoops on front engined cars? No.

Different bonnets as in different types of scoops/vents. For variety and depending on their size, location and shape, could affect how well they cool the engine while ruining/enhancing the stock bonnet apearance. Also an unpainted carbon fibre bonnet will have a different texture, that would make it different right?

Different spoilers do give the same ammount of downforce in GT4 and also give a front downforce without displaying any kind of front wind splitter or adjustable lip. But I was talking about GT5 right? 💡 Maybe in GT5 there will also be a front lip/spoiler displayed in-game and maybe different spoilers will have different downforce limits in terms of minimum and maximum. The player could then choose a less obtrusive spoiler and less downforce as opposed to a big racing type spoiler monstruosity.

A custom numberplate could make it a bit more fun in online races allowing everyone their individuality, funny thing individuality, everyone's into it. Same goes for paint color, decals and vinyls. Just because someone likes to add such things to their car it does not make them "ricer" (which by the way is a very racist term). They just want to be seen as an individual and their car to reflect that. Some are beautiful, some are ugly but so are clothes and people still have the choice to wear what they like. It's called freedom and the more options players will have in GT5 the more it will feel like freedom.

This should answer your questions as to why I'd like such features in GT5 in game. I hope this has answered your question and it won't turn into some kind of silly flaming. Also apologies for going off-topic.

Fair enough, but my point was that all the things you want apart from the spoilers are cosmetic, roof scoops and bonnet scoops effect cooling mostly and having an effect on power in a game would create nothing but arguments about realistic gains. I also suspect that given the number of topics about whether sport or N1,2,or 3 tyres should be used for realism, having different tyre widths effecting grip is something that PD would do well to avoid. It would lead to people saying the real life time should be set on 16" wheels but the 18"s are closer in lap times.
Again, numberplates are personal preference, I'm not bothered what they say but can see where their appeal to some would lie.
Incidentaly, I did not use the so-called racist term you mentioned and don't go for sweeping generalisations like that.
Again, I'm not against your wishes for the game, I'd just rather have better physics rather than graphic enhancements, who-knows, perhaps we'll get both to the extent that everyone's happy, but I doubt it. 👍

 

[nismo4life]

Lavcer Evolution 8 MR-551 hp
(Real Life) Pruven Performance Lancer Evolution 8-669AWHP@40psi

I think there should be a boost control in the game...the lower the boost the quicker the spool/less power, the higher the boost, longer spool time, more power...just like real life..

 

[Greycap]

I have been away for a few days and I see my question has grown into much more than I expected. If it's OK, it might be wise to change the name of this thread to something that tells more of it. Moderators, feel free.

 

[SavageEvil]

I guess my post went unnoticed. Why is everyone going nuts over the figures for HP in GT4, I'm willing to bet that those are thee numbers given to PD by the car manufacturer. There is something to be said about why this game doesn't have aftermarket parts, because none of them are endorsed by the car manufacturers. Find a car manufacturer who endorses outfitting your everyday road car to make it essentially a street/race car? You'd be hard pressed to find that, just because in real life you can throw this and that in your engine and slap this and that on the body doesn't automatically mean it will be in the game, car manufacturers don't like bad PR and that would be bad PR(endorsing the building of race modded cars, even in a game). All the tuners in GT4 are well known and are subsidiaries of the manufacturers that spawned them, only a few are actually not linked in anyway to a car manufacturer. Car manufacturers will however endorse purpose built race cars, but you won't see them doing that for those passenger vehicles they sell out of their showrooms. Like i said before, once you beging to modify the car beyond manufacturers specs you are on your own, they have zero accountability. In the game since they don't advise it in real life, I'm not too sure PD is going to allow you to use aftermarket engine enhancements.

(side note-not even Forza lets you add after market engine enhancements, it's all manufacturer advised parts and engine enhancements) One day i guess they might be able to do that, but don't know when...and that will require loads of testing unless they just use a rough estimate from the parts manufac.

that's my take on this whole hp not matching real world numbers, since this game you can't throw your favorite tuner parts in the car. Oh just because there is a twin turbo Viper in real life, you won't get that in the game as long as manufacturers have the final say. Heck i don't think daimler-chrysler/dodge sanctions that kind of mod on their Viper.

 

[S31Ender]

ummm, Roof scoops aren't just for mid engined cars. Anyone ever driven a 91 Toyota Celica GT-Four rally car? No? I have. Has anyone seen a few select late ninties 555 impreza rally car? Guess what you see on them....that's right, roof scoops. Now, in most racing, roof scoops aren't used at all, but in rally they are. They're not just for MR2s and NSXs.

 

[un_peacekeeper]

Volvo

2 Tonnes of Swedish Junk

for that, you shall be shot.

 

[Ezz777]

Roof scoops aren't just for mid engined cars.

Fine put them in, and whatever other niceties, but model them in the physics.

I just wish that adding flashy bits made the corresponding changes to your cars characteristics.

Why don't roll cages change a cars weight? model a bonnet/roof scoops in terms of its drag. surely installing a carbon driveshaft/race fly wheel etc. would lighten your car considerably. Surely a stg4 turbo would add a few kegs as well as changeing your weight balance/CoG. I guess we are dealing with a fairly simple albeit excellent physics model, but what sort of effect would adding all this do to the performance of the game on a PS2. I am guessing that GT4 is getting pretty close to the limits of a PS2's gruntability. Maybe with the PS3 we will see a more complete physics model. Plus with multiple threads (last i heard the ps3 runs a dual core cpu) maybe we'll finally see a decent AI that isn't compromised by having to share cpu time with other 'pretty' things...

enough rant. i better put in something mildly related to topic... ummm.... turbos are fully sik. i want stage 7 turbos in the next game. why limit it to just 5 stages?!?

 

[JTSnooks]

I guess my post went unnoticed. Why is everyone going nuts over the figures for HP in GT4, I'm willing to bet that those are thee numbers given to PD by the car manufacturer. There is something to be said about why this game doesn't have aftermarket parts, because none of them are endorsed by the car manufacturers. Find a car manufacturer who endorses outfitting your everyday road car to make it essentially a street/race car? You'd be hard pressed to find that, just because in real life you can throw this and that in your engine and slap this and that on the body doesn't automatically mean it will be in the game, car manufacturers don't like bad PR and that would be bad PR(endorsing the building of race modded cars, even in a game). All the tuners in GT4 are well known and are subsidiaries of the manufacturers that spawned them, only a few are actually not linked in anyway to a car manufacturer. Car manufacturers will however endorse purpose built race cars, but you won't see them doing that for those passenger vehicles they sell out of their showrooms. Like i said before, once you beging to modify the car beyond manufacturers specs you are on your own, they have zero accountability. In the game since they don't advise it in real life, I'm not too sure PD is going to allow you to use aftermarket engine enhancements.

(side note-not even Forza lets you add after market engine enhancements, it's all manufacturer advised parts and engine enhancements) One day i guess they might be able to do that, but don't know when...and that will require loads of testing unless they just use a rough estimate from the parts manufac.

that's my take on this whole hp not matching real world numbers, since this game you can't throw your favorite tuner parts in the car. Oh just because there is a twin turbo Viper in real life, you won't get that in the game as long as manufacturers have the final say. Heck i don't think daimler-chrysler/dodge sanctions that kind of mod on their Viper.

I guarantee you that none of the manufacturers in GT4 said "oh yeah, and when our car is 'fully upgraded' it should make around this much horsepower". Also, GT4 is a purely track-racing game, so there are no liability issues involved. And considering the history of most American car manufacturers, they most of all should be willing to include aftermarket tuners. Without companies like Edelbrock and Holley, Chevrolet wouldn't be half the size it is today. Also, considering the ad campaigns in the 60s and 70s pretty much came right out and said "we build these cars so you can win street races", they'd be awfully hypocritical if they said "you can't modify our cars in the game".

Apparently, the manufacturers in GT4 already support modding cars for racing in the game, because....you can mod cars for racing in the game. Simply adding tuner and parts company names and getting more realistic about the engine mods isn't going to change the fact that you can modify your car for racing. Also, car manufacturers try to keep the racing versions of their cars looking as close to the production versions as possible, as people say "wow, that car just won on the track...and it looks exactly like the Corvette I just test drove. It must be a pretty performance-oriented car".

Want an example of a manufacturer who endorses outfitting your car to be a street/race car? How about Chrysler (Dodge). Ever heard of Mopar? You can buy upgraded turbo kits over the counter to bolt on and run over 300hp in an SRT-4. I believe they have some that approach 400. Let's see...factory bodykit, useless hoodscoop, giant wing, 6-speed transmission, and 300+hp in a very small, light car. Sounds like they built the car for a purpose, and I guarantee you they're not so naive that they think people are buying them just for the drag strip.

As for the twin-turbo Viper, Chrysler couldn't care less, because all the modifications void the warranty, so it's not their business. Hennessey actually offers his own warranty on modifications though because of this. Also, why would they be upset that their cars are being modified to be dominating? Isn't that a good thing? Sure you're going to get a few treehuggers and safety nazis who say they're going to kill someone or the environment, but how many of them really had a Viper on their buy list? Manufacturers sponsor racing because it HELPS car sales, and MOST of them support the huge aftermarket because if your car gets popular with the aftermarket crowd, you're going to sell a lot of them. They don't care who their cars are popular with as long as they're popular. And if you get pulled over for speeding in one, that's not their problem, so why should they care if you modify your car? As of yet I haven't heard of a manufacturer being sued for forcing someone to street race, as that would be awfully difficult to prove in court and would cost a LOT of money. Besides, there are already plenty of games out there that DO have licensed cars being modified and street raced, and nobody's sued anyone over those yet (although I'm sure someone will think of some way to get money out of them ).

 

[sgtstix]

i dont know if you guys realize that the engine mods are what you can get from the company of the veicle not after market parts from other companys. so if you have an old 240 volvo the mods you can get from VOLVO will allow the car to have 285 hp same with any other car company when you buy a certain car regardless of the fact the same engine is in a diffrent car the car company says that this is what we can do for you in real life so u can modyfy your veicle what you do with it after wards is your discretion.

 

[Ezz777]

i dont know if you guys realize that the engine mods are what you can get from the company of the veicle not after market parts from other companys. so if you have an old 240 volvo the mods you can get from VOLVO will allow the car to have 285 hp same with any other car company when you buy a certain car regardless of the fact the same engine is in a diffrent car the car company says that this is what we can do for you in real life so u can modyfy your veicle what you do with it after wards is your discretion.

long unpunctuated sentences do not good sense make...

if what i believe to be your point, is actually what your point is, i am thinking you should read a little more of this thread.

 

[Cobra_UK]

Incidentally, I did not use the so-called racist term you mentioned and don't go for sweeping generalisations like that.

Mate read my post again, I never said "you" said the term "ricer". There's no generalisation. I just wrote that long post as polite as possible and even said I didn’t want this to go into a flaming war. Peace.

 

[Cobra_UK]

Maybe with the PS3 we will see a more complete physics model. Plus with multiple threads (last i heard the ps3 runs a dual core cpu) maybe we'll finally see a decent AI that isn't compromised by

Enter the CELL processors, able to calculate super complex physics, in fact the processors were integrated for that exact purpose.

If GT5 could calculate fuel, tyres, drag, downforce, temperature, and attach weight to every tuner part, plus re-introduce turbo boost setting. I would be over the moon. For example a scoop cools the engine making it more efficient or brings more cold air into the fuel mixture thus allowing for a higher RPM engine and more power with advanced timing. A front wind splitter/lip could provide more downforce and grip while encouraging a bit of oversteer to get into tight corners easier but will provide more drag along with a bonnet scoop thus hitting the top speed performance. A turbo may provide more power compared to NA but it will also add weight to the car, so will an intercooler, but a carbon fibre shaft will lessen gross weight. Putting less fuel in will also lower the car's total weight but a roll cage will increase it. Bigger wheels will hit the car's Whp but they may provide more grip and be more beneficial overall, or not. They also need to go down to 0.1 of a Kg to measure weight I think. A high boost turbo will give more power but increased turbo lag. Lastly the temperature affects engine performance and surface grip. So while a colder day will give more power it will also give less surface grip, or take longer for the tyres to warm up.

Seems like a lot of work for the developers of the game but it's not impossible and they only need to get these figures once. Catalogue everything and then they can use them in any future GT games.

 

[soptom]

ummm, Roof scoops aren't just for mid engined cars. Anyone ever driven a 91 Toyota Celica GT-Four rally car? No? I have. Has anyone seen a few select late ninties 555 impreza rally car? Guess what you see on them....that's right, roof scoops. Now, in most racing, roof scoops aren't used at all, but in rally they are. They're not just for MR2s and NSXs.

Those are for ventilating the cabin, no relevance to a game.

 

[soptom]

Enter the CELL processors, able to calculate super complex physics, in fact the processors were integrated for that exact purpose.

If GT5 could calculate fuel, tyres, drag, downforce, temperature, and attach weight to every tuner part, plus re-introduce turbo boost setting. I would be over the moon. For example a scoop cools the engine making it more efficient or brings more cold air into the fuel mixture thus allowing for a higher RPM engine and more power with advanced timing. A front wind splitter/lip could provide more downforce and grip while encouraging a bit of oversteer to get into tight corners easier but will provide more drag along with a bonnet scoop thus hitting the top speed performance. A turbo may provide more power compared to NA but it will also add weight to the car, so will an intercooler, but a carbon fibre shaft will lessen gross weight. Putting less fuel in will also lower the car's total weight but a roll cage will increase it. Bigger wheels will hit the car's Whp but they may provide more grip and be more beneficial overall, or not. They also need to go down to 0.1 of a Kg to measure weight I think. A high boost turbo will give more power but increased turbo lag. Lastly the temperature affects engine performance and surface grip. So while a colder day will give more power it will also give less surface grip, or take longer for the tyres to warm up.

Seems like a lot of work for the developers of the game but it's not impossible and they only need to get these figures once. Catalogue everything and then they can use them in any future GT games.

Now that would make for a great game. 👍

 

[niky]

***sigh*** turbo compression mapping, ecu re-mapping, air-fuel ratio balancing... corner weights, tire pressures... you'd lose yourself for days just setting up for the race...

 

[dj4monie]

Now that would make for a great game. 👍

Amazing how many people want to play REAL LIFE ON a console or a computer instead of actually living a life.

 

[soptom]

Amazing how many people want to play REAL LIFE ON a console or a computer instead of actually living a life.

Just passing on your way to a party were you?

 

[niky]

Amazing how many people want to play REAL LIFE ON a console or a computer instead of actually living a life.

Ahurm, and so why are you on the internet instead of frolicking out in the woods?

 

[ViXeN]

ummm, Roof scoops aren't just for mid engined cars. Anyone ever driven a 91 Toyota Celica GT-Four rally car? No? I have. Has anyone seen a few select late ninties 555 impreza rally car? Guess what you see on them....that's right, roof scoops. Now, in most racing, roof scoops aren't used at all, but in rally they are. They're not just for MR2s and NSXs.

OK, Not that I'm agreeing with anyone, But I'll fill in a blank here... The roof scoops on Rally cars (And I know this because my Dad used to rally) are to cool the driver off!!! Yes, it get's really hot in there without aircon, so the scoops are up to push air into the cabin...

Race cars (Like my RX2) have ducts running from the wheel arches and a pipe blowing air into your face!!!

Other than that, there's no use for roof scoops!!! (Oh yeah, and to cool off MR cars)

 

[amp88]

In some of the rallys of the year (Cyprus being the best example), the roof scoops are also used to feed the driver and co driver some nice dust and rubble.

Seriously though, cabin temps rise to such high levels on the Cyprus rally, partly due to the fact that the climate is so warm and partly because the car's average speed is so low that there's no air being forced through the cabin. I don't remember exact figures, but I think it was in the region of 70-75 degrees centigrade a couple of years ago.