RIDOX Replica Garage : AUDI R8 LMS Ultra (Audi Sport Team Phoenix) '12 489HP to 552HP BLANCPAIN

A newly built tune Audi R8 LMS capable of 52.5s at Tsukuba at 528HP.

  1. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

    Messages:
    11,660
    Ridox2JZGTE submitted a new tune:

    RIDOX Replica Garage : AUDI R8 LMS Ultra (Audi Sport Team Phoenix) '12 489HP to 552HP BLANCPAIN - A newly built tune Audi R8 LMS capable of 52.5s at Tsukuba at 528HP.

    Read more about this tune...
     
    MRXAE86 likes this.
  2. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

    Messages:
    11,660
    Ridox2JZGTE updated RIDOX Replica Garage : AUDI R8 LMS Ultra (Audi Sport Team Phoenix) '12 489HP to 552HP BLANCPAIN with a new update entry:

    Alternate Suspension, LSD and Aero for Better Stability on Low Speed

    Read the rest of this update entry...
     
  3. Toshisama

    Toshisama

    Messages:
    2
    This car was a nightmare for me, no it's so good it feels like cheating :)

    If you don't mind sharing your tips and have time for me, what observations have led you to such a setting, I'd be very proud to be able to analyse this myself in a distant future :)

    In any case thanks again for your settings.
     
  4. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

    Messages:
    11,660
    Glad the car drives well for you, the R8 LMS is rather a unique case. I bought the car since back in 1.00, and with a stock tune it was bad for me, so I changed the toe to neutral value and reset the camber to all zero ( GT6 camber is broken even to this day - zero = max grip ) and the 1st thing I noticed was how twithcy it was at low speed. Then I tried simple test, drove at 30-60kmh and do a zig zag. The car easily over rotate with the front tire having too much grip compared to the rear tire.

    Once I understand the main cause, I tuned the car to make the front and rear closer in grip balance. There are many ways to tackle this, a lot of tuners here uses ballast ( plenty of it ) and placed it at the front to make the front heavier and slower to respond and giving the car more neutral balance with less weight shift. Another way is to use ride height, the current ride height physics is reversed in GT6 compared to real life, with higher front than rear = more rotation, and lower front than rear = less rotation. Quite a lot uses this to help with the oversteer, dumping the nose down and raise the rear.

    I always try to avoid to use ballast or ride height bug to tune cars. I prefer realistic weight distribution and not to use easy fix approach as it has side effects.

    I concentrated on spring rate, damper, arb, camber, toe, LSD and aero for this car. Choosing spring rate is the 1st step and also the most important, it's the foundation of a suspension, damper, arb, camber and toe are to support the spring.

    The R8 rear spring rate is set to give more stability on all speed, with damper and arb to make the car easier to drive. Rear toe helped to stabilize the car under braking, and a bit of camber at the front to reduce the front sensitivity. You can use zero camber front and back for max possible grip in cornering, but you may have a sharper steering, thus requires more accurate input.

    The LSD is the most crucial part when it comes to stable braking and overall handling. The initial torque is high to make sure the rear tire do not easily break away traction on lesser load, with high braking to reduce oversteer when braking hard ( turn in ) and coasting / off throttle.

    Aero is another important aspect, the front aero has great effect on the car balance in medium to high speed. It's also somewhat has small effect on low speed steering ( just below 100kmh to 160kmh ) I used lower aero to make the front less pointy at high speed with rear to balance it and giving the car more acceleration and top speed :D Aero is very dependent too on track. Increase both front and rear by same amount if you want more aero, add 30 on both for a start.

    If you want to learn more about the car, try to change LSD values, reduce/increase all 3 value ( initial,accel,brake ), then try the car, make a note of how LSD affects the car. Then you can try to increase or decrease only the rear spring rate, use 0.25kg/mm value increment each time, and observe how it affect the rear tires and balance.

    Please understand that all of my tunes/replica are base tune, sometimes small tweaks can do wonders to suit one's driving style :)
     
    Daduce1947 and GT_Astroboy like this.
  5. Toshisama

    Toshisama

    Messages:
    2
    Woo, thanks a lot Ridox2JZGTE for such a well constructed and detailed reply.
    My analysis was : "this car is completely unstable on heavy braking, I'll try increasing the break LSD figure and decreasing the brakes on the rear'"and "oh my, my driving skills are still to improve.." .. period

    Now, I've got a lot of things to try, mainly experimenting spring rate tuning, since it seems to be the key on this car, and since I'm an old school GT Player (15 years of addiction) staunch believer in the virtues of a good chassis more than LSD ("winners don't use drugs" said the pinball) and other electronic "crutches", even if i know it's clearly indispensable to compete in modern real-life high-class events.

    The days of "driving only" are over, as a real "complete" GT enthusiast, I have to enhance my tuning skills, and I'm very happy to have examples like you to follow :)

    Thanks again :)
     
    GT_Astroboy likes this.
  6. gtpcaine

    gtpcaine

    Messages:
    1,877
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    This tune probably does work great, but I'm currently testing for a race at Monza, so with no downforce. My own setup was letting me down, so figured I would give yours a shot. We have a 1380kg limit, (so Audi can have 50:50) but I set position to 0, to maintain stock distribution. It might just be the extra weight, but the car felt horrible. Understeer on turn in, mass oversteer on exit. I then moved the ballast forward, still horrible. Used ride height bug, still horrible. Changed diff to 5 / 15 / 10 and it improved a lot, but still more unforgiving and slower than my own tune.

    So basically, what I'm saying is, the tune is probably good when used exactly as posted, but as a note for others, might not work so well with higher weight limits or with low downforce tracks.
     
  7. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

    Messages:
    11,660
    The tune is specifically made for Blancpain replica, so an altered weight distribution with lots of ballast will not work :) Spring rate, the most fundamental part of the tune will need to be changed to suit the new weight distribution, damper and ARB will need to be retuned. Even a slight change of spring rate at the rear wheel can alter the handling balance/behavior on the tune I posted.

    The tune works with low downforce, but I am not too sure what you mean with no downforce, do you mean minimum front and back ? The tune downforce is quite low, it should work on minimum with some tweaking on rear toe and ARB, of course with stock weight and distribution. With over 100kg more, the car will need a new tune :)
     
  8. GT_Astroboy

    GT_Astroboy

    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    United States
    Wow, Ridox2JZGTE -- Thank you for this generous explanation. Like others have said, this car was undriveable as it was.

    But I was also experiencing some non-intuitive results from the tuning I was doing, thinking I had no idea what I was doing, especially in light of the big hoopla about the new suspension dynamics in GT6 vs GT5. Well, at least I had not lost my mind.. :-))

    Thanks again for sharing your knowledge, it is quite an education for us novices!! ;-)

    Cheers!!
     
  9. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

    Messages:
    11,660
    I have added little update for 1.09 ( camber fix and amended rear spring rate value - previously 1.08 has lower rear spring rate limit )

    Alternative Setup ( Suspension/LSD/Aero ) for 1.09 :

    Ride Height: 75 75
    Spring Rate: 21.43 19.39 (lowest possible)
    Dampers (Compression): 6 7
    Dampers (Extension): 5 5
    Anti-Roll Bars: 4 3
    Camber Angle: 2.2 3.2
    Toe Angle: -0.08 0.08

    Alternate Aero :
    FRONT : 280
    REAR : 680

    Alternate LSD ( loose )
    Initial Torque : 51
    Acceleration Sensitivity: 51
    Braking Sensitivity: 51


    These should make the R8 Ultra Phoenix drives well on 1.09 with working camber :D
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2014
  10. GT_Astroboy

    GT_Astroboy

    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    United States
    [quote="Please understand that all of my tunes/replica are base tune, sometimes small tweaks can do wonders to suit one's driving style :)[/quote]

    RIDOX, can you comment on ride height. What is the correlation between ride height and suspension performance ? What are some starting points or rules of thumb ?
     
  11. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

    Messages:
    11,660
    RIDOX, can you comment on ride height. What is the correlation between ride height and suspension performance ? What are some starting points or rules of thumb ?[/quote]

    Generally the lower the car, the lower the center of gravity, this helps greatly with stability and cornering performance. There's a catch though, going too low can have detrimental effect, if the suspension is not stiff enough ( springs + damper ) or the road condition is too bumpy, the car might bottom out. A condition where the suspension ran out of travel and hit the bump stop/chassis. This will create sudden loss of grip for a moment, which can be really bad - usually leads to a spin.

    The stiffer you set the springs + damper, the lower you can go, but bear in mind the car weight and the track surface ( smooth or bumpy or high elevation ). I usually start lowering by 20 or 30 mm when I made the spring stiffer. On heavier car or with high downforce, you need to add a bit more play, as the car needs extra travel when it encountered drastic elevation changes or when it reaches high speed ( cars with big wing/downforce at the rear will start to drop down in ride height above 200kmh -sometimes more than 10mm )

    You can use the data logger to help checking if the ride height is low enough. Personally, I just drive the car on bumpy tracks/high elevation to see if the car lost traction or unstable at certain places. Some of good track for fine tuning ride height : Trial Mountain, Bathurst, Nordschleife ( elevation and bumpy ) while for high downforce car at high speed, use High Speed Ring, Special Stage Route X, Daytona Oval.

    If a high downforce car is too low, it might get skittish or spins when going at over 250kmh on the turns at SSRX and Daytona.

    For the Audi LMS Ultra Phoenix, 75mm is the lowest when it has full power capable of 400kmh and driving to top speed at SSRX ( lower aero might need to be used ) Any lower than 75mm will make the car unstable when on the straight and easily spins on the turn due to bottom out.
     
    GT_Astroboy likes this.
  12. GT_Astroboy

    GT_Astroboy

    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    United States
    Thank you Ridox, this is very useful.

    My favourite track is Nordschleife. In GT5 I logged a couple 100,000 km, and have loved every minute of it. I drive with none of the assists engaged, and like to drive without touching the curbs, forcing myself to develop an elegant and efficient driving practice. There, the default settings on the more advanced cars seemed to do the job, at least for me.

    Through your explanations, I now see that Tuning is a whole new realm into which I can develop; allowing me to expand my understanding and skills.

    Cheers!!
     
  13. Daduce1947

    Daduce1947

    Messages:
    946
    Location:
    United States
    Thanks RIDOX for this tune partner!! Re; the latest 630pp GT3 TT event at Suzuka. For this event the BMW Z4 GT3 is the car of choice for the "majority",, but I like to be among the "DARE TO BE DIFFERENT" crowd and am trying as many different cars as possible. The GTR Base Model was my first choice and posted laps in the 1:55's,, then we moved on to the Audi's. Only because I already had the car, tried unsuccessfully on my own to get the R8 LMS Ultra (Team Phoenix) '12 around the track for a couple of days and had just about given up on it,, then decided to see what I could find on "the planet". Found your tune, made just a few alterations (I'll not post them here as this is YOUR tune) to fit my driving style, turned OFF all assists with exception of Active Steering set at STRONG and WHA-LAH!! Posted a 1:52.505 after 6 laps. I believe the car has more after I clean up my driving line and brake/acceleration points and learn to trust the car more. I believe with an improved line the car can go into the mid to lower 1:50's and that's absolutely awesome as far as I'm concerned! Until I found your tune I, like many, many others had parked these LMS Audi's and left them tagged as USELESS and virtually undrivable,, NO LONGER IS THIS THE CASE! Your tune has tamed the BEAST, placed it back on the list of VERY competative cars and we Thank You for sharing it!! :bowdown::tup::tup: