Rubber banding

[TheeFrogmanlego]

Should it be in GT6 yes or no, This is the only way we can get competitive AI racing.. GT 1-3 had it

 

[1241Penguin]

"Rubber banding" is where the AI slows when they're ahead, and speeds up when they're behind, correct?

If so, then no thanks. Honestly, if GT6's AI is fixed so that they are at least competitive, then there would be no need for it. Having a rubber band AI is just another way of saying that "our AI sucks", IMO.

 

[TheeFrogmanlego]

"Rubber banding" is where the AI slows when they're ahead, and speeds up when they're behind, correct?

If so, then no thanks. Honestly, if GT6's AI is fixed so that they are at least competitive, then there would be no need for it. Having a rubber band AI is just another way of saying that "our AI sucks", IMO.

No it docent slow down it stays at its default pace, if it falls behind the game kicks in a speed multiplier.. look at motor storm pacific rift, perfect AI... Hard but beatable..
And there's two types of AI. what GT5 had and what gt 1-3 had.. rubber banding or set pace , set pace is either unbelievably hard or pansy slow !

 

[Samus]

No, absolutely not. The only thing worse than slow AI are unrealistically fast/slow AI. If I make a 10 second gap I want to keep it, not have a car go at unrealistic speeds to catch me up.

 

[X-Power]

No, absolutely not. The only thing worse than slow AI are unrealistically fast/slow AI. If I make a 10 second gap I want to keep it, not have a car go at unrealistic speeds to catch me up.

I agree. Rubber banding AI is very arcadey and does not belong in a game that aims for realism.

 

[Tornado]

It also needs blue shells, Starman invincibility, Bullet Bills and Lightning.



Because we might as well not cut corners if we are going to completely ruin the game.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

No it docent slow down it stays at its default pace, if it falls behind the game kicks in a speed multiplier.. look at motor storm pacific rift, perfect AI... Hard but beatable..
And there's two types of AI. what GT5 had and what gt 1-3 had.. rubber banding or set pace , set pace is either unbelievably hard or pansy slow !

"Two types of AI"?

About rubber-banding; no, absolutely not. I appreciate the idea behind it, but it's absolutely silly to put in a game that strives for realism. Have an internal, invisible hierarchy of AI difficulty for different levels of championships (the Amateur levels would have easier AI than, say, Pro level GT Mode events), and a user-selectable level of difficulty (that moves the global AI level around, but still keeps that difference between Amateur and Pro, for progression) to appease the different levels of players would solve a lot of issues. Give players bonuses who use the hardest difficulties.

I'd much prefer that to the idea that suddenly, Mr. Second Place has found five seconds a lap once he's been passed.

 

[Hayden]

Just using the aggressiveness system that already exists in arcade mode would go a long way in my opinion. By making it scale as you progress (as SlipZtrEm suggested) would be fantastic. Another way to implement it would be an AI difficulty adjustment (like the seasonal's performance difference one) that multiplies your winnings depending on the difficulty of AI you choose to race against.

At this point, nothing is certain for Gran Turismo 6, so we're all going to be in the dark until PD shines their marketing light in our direction. Right now, anything is possible but nothing is certain, so expecting the worst and hoping for the best is the view I'm taking into the forthcoming sequel, and It's one I encourage others to use to try and minimize the release day disappointment many of us felt last time around.

 

[xiSealHDz]

No, absolutely not. The only thing worse than slow AI are unrealistically fast/slow AI. If I make a 10 second gap I want to keep it, not have a car go at unrealistic speeds to catch me up.

this.

 

[t_w_a_h]

a game that strives for realism.

Really?!?

What game is that? It's not GT5 for sure.

If it makes the offline game less dull (and let's be honest how could they possibly make it MORE dull!) I'm all for rubber banding. FM4 has implemented it well/subtley enough so that it doesn't really feel directly like rubber-banding but gives close racing without the overhead truly dynamic AI would have.

And if you want to pull the realistic card.... do drivers always hit the same splits, lap after lap after lap, race after race after race *OR* could they in fact be motivated to put in faster times once they have been overtaken? In a "real" race, if you are winning by thirty seconds do you go flat out each and every lap with the inherent risk involved or do you go at nine tenths to save the car and minimise risk?

Disguise the rubber banding well enough (cars making mistakes and not always running the same lines, particularly when they are "hot" and pushing hard i.e. rubberbanding) and you can get some good close racing without putting down a huge chunk of your budget on AI coding.

 

[daan]

No, kill it with fire.

And if you want to pull the realistic card.... do drivers always hit the same splits, lap after lap after lap, race after race after race *OR* could they in fact be motivated to put in faster times once they have been overtaken?

Why would they wait until they've been overtaken before attempting to speed up and then matching your pace? If you're catching the guy in front, and he wasn't already going flat out, surely he would attempt to speed up before you got there in an attempt to stay ahead?

 

[t_w_a_h]

...surely he would attempt to speed up before you got there in an attempt to stay ahead?

Which is something that can be suitably replicated with subtle rubber banding.

My point was simply that people, real people, have constant and dynamic motivators that influence their decision making on the fly. In the context of motorsport that implies running faster or slower depending on your position, your relative need to do well in the race in question, whether you were blocked on your last lap, if the guy in front wrecked you last season, whether you're Sebastian Vettel and like to track your own stats etc. etc.

Equally (and rather simplistically) some people are just inherently faster following than they are leading and vice versa.

Much of this can't currently [feasibly] be coded into a mainstream game [with consumer level hardware] but can be effectively faked using subtle and to an extent dynamic rubber banding techniques.

 

[ch3ng]

No. I don't want a unrealistic AI. I want a realistic competitive AI.

Should it be in GT6 yes or no, This is the only way we can get competitive AI racing.. GT 1-3 had it

No it is not thr only way. Some games have a good AI. PD needs to add staff for the AI team.

I agree. Rubber banding AI is very arcadey and does not belong in a game that aims for realism.

This

 

[Zuku]

I'd rather have unrealistic competitive AI then what PD did to GT5. I know people don't like it, but with GT it's about having fun which from 1-4 it was and 5 heck no.

It might be arcadey for some, but until I see a much better AI put in place I'm for it.

 

[Tornado]

I'd rather have unrealistic competitive AI then what PD did to GT5. I know people don't like it, but with GT it's about having fun which from 1-4 it was and 5 heck no.

There isn't a single standard by which GT4's completely braindead, repeatedly slow and "make the exact same mistakes lap after lap after lap" AI is better than GT5's. The only reason it appeared that way is because PD did a much better job with car selection with GT4, whereas they didn't even care for GT5.

And if you want to pull the realistic card.... do drivers always hit the same splits, lap after lap after lap, race after race after race *OR* could they in fact be motivated to put in faster times once they have been overtaken? In a "real" race, if you are winning by thirty seconds do you go flat out each and every lap with the inherent risk involved or do you go at nine tenths to save the car and minimise risk?

That's not rubber banding. That is GT5's B-Spec AI with better emotion triggers.

 

[IceMan PJN]

"Rubber banding" is where the AI slows when they're ahead, and speeds up when they're behind, correct?

No, because that wouldn't be unrealistic. It's not unusual for a driver in the lead to ease off and play it conservative (no point pushing yourself into a wall for nothing) and to get more aggressive when behind.

Rubberbanding is an unrealistic technique wherewith cars magically gain pace when behind you so as to keep competition alive.

I hate rubberbanding.

 

[dr_slump]

No, because that wouldn't be unrealistic. It's not unusual for a driver in the lead to ease off and play it conservative (no point pushing yourself into a wall for nothing) and to get more aggressive when behind.

Rubberbanding is an unrealistic technique wherewith cars magically gain pace when behind you so as to keep competition alive.

I hate rubberbanding.

The effect would be way too big of course.

 

[niky]

Basically that.

"Emotional" AI is completely different from "Rubber-band" AI. Rubber-banding is dreadful. Having an AI driver suddenly find an extra two or three seconds per lap once they're far behind is completely unrealistic, and as unrewarding and uninteresting for the good player as having to start inexplicably from last place every race.

If everyone else speeds up more the faster I drive, what incentive is there to drive faster than I need to to just hang on to first place? Why not play the Mario Kart game and hang back in second place all race long to keep from getting hit by blue shells?

Having an AI driver bump up the pace a few tenths, drive harder, brake later and generally drive more aggressively when you're up their tail or right in front of them is much better, and more reflective of how actual drivers drive. The only thing wrong with GT5's AI engine is that drivers fall asleep when they're too far behind, when some drivers will push harder when they fall behind. This is what ruins it.

Just a tiny bit of tweaking and adjusting the AI to drive to the car's full performance envelope at full attack would make GT5's AI nearly perfect.

 

[Exorcet]

I'd be fine with it as long as it can be turned off.

Have an internal, invisible hierarchy of AI difficulty for different levels of championships (the Amateur levels would have easier AI than, say, Pro level GT Mode events), and a user-selectable level of difficulty (that moves the global AI level around, but still keeps that difference between Amateur and Pro, for progression) to appease the different levels of players would solve a lot of issues. Give players bonuses who use the hardest difficulties.

I don't know about forcing different difficulty levels between event tiers. Once you're good at the game, the low level events might become boring. If we have an event creator, nothing to worry about, we can just recreate low level events with maximum skill AI. If not, we might lose out on good events just because they're in the beginner tier.

 

[ZohsixGT5]

No, there should be difficulty settings for AI. Beginner, intermediate, hard, expert, legend.

 

[Liquid]

Rubberbanding is an unrealistic technique wherewith cars magically gain pace when behind you so as to keep competition alive.

I hate rubberbanding.

As do I. It killed Formula 1 99 and made the game pretty much worthless.

 

[Tornado]

If everyone else speeds up more the faster I drive, what incentive is there to drive faster than I need to to just hang on to first place? Why not play the Mario Kart game and hang back in second place all race long to keep from getting hit by blue shells?

Which is the rub. Rubber band AI is nothing more than a punishment for the player being good at the game.

 

[Ddrizle]

Rubber banding included or not, is fine with me. Realistic or not, some like more of a challenge(no matter how it's delivered) & some don't, it is what it is.

 

[Samus]

Rubber banding or slow AI are NOT the only options though.

 

[Spagetti69]

What about silly draft bonuses too. That's very similar to RB.

 

[lldantell]

"Rubber banding" is where the AI slows when they're ahead, and speeds up when they're behind, correct?

If so, then no thanks. Honestly, if GT6's AI is fixed so that they are at least competitive, then there would be no need for it. Having a rubber band AI is just another way of saying that "our AI sucks", IMO.

The ai in gt5 is already bad.so you don't want to make it worst

 

[Ramosis]

Rubber banding is not realistic, but way better than Rabbit AI in GT5. I tired of overtake the rest of field in one or two laps, then chase the 1st place until the end of race.

 

[TheeFrogmanlego]

Which is the rub. Rubber band AI is nothing more than a punishment for the player being good at the game.

Pushes you to be better , but whatever rolls your boat.. real people rubber band online.. when im back I go faster , when im in front i don't go as fast due to mistakes.. Any hows , All your arguments are invalid due to GT 1 - 3 having fantastic AI.. Rubber banding AI , but then again each individual car had its own %. Look at Xenn's threads He found the percentages in GT3.. currently Gt5's AI is amazing at how it dodges and reacts to you but once it falls behind it stays behind and once it passes you it slows down 0.0... My only gripe with GT 1-3's AI is they were on rails hahaha and never made mistakes .
Rubber banding a gaming technique , that proves to show competitive AI ..
Just like sprites , shaders ETC ETC. You have to get Used to this stuff in video games, Devs cut corners all the time, besides what you guys are asking for is impossible on even the ps4.. it takes super computers to process real time learning , What GT does is nearly set a reaction perimeter on a object that has been set to a default speed and track , So yea that's "realistic" Why does adding speed multipliers make it any less?

 

[Tornado]

Pushes you to be better

No it doesn't. With rubber band AI, the better you are the harder (and more unfair) the game is. There is no incentive to play better when that just makes things more difficult for you.


And that's true no matter what the genre it pops up in.

Any hows , All your arguments are invalid due to GT 1 - 3 having fantastic AI.

It did not. It had completely robotic AI with a performance multiplier implemented to keep races close; which it singularly failed to do in the handful of races where the rubber band effect was not in place. The only reason it was better than it was in GT4 was because the physics were better for the AI type (brakes in particular) and because PD took more care choosing the car selection pools in the first three games. The AI itself was exceedingly poor compared to something like what was in the TOCA games at the time.

 

[TheeFrogmanlego]

No it doesn't. With rubber band AI, the better you are the harder the game is. There is no incentive to play better when that just makes things more difficult for you.


And that's true no matter what the genre it pops up in.

Spoon fed gamers argument.. that's how competition is in real life FYI