RUF:Car Builder or Porsche Tuner?

[Mr. Boy]

Personally, I consider Ruf to be a car maker since they build their cars using Porsche chassis and their own parts (or at least I think so). They also tune regular Porsches. What do you think?

 

[Duke]

Hi, Mr. Boy.

Actually, I think there have been several discussions on this topic already. It's pretty much been agreed that yes, Ruf is considered a manufacturer by the German government.

If you try the Search button, and put in "Ruf", then limit the search to Thread Titles on this board, you should get a few previous discussions on it. It's also been covered on the GT3 and GT4 boards as well.

Thanks,

Duke

 

[Young_Warrior]

Even though I know that theyre considered as a car maker in their own respect I think RUF and all the other companies out there like them (amg springs to mind) are just tuners with a very close relationship to the manufacturer.

 

[Gil]

Ruf is a builder.
After Alois Ruf is done with them there is little remaining under the skin that is factory Porsche.
Check out the R & T, and MT articles from the past eleventy years. Even Porshce considers Ruf to be a builder of cars, not merely a tuner.

 

[Jedi2016]

You answered your own question in the first post... they're both. They do both all-original cars AND tuning of already-completed Porsches. A company CAN be both, you know.

 

[Vonie]

Even though I know that theyre considered as a car maker in their own respect I think RUF and all the other companies out there like them (amg springs to mind) are just tuners with a very close relationship to the manufacturer.

But aren't AMG's sold through M-B dealers?
Are Rufs?

 

[Steeda]

But aren't AMG's sold through M-B dealers?
Are Rufs?

amg wasnt a good example, try something like Roush

 

[Master_Yoda]

Ruf is an automobile company located in Germany that bases its vehicle designs on Porsche sports cars, namely the 911 and the Boxster. Ruf is erroneously referred to as a Porsche tuner because Ruf's vehicles appear similar to their Porsche parent models, and usually possess enhanced performance. However, Ruf's cars are significantly different enough in mechanical structure for the German government to declare Ruf an original equipment manufacturer.

 

[Dave A]

You answered your own question in the first post... they're both. They do both all-original cars AND tuning of already-completed Porsches. A company CAN be both, you know.

Spot on, if you take you're 911 to Ruf they will tune it for you. However, the cars they build are not tuned Porsches. The key here is not only do they use more of their own parts (I think 80% of the car is Ruf's own) but they get unassembled Porsche parts where the Porsche parts are used. If you build a car with unassembled parts from various models froma certain manufacturer how can the car you've assembled possibly be a tune xxxx when the car xxxx never existed in the first place.

 

[THE ED3]

i'll tell you how. a company cant take the design of a car from another company and make it themselfs and call it a new different car. it would be like me buying a bunch of honda civics, instaling rebuilt motors from other hondas and making a few parts myself. making a few parts doesnt make them a new company.

when they come out with a totaly different car that they themselves designed and porshe didnt design i'll think about considering them a real company.

 

[Dave A]

They already have, it's called the R50.

Besides plenty of companies have used very similar bodies in the past, the bodies Ruf use are not patented Porsche bodies, so they are not Porsche exclusive designs. But if it's just a completely Ruf exclusive design you want to see here's one.

 

[Dave A]

making a few parts doesnt make them a new company.

Making 80% of the car with your own parts however does, this is what Ruf do.

 

[daan]

i'll tell you how. a company cant take the design of a car from another company and make it themselfs and call it a new different car. it would be like me buying a bunch of honda civics, instaling rebuilt motors from other hondas and making a few parts myself. making a few parts doesnt make them a new company.

when they come out with a totaly different car that they themselves designed and porshe didnt design i'll think about considering them a real company.

Something like 80% of a Ruf is designed and manufactured by Ruf. That makes them a manufacturer.

EDIT: Great minds think alike!

 

[Scaff]

i'll tell you how. a company cant take the design of a car from another company and make it themselfs and call it a new different car. it would be like me buying a bunch of honda civics, instaling rebuilt motors from other hondas and making a few parts myself. making a few parts doesnt make them a new company.

when they come out with a totaly different car that they themselves designed and porshe didnt design i'll think about considering them a real company.

Ruf make more than a few parts for there cars, you're example is of some one taking a civic and adding a few parts is so far from what Ruf do with there models its staggering.

As L4S said the vast majority of the components used in an Ruf are built by themselves, including the gearbox (full Ruf design), brakes and suspension and very, very major re-working of the engine. In some cases only the original Porsche block is retained. Additionally the majprity of the body panels are not Porsche items, but hand-built Ruf panels.

Ruf production cars do not start out life as a 911, they take a bare chassis (which in itself is sometimes modified) and work from the ground up. Porsche have no say in the designor specification of the cars, they are designed by Ruf.

Doesn't sound like just a few parts to me?

Now the real crux of this can be boiled down to two things.

1 - As an individual do you consider Ruf to be a manufacturer? Any answer is strictly speaking correct here, as its a personally opinion. Mine is that they are.

2 - The goverments and regulatory bodies of the USA, Germany, Europe and a host of other countries class Ruf as a manufacturer. In law they have this status, so any personal opinions on it are(as I have said) purely personal.

Like it or not, as far as the governing and regulatory bodies of the motor industry for most of the world markets are concerned Ruf are a manufacturer. Doesn't matter if anyone agrees or not, that just how it is.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Dave A]

👍 Thats a pretty good summary there scaff.

 

[Scaff]

👍 Thats a pretty good summary there scaff.

Thanks L4S.

Must confess its just one of those subjects that bugs me a bit, I must have written that out (in slightly different forms) at least half a dozen times.

👍

Scaff

 

[Dave A]

And boy do I know the feeling . I think theres more debates about this in the GT3 and GT4 forums than anywhere else.

 

[THE ED3]

i understand they are legaly a different company. thats fine with me. i just dont think any company that makes a car that looks very similar to another car should be a different car company. now, what i ment before was when they ONLY make totaly different looking cars. i'm sorry i didnt clarify that. by this i mean they cant have it both ways. if they make a car themselves that IS different but still make cars that look like different cars they cant be a different company. kit car makers are not different car makers. i cant buy a ginetta kit car and have a real one a few months and cut knuckles later. this is how i look at ruf. they make great cars based on other great cars. i understand they totaly rebuild the cars themselves but it doesnt matter to me. again, its like i took a civic and rebuilt everything using different parts that didnt come on that car. just because i use totaly different engine internals, use carbon fiber body parts and rework the suspension doesnt mean i can call it a Justin special. it still looks 90% like a honda civic.

 

[Dave A]

First off, Kit car manufacturers are manufacturers, many of them offer factory built models, the choice is yours if you want the kit or fully built most of the time.

Secondly Ruf DO make their own car, as I showed you earlier it's called the R50 and does not look like any Porsche.

Thirdly Ruf don't completely re-build any Porshes, the buy a Porsche chassis then put their own parts on that, theres no base car to re-build. So it's certainly not a tuned model either.

Fourth, you're example with the Honda Civic is nothing like what Ruf do, what you've done is taken a Civic and tuned it replaced parts ect, Ruf don't take a 911 and replace any parts, they don't start with a base model.

 

[Scaff]

i understand they are legaly a different company. thats fine with me. i just dont think any company that makes a car that looks very similar to another car should be a different car company. now, what i ment before was when they ONLY make totaly different looking cars. i'm sorry i didnt clarify that. by this i mean they cant have it both ways. if they make a car themselves that IS different but still make cars that look like different cars they cant be a different company. kit car makers are not different car makers. i cant buy a ginetta kit car and have a real one a few months and cut knuckles later. this is how i look at ruf. they make great cars based on other great cars. i understand they totaly rebuild the cars themselves but it doesnt matter to me. again, its like i took a civic and rebuilt everything using different parts that didnt come on that car. just because i use totaly different engine internals, use carbon fiber body parts and rework the suspension doesnt mean i can call it a Justin special. it still looks 90% like a honda civic.

Thats why I did say that everyone is entitled to an opinion on it.

If you did build the Justin special chances are you would have to call it just that. Try and call it a Honda Civic and Honda would have you in court so fast. They would (quite rightly) claim that the car is not now a Honda Civic as they did not build it, nor do them warranty it. You would almost certainly be able to keep the body shape, but they may insist that you remove all Honda and Civic badging from the car.

Now the above may sound silly, but its a real world example, just using the Justin special.

Pro-drive have built a road going version of the Ferrari 550 LM, its a major piece of modification (but still looks like a 550) and will be sold in limited production numbers. Now while the production prototype carried Ferrari badging; Pro-drive have been told by Ferrari that if they call the finished car a Ferrari (or badge it as one) in any way, they will take legal action aginst them.

Final build of the cars will be carried out by esmotorsport, take a look at the last paragraph in this linked article

Its a funny old world

Regards

Scaff

 

[THE ED3]

Secondly Ruf DO make their own car, as I showed you earlier it's called the R50 and does not look like any Porsche.

if you dont see the styling references to the carrara gt and the 917... well i wont say your wrong but it should be right there. i'm not saying it is those cars or anything else about it though as i'm no expert on it.

Thirdly Ruf don't completely re-build any Porshes, the buy a Porsche chassis then put their own parts on that, theres no base car to re-build. So it's certainly not a tuned model either.

the fact that its a porshe chassis right there makes it a porshe to me.

now about the civic. i mean if i totaly stripped down the car to its bare chassis and then rebuilt it using non-honda parts when i could (say 80% as thats the number givin for what ruf use) then re named it "the Justin special" sure, it would be a "Justin special" but that doesnt change that fact that it looks the same as a honda civic and was built with the same chassis.

now i have no problem really with them being "legaly" a different company. i just dont think they are.

and to further my kit car point. i dont mean to contradict myself with that. what i ment was that while the car isnt an a/c cobra or whatever it still looks like one so it could be called an a/c cobra. calling it a "bob special" when its clearly based on an a/c cobra would be inncorrect by itself.

 

[daan]

The bottom line, as Scaff said, is that Ruf are recognised as a manufacturer by countries all over the world. No amount of discussion here can change that.

I think one of the reasons that some folk don't agree with that is that Rufs look like Porsches, but every panel on a Ruf is different from the Porsche version, and a Ruf panel will not fit the 911/Boxster.

 

[Famine]

i understand they are legaly a different company. thats fine with me. i just dont think any company that makes a car that looks very similar to another car should be a different car company. now, what i ment before was when they ONLY make totaly different looking cars. i'm sorry i didnt clarify that. by this i mean they cant have it both ways. if they make a car themselves that IS different but still make cars that look like different cars they cant be a different company. kit car makers are not different car makers. i cant buy a ginetta kit car and have a real one a few months and cut knuckles later. this is how i look at ruf. they make great cars based on other great cars. i understand they totaly rebuild the cars themselves but it doesnt matter to me. again, its like i took a civic and rebuilt everything using different parts that didnt come on that car. just because i use totaly different engine internals, use carbon fiber body parts and rework the suspension doesnt mean i can call it a Justin special. it still looks 90% like a honda civic.

Daewoo Nexia - based on, and remarkably similar to, Mk2 Vauxhall Astra.
MGRover CitiRover - based on, and identical to, a wierd Chinese thingy.
Vauxhall - identical to Opel, but built in the Vauxhall factory. And the Monaro is identical to the Holden Monaro. And the VX220 is identical to the Lotus Elise under the skin AND is built by Lotus in the Lotus factory. Not to mention the Agila.

Are these guys all not car makers?

and to further my kit car point. i dont mean to contradict myself with that. what i ment was that while the car isnt an a/c cobra or whatever it still looks like one so it could be called an a/c cobra. calling it a "bob special" when its clearly based on an a/c cobra would be inncorrect by itself.

Ever heard of the Dax Tojeiro? Or the term "Fake Snake"?

 

[Dave A]

First off, there may be simialr styling cues used in the R50's design, but if you think it looks like the Porsche Carrera GT or 917 you need to check some pictures of thoes cars. Theres not a single Porsche that has the R50's body or comes close to it in dimensions.

Secondly, even if you do take you're Civic and strip it to the chassis, you've still modified a Civic, Ruf don't take a 911 and strip it to the chassis, they simply take an unbuilt chassis from Porsche much like Jaguar take a chassis from Ford for the Mondeo or Seat take chassis' from VW and the list goes on and on. There is no base model that Ruf srtip down to re-build. Kit cars that look like Cobra's are not based on Cobra's either, that would be far too expensive, AC Cobra's fetch a hell of a lot of cash.

Like Scaff said earlier, if you don't want to class Ruf as a manufacturer that fine, I don't mind that, but what you're saying ie they do the same as what you gave an example of doing with the Civic, is wrong.

 

[THE ED3]

The bottom line, as Scaff said, is that Ruf are recognised as a manufacturer by countries all over the world. No amount of discussion here can change that.

I think one of the reasons that some folk don't agree with that is that Rufs look like Porsches, but every panel on a Ruf is different from the Porsche version, and a Ruf panel will not fit the 911/Boxster.

i know and agree fully.

Daewoo Nexia - based on, and remarkably similar to, Mk2 Vauxhall Astra.
MGRover CitiRover - based on, and identical to, a wierd Chinese thingy.
Vauxhall - identical to Opel, but built in the Vauxhall factory. And the Monaro is identical to the Holden Monaro. And the VX220 is identical to the Lotus Elise under the skin AND is built by Lotus in the Lotus factory. Not to mention the Agila.

Are these guys all not car makers?

this is a very commen practice used my auto makers to expand their line-up without much work. since all companys are owned by the parent company this doesnt make the separet companys not companys. BUT i wont call that volvo(?) suv subaru forester anything but a subaru forester. re badging a car doesnt make that company any less of a company but i wont give them credit for making that car reguardless is they did. its still in this sense a "subaru" or whatever respective company origanly made that car. now, ruf makes high end sports cars different that a porshe underneath. they are much more like a different company then a kit car maker that makes a similar car or a car maker that borrows the design from another car maker to rebadge it to up their sales. RUF is not owned by porshe.

 

[daan]

This could go on all day....

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=51034&highlight=ruf+manufacturer

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=50926&highlight=ruf+manufacturer

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=35935&highlight=ruf+manufacturer

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13690&highlight=ruf+manufacturer

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10714&highlight=ruf+manufacturer

So, to stop us going round in circles....