Sciaru BRZFRS (BreezeFrees)

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Scion may have had a lot of sales but overall I consider them pretty fail and rumor mill over the last few years had been scion was struggling but thats just rumors so I cant be sure. What I meant about financing was just that I am the target buyer... 30 y/o, male enthusiast with the means to actually make a purchase and not do the common Ameeican mistake of trying to live beyond my means (like leasing or financing more than I can afford... Lets face it, cash in hand full purchase is great to them because they know they get all their money). More over, the fact I can do that should indicate Im the type who could easily buy a z or bmw yet Im interested in this car and the immature brand image of scion ruins that for me.

That said Im sure there are others like me... Interested, capable, mature enthusiast who would never buy a scion when a twin is available from subaru.

One other thing to consider is that scion is an image brand, young hipsters and spunky aarp members. Toyota on the other hand needs to get an image freshening, here in the states toyota motor sports at its best is camry nascars that have nothing in common with the production car. They could definitely use some of the super gt supra/sc430 works team image and putting the best sports offering under scion is basically a waste. Almost like making hamburgers from filet and selling them at mcdonalds, the buyers arent gonna know the value of what they are getting and the seller isnt going to capitalize on the product as effectively as would be done in a different setting.
 
a6m5
MSRP. MSRP is set low, but it is non-negotiable. You won't get ripped off, but you won't get a bargain either.

For your trade in, they will give you blue book value, which is pretty high. In normal sales negotiation, dealer tend to start offer at very low value for your trade in.
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Yeah was reading up on that after my post. It seems that some dealers still gouge you on the prices despite PurePricing being a policy.
Msrp still isn't that great as it's a ~couple grand over invoice which is another ~couple grand over actual vehicle price.
The trade in scenario does sound like a very good deal though.


Kent, you seem to be hell bent on maintaining your image.
 
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Kent
Toyota on the other hand needs to get an image freshening, here in the states toyota motor sports at its best is camry nascars that have nothing in common with the production car. They could definitely use some of the super gt supra/sc430 works team image and putting the best sports offering under scion is basically a waste. Almost like making hamburgers from filet and selling them at mcdonalds, the buyers arent gonna know the value of what they are getting and the seller isnt going to capitalize on the product as effectively as would be done in a different setting.
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And yet sadly, that (along with the Tundras in the CORR and Truck Series) are the only Toyotas I have any remote interest in. Where other brands at least have road cars I actually give a damn about (ironically including, the big three American Makes also in Nascar), I don't see anything remotely interesting from Toyota.
 
eSZee
Kent, you seem to be hell bent on maintaining your image.
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I dont understand what you mean but I certainly dont have a problem voicing my opinion on toyota. After owning 3 different gens of corolla and one camry I feel its both my right and obligation to weigh in on the pressing issues for a company Ive been associated with for many years.

Feel free to clear up what you meant about my image. ;)
 
You owning 3 corollas has what to do with your view of scion being a hipster/tween/fail brand, exactly? Owning 3 corollas gives you as much right voicing your opinion of scion, as me owning 6 nissans and voicing my opinion on infinity. The merit is not really there when speaking of "image".
You made it clear that you'd choose the subaru simply cause you don't want to be associated with the image, your personal view of the brand, of scion.
The average age of a scion buyer is 42, so it would seem this image you have of the brand is somewhat indirect.
And as far as dealers preferring cash, that's the first time I heard that in years.

Doing all this on my phone really sucks.
 
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Kent
Scion may have had a lot of sales but overall I consider them pretty fail and rumor mill over the last few years had been scion was struggling but thats just rumors so I cant be sure. What I meant about financing was just that I am the target buyer... 30 y/o, male enthusiast with the means to actually make a purchase and not do the common Ameeican mistake of trying to live beyond my means (like leasing or financing more than I can afford... Lets face it, cash in hand full purchase is great to them because they know they get all their money). More over, the fact I can do that should indicate Im the type who could easily buy a z or bmw yet Im interested in this car and the immature brand image of scion ruins that for me.

That said Im sure there are others like me... Interested, capable, mature enthusiast who would never buy a scion when a twin is available from subaru.

One other thing to consider is that scion is an image brand, young hipsters and spunky aarp members. Toyota on the other hand needs to get an image freshening, here in the states toyota motor sports at its best is camry nascars that have nothing in common with the production car. They could definitely use some of the super gt supra/sc430 works team image and putting the best sports offering under scion is basically a waste. Almost like making hamburgers from filet and selling them at mcdonalds, the buyers arent gonna know the value of what they are getting and the seller isnt going to capitalize on the product as effectively as would be done in a different setting.
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While I agree with you on the brand image, in my neck of the woods, it is not young adults who drives Scion. Much are driven by middle age drivers. It makes sense to me as Scions are economical, no need for negotiations(studies consistently show that buyers hate haggling), and they seem to like Scion styling? lol

Anyways, I do applaud your choice on driving what you can afford. I think most of us agree on the Toyota brand as well. They, along with Scion have clearly lost direction, even before that bogus "unintended acceleration" fiasco(ie idiot drivers, media & U.S. Government causes those). They need to get their act together, no question.
eSZee
Yeah was reading up on that after my post. It seems that some dealers still gouge you on the prices despite PurePricing being a policy.
Msrp still isn't that great as it's a ~couple grand over invoice which is another ~couple grand over actual vehicle price.
The trade in scenario does sound like a very good deal though.
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I wasn't aware of dealers violating the set prices. I actually have hard time believing that. While I'm not familiar with the Scion pricing anymore than what we have discussed so far, you would assume the violation of that degree would be penalized very heavily by the Toyota. You rip off few grand off the customer, so you can lose your franchise? I don't know, but then again, I'm not familiar with the fine print section of their policy either. *shrug*

I do agree that MSRP isn't that great, but it is lower for what you are getting. Scion cars are loaded, even while the $$$ options they will try to sell you. And if you've shopped for hot models before, you know that dealers(Non-Scion) inflate the MSRP. It is almost expected that manufacture website & your local dealer has different starting pricing point.
 
eSZee
And as far as dealers preferring cash, that's the first time I heard that in years.
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This used to be the case years ago, but now-a-days, it only works with independent dealers or very rarely, some exotic dealers will cut back the price on some options mainly because their customers don't finance.

For the rest of us general folks, financing is usually always the better way to go for dealerships; they make more money off it from the kickbacks.
 
eSZee
You owning 3 corollas has what to do with your view of scion being a hipster/tween/fail brand, exactly? Owning 3 corollas gives you as much right voicing your opinion of scion, as me owning 6 nissans and voicing my opinion on infinity. The merit is not really there when speaking of "image".
You made it clear that you'd choose the subaru simply cause you don't want to be associated with the image, your personal view of the brand, of scion.
The average age of a scion buyer is 42, so it would seem this image you have of the brand is somewhat indirect.
And as far as dealers preferring cash, that's the first time I heard that in years.

Doing all this on my phone really sucks.
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Well lets be clear, Im not responsible for scions marketing approach so the hip part of the image falls at their feet. Also, 42 is right about what an average would be if the majority of buyers are scattered from 20-60 but thats just my impression based on who I most commonly see driving scions.
Moreover, my impression of their image is not related to my toyota history- my opinions of toyota are based on that history and in the end I was specifically addressing why I felt toyota should have kept this car under their name and not put it with scion. Finally, Im sure dealers generally do prefer to get their money but then again, they love extra money from financing so Id say its a toss up (unless you get really low rates like subby giving me 2% and honda offering me 1%).

With all that said, it seems to me you got some hostility towards me because your replies to me havent really had anything to do with this car or my opinion that it was a mistake to use scion instead of toyota (leaving subaru as the real winner here).
 
eSZee
The average age of a scion buyer is 42, so it would seem this image you have of the brand is somewhat indirect.
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Sounds about like how old the parent of a 16 year old girl might be when buying her a tC...

I really don't see any Scions on a regular basis besides first gen tCs these days. I've seen a couple new tCs, and I know like one person with a new xB (:sick:). xDs are pretty rare and I don't believe that xAs even exist anymore.
 
Scion cannot be called a dying brand. They are currently in a funk, but that does not mean that any attempt to turn things around is meaningless. They are a brand targeted towards youngsters. This carries two problems:
  • The economy is in the toilet, and the first people who are going to stop buying new cars are younger folk who are buying their first new one (or whose parents are buying it for them) instead of buying a second or third used one. This is Scion's target demographic.
  • The redesigned xB was basically an epic fail in regards to appeal to original xB owners (even more so since the Soul and Cube came out), and Toyota is going to have to take steps to correct that when it is redesigned again. This isn't normally a problem, but that particular model made up nearly half the brand's sales so it really hurts the brand's bottom line.

Now, the economy isn't going to be bad forever, so when it starts picking up and people start buying things Scion's bread and butter model (the tC) will probably pick back up as well. And the iQ coming out in America will probably reignite the same interest in the brand that the original xB did, and with the same crowd (that isn't to say that I think they will sell any, but I doubt Toyota intended for that to be the point anyways).


I personally never wanted this to be a Scion. I think their sales structure is a gimmicky way of ripping you off for being lazy, and I would much rather Toyota make the Toyota brand back into what it was 15 years ago with cars like this rather than raising the white flag and offloading them on a separate brand. But I'm not under any illusion that Scion isn't also a natural choice for this vehicle, and it will probably make a nice male complement to the 20-something hairdresser crowd that normally buys tCs.
 
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Most shoppers are scared of negotiations, not lazy(of course they do exist as well). From the consumer's perspective, car sales is a dishonest business. It's not that long ago where pushy sales pretty much equaled car sales. I've always been a believer that if the salesman is nice to you, good chance that you are not getting a great deal. Of course, there are exceptions to everything, but I think most people who understand the structure of car sales can see where I'm coming from.

I guess I just don't see Scions as ripoffs. I've seen ripoffs. Ford or Hondas are more of ripoffs in the area I live in. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE them both. But what they are asking for, you'll need Suburban-sized discount(think many thousands $$$) for them to be a great deal. Scions, while they may not be killer deals, I find their pricing acceptable. Especially considering how their vehicles are equipped.
 
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Kent
With all that said, it seems to me you got some hostility towards me because your replies to me havent really had anything to do with this car or my opinion that it was a mistake to use scion instead of toyota (leaving subaru as the real winner here).
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Hostility? No. All I said was that you were worried about your image, maybe using "hellbent" was a bad choice, and that's why you would pick the subaru.
 
Yeah sorry escolated quick, my subbie preference is because I my first second third and fourth (sorry comas are a pain on iphone) cars were toyotas. I really liked all those except the '09 corolla, so Im relatively old school in liking toyota on the scion timeline. When scion was introduced I didnt get a good impression (box cars and what not). Later I even gave the mid-model tc a chance dispite sunroof concerns (hough I heard it was fixed).
After overcoming my problems with the brand distinction I still wasnt sold on pricing or product. The end result was a Short lived '09 corolla purchase due to recall concerns with long term value in mind.

So... Old toyota fan, not a fan of scion, moved to subaru ('10 ipmreza 2.5 wagon) and honda (civic). That sort of background makes me say I dont like toyotas decision to put the frs under scion. Id consider the toyota branded frs just as quickly as the subbie but not the s ion.
 
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I'd pick subie over the scion as well, though styling might change that. Brands just don't have that huge of an effect on my preference, unless it's an american brand. Not sure why, either.

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/05/21/toyobaru-spotted-on-the-405/
toyobaru-spy-01.jpg

So, the shot I posted on the last page is apparently of the Subaru. Pics above taken from same car, focus by the looks of the cheap dash, as the shot on previous page.
It has Subie plates apparently but it looks identical to the car we saw at the ring, doesn't it?
 
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It does, way too close to the Toyota. My thoughts are that it could be the Subaru in Toyota clothing to help keep their design under wraps until they are 100% ready to show it to us.
 
My feeling now, is that all the camo shots and the nurb video are of the subaru. The forester wheels and the sti wing make me think that. While the scion/toyota have only been seen at the auto shows.
 
a6m5
I guess I just don't see Scions as ripoffs. I've seen ripoffs. Ford or Hondas are more of ripoffs in the area I live in. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE them both. But what they are asking for, you'll need Suburban-sized discount(think many thousands $$$) for them to be a great deal. Scions, while they may not be killer deals, I find their pricing acceptable. Especially considering how their vehicles are equipped.
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I'm just taking a shot in the dark, but I assume that the Fords & Hondas in your area are marked up by the dealers due to unnecessary add-ons or premiums, yes?

If so, we have a similar issues here. The Ford dealers mark up the popular cars & the Honda dealers all have $276 add ons (amazing how all the different parts are all conveniently the exact same price).
 
When I got the FIT, it had a $500 option pack tacked onto the price. As a matter of fact, every single car on the lot had the pack tacked on, with one or two items being different among models. Though with that pack, it was still cheaper than all other dealers in the area. Yeah, $500 for the hatch tray, rear bumper aplique, and a set of lug nuts was such an awesome deal.👎
 
One way to check, go to the manufacture website, use the "Build Your Vehicle" option. It will compensate for body style, options, even destination charges. Unfortunately, they lack selections for things like dealer mark ups & bull 🤬 charges(I think you are being too kind, Mac). :lol:

But yeah, compare what cost you come up for the car online, then what the dealer has their cars marked on their lot. Often leads to a reality check. :crazy:
 
Love the swirl they put on the steering wheel, it'll hypnotise anyone that gets near it :lol:
 
It's an STI wheel, they just wanted to cover the subaru badge.
Supposedly it's a 6spd double clutch from subaru, hopefully making its way to other models, soon.
 
Those head light kinda look the same ones on the new Impreza. I'm not complaining. It could be that those flappy paddles are for a auto 'box tiptronic?
 
The fact its right on the butt of an sti makes me interested, I certainly hope thats an indication of the performance to expect.
 
Maybe handling wise. I'm still skeptical about the car being as light as they promised and therefore not sure how that 200hp would do against an STI.
Then again, what other car would subaru use to drive around?
 
200HP in a 2500 pound car would probably do half decent against an STi on the freeway, provided the car is RWD. You can never underestimate drivetrain losses in a Subaru :p
 
That's why I said I wasn't sure about the weight. I was hearing 2400-2600, but til I see it, I won't believe it.
Though hey did also run around with a supra in a previous PIC set and that is a it slower than the sti.
Plus I would hope that since it's a MFR STI, they would ditch the street tune that the consumer cars come with in favor of one that is actually safer, more reliable, and more powerful.
 

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