Sciaru BRZFRS (BreezeFrees)

[CodeRedR51]

200 hp is not enough. Bring it with the 300 hp Impreza STi engine and I'll think about it.

200hp N/A in a ~2700lb car certainly makes it no slouch.

 

[Eric.]

Max_DC, this car isn't too much about power at the moment, that is the point. And honestly, I'd rather not deal with a turbo from Subaru till they figure out how to do it like the Germans - aka torque below 3500rpm.

On 2 liter cars they do it by only making within 10% of the power of an NA mill and matching the low end torque to the horsepower.


K20 = 200hp+, ~140tq
GTI = 200hp+, 200tq

And you end up with cars that run within a tenth of each other 0-60. Funny that.

 

[Max_DC]

Max_DC, this car isn't too much about power at the moment, that is the point. And honestly, I'd rather not deal with a turbo from Subaru till they figure out how to do it like the Germans - aka torque below 3500rpm.

I don't have a problem with a 200hp model, you know, there has to be an entrylevel somewhere, but it seems to me - and I'm saying this as a fan of japanese car manufacturing - that japanese car companies got a little stuck in the 90's regarding their sports cars.
I mean there is the R35 GT-R. The 400k $ Lexus doesn't count. So that is one sports car with state of the art performance of the year 2011.

In 1995 200 hp or 280 hp was something. A R32/33 GT-R, the STi and the Evo, the Supra - they were great performance sports cars that could take on most sports cars on this planet. Stock. And they were the perfect base for tuning. M3, Porsche 911, Corvette, any Mercedes... I mean there were some cars that were faster, for sure, but you could be sure that driving one of the cars mentioned above would guarantee that you had significantly more punch than 90% of the cars driving around.


1995 M 3 : 285 hp at 1475 kg
1995 WRX STi : 275 hp at around 1300 kg
1995 3 series with most power witout being an M : 193 hp



2011 STI : 300 hp
2011 M3 : 420 hp
2011 3 series with most power witout being an M : 306 hp


And today ? Apart from the GT-R most cars of that time are either dead ( Supra, NSX, MR2, S 2000 ) or have as much or less power ( power to weight ratio ) as 15 years ago. What is a Civic Type R today ? Chances are that you a losing a race to a Diesel Golf.

You know, at the moment I'm driving 50 miles on the Autobahn a day. My slightly tuned STi is still a great car and has enough power. But where I was the king 10 years ago I today have to fight against mums in some Audi 3.0 TDI or a 3 series 3.35. Not even talking about M3, RS4, AMG Mercedes, 911 etc. You know there is something wrong when you a driving the fastest car of a japanese car company and you are struggling with family sedans.

So I say - the next WRX should have a 300 hp 4 cyl turbo. And the STi should have a 6 cyl turbo or biturbo with at least 450 hp. And while we are at it, why not putting that engine into this car ?

As for the engine characteristics of the STi turbo. I love it. NOTHING under 3000 rpm and a punch, ah what do I say, an explosion at 3500 lasting until 7500. It might not be perfect for lap times, but it is a ton of fun and that's what it is about, isn't it ?
I once drove a Boxter S. The engine and its power development is so smooth that I was underwhelmed. Almost boring. You know, personal preference.

200hp N/A in a ~2700lb car certainly makes it no slouch.

Sure. But can you ever have too much power ? Would it hurt to have a 300 hp model as option ? Certainly not ify ou ask me....

 

[eSZee]

So all that to prove that you just don't get it?

Sure. But can you ever have too much power ? Would it hurt to have a 300 hp model as option ? Certainly not ify ou ask me....

I think the STI concept shows they are planning a more powerful version.

 

[homeforsummer]

So all that to prove that you just don't get it?

Just what I was thinking.

Sure, if you spend your whole life going in a straight line or pounding the autobahn then 200bhp might not be that much, but there's a limit to how much you need going sideways around a roundabout at 20mph.

 

[Eric.]

Just to be clear, we're talking about a roundabout on a private plot of land.

 

[homeforsummer]

Just to be clear, we're talking about a roundabout on a private plot of land.

But of course. Everyone has their own personal drifting roundabout in the UK... 💡

(And 20mph is below the speed limit...)

 

[Max_DC]

So all that to prove that you just don't get it?



I think the STI concept shows they are planning a more powerful version.

Just what I was thinking.

Sure, if you spend your whole life going in a straight line or pounding the autobahn then 200bhp might not be that much, but there's a limit to how much you need going sideways around a roundabout at 20mph.

Well I get it, it's a small coupe with great handling, maybe a successor of the hachiroku so to speak.

Still... it couldn't hurt to have a version with enough power for easy overtaking and in my case the Autobahn. I also didn't get the impression in the past that power hurt performance when exiting a corner on a touge. same goes for drifting.

The thing is, I could simply accept that the concept of this car doesn't serve my needs, but then again, there aren't many japanese sports cars to choose from these days. So I'd like some variety, and I don't see a reason not to put a 300 hp engine ( or more ? ) in that thing.

We'll see...

Personally there will be a new or a new used car in my garage in the near future, maybe next year or 2013 at the latest. And as much as I want to buy a japanese car again, high performance cars from Japan are rare these days. I once considered a used R35 GT-R but the car is not enough fun ( no manual transmission and too many electronic devices that make driving too easy ) and brakes down quite a lot ( especially the transmission ).
Anyway don't want to hijack the thread. So I'll wait until this car gets released, and maybe there is a 300 hp version planned, who knows...

 

[CodeRedR51]

So I'd like some variety, and I don't see a reason not to put a 300 hp engine ( or more ? ) in that thing.

That's what the aftermarket is for.

I once considered a used R35 GT-R but the car is not enough fun ( no manual transmission and too many electronic devices that make driving too easy ) and brakes down quite a lot ( especially the transmission ).

Not enough fun?
Breaks down a lot?

 

[Eric.]

Probably breaks down less often than his STI would if you did 20 successive 7000rpm clutch drops.

 

[Azuremen]

You know what is funny about the STi? How much power it makes versus how power it gets to the ground. 300bhp, like, 220awhp versus the USDM M3 - rated at 240bhp, getting 220whp.

The lesson is AWD sucks.


And Eric, having a broad torque band, while not much faster in a drag race at the track, certainly makes over taking and zipping around town a lot more fun.

 

[Eric.]

I've got a 4500rpm-wide torque band.

 

[eSZee]

You know what is funny about the STi? How much power it makes versus how power it gets to the ground. 300bhp, like, 220awhp versus the USDM M3 - rated at 240bhp, getting 220whp.

The lesson is AWD sucks.


And Eric, having a broad torque band, while not much faster in a drag race at the track, certainly makes over taking and zipping around town a lot more fun.

So what you're saying is the e36 is underrated from the factory(which it was) or the dyno you're using as an example was set up by a buffoon?
Oh, I think you got your wrx and sti dynos mixed up.
AWD has more drivetran loss, my mind has been blown.

 

[Azuremen]

So what you're saying is the e36 is underrated from the factory(which it was) or the dyno you're using as an example was set up by a buffoon?
Oh, I think you got your wrx and sti dynos mixed up.
AWD has more drivetran loss, my mind has been blown.

No, not really. at the idea of getting 200+ whp out of a normal WRX on a dyno.

Yes, my point is AWD drive train loss is more, by a decent amount. I really don't get why people think it is so amazing.

 

[Rykon Zero]

Well, I'll put it in the only way I know how.

If the amazing traction and stability AWD offers was a woman, I'd lick her.

I actually can't remember where I was going with that, but AWD is great if you can't drive.

 

[Azuremen]

Well, I'll put it in the only way I know how.

If the amazing traction and stability AWD offers was a woman, I'd lick her.

I actually can't remember where I was going with that, but AWD is great if you can't drive.

AWD just lets you get up to speed faster. Stability it grants is mostly a function of the electronics and fancy diffs. Plan old AWD sucks for the most part... just go out in an old Subaru and see how it feels.

AWD is great if you want a false sense of security.

 

[eSZee]

No, not really. at the idea of getting 200+ whp out of a normal WRX on a dyno.

Yes, my point is AWD drive train loss is more, by a decent amount. I really don't get why people think it is so amazing.

Yah, rly. From the 18 seconds I've been looking into wrx dynos, 215-225 is the average for a stock 3g wrx.
The e36 dyno numbers I remember from ~8 years ago were 200-210 for stock e36s and 220-230 for software/exhaust/injectors, modded cars.
The e36, and most BMWs in my opinion, are usually geared much better than anything else so the cars are faster than the numbers might show.

I'm not seeing anyone in this thread sackriding AWD like it's a godsend.
I do completely agree with the false security people feel with AWD. Most of the cars I see in a ditch every winter are 4wd/awd SUVs. But that just shows how ignorant the average person is. Oh I have awd therefore I will take this snowy on ramp at ZOMGZ mph. Vroooom, oh $!!@@@% I'm in a ditch.

 

[Rykon Zero]

Well, I really meant drivers who know how to drive, but are unskilled. There's no protection against idiots, and AWD certainly isn't that. I like AWD as a concept, but as most concepts, it's flawed. Interesting driving dynamics and annoying inefficiency basically ensure it a runner up position.

 

[Azuremen]

The G3 WRX is rated 265 crank, not the old 230hp the previous models were, thus the higher dyno numbers.

Honestly, I love passing Subaru guys in my M3 snow because I bought the thing that makes way more of a difference - snow tires.

 

[eSZee]

The G3 WRX is rated 265 crank, not the old 230hp the previous models were, thus the higher dyno numbers.

Honestly, I love passing Subaru guys in my M3 snow because I bought the thing that makes way more of a difference - snow tires.

Right, you never specified(maybe I missed it) which wrx/sti you were or were not talking about.

Winter tires are great, I just hope my generals are as good or better than the continentals before them.

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

wrong thread, disregard.. >.<

 

[Kamuifanboy]

Er.. One guy did 3-400 launches in his 800bhp GTR, so I'd say they're plenty reliable.

Wrong thread? Maybe.

 

[Azuremen]

Right, you never specified(maybe I missed it) which wrx/sti you were or were not talking about.

Winter tires are great, I just hope my generals are as good or better than the continentals before them.

Yeah, my bad on that bit. I am use to dealing with Subaru WRX Frat Bros whose entire argument is "it has AWD and a turbo, so its just awesome. AWD makes it handle better and a turbo gives it more hp/l than your M3. So it is better." And then I point out I don't have to dump the clutch to get the quoted times, get more power to the wheels, and get better economy, and it handles better. These guys are generally in the 07 or earlier models, a lot with bug-eyes.

Far too many people around here think you need AWD to get around in the winter safely, and then leave their garbage "sport" all season tires on.

Wrong thread? Maybe.

It is Leonidae; no one really pays attention to him anyhow.

 

[eSZee]

Yeah, my bad on that bit. I am use to dealing with Subaru WRX Frat Bros whose entire argument is "it has AWD and a turbo, so its just awesome. AWD makes it handle better and a turbo gives it more hp/l than your M3. So it is better." And then I point out I don't have to dump the clutch to get the quoted times, get more power to the wheels, and get better economy, and it handles better. These guys are generally in the 07 or earlier models, a lot with bug-eyes.

Far too many people around here think you need AWD to get around in the winter safely, and then leave their garbage "sport" all season tires on.



It is Leonidae; no one really pays attention to him anyhow.

The one thing that irks about the subie world is what you're describing. The idiot bros that make all other owners look bad.
As soon as the temps got into the 50s, the GF's WRX started having traction issues with cold tires, though they are summer tires so it's not surprising.

 

[Kamuifanboy]

It is Leonidae; no one really pays attention to him anyhow.

Oh, in the 2012 GTR thread there was a discussion about the durability of the clutch with launch control. So I thought he just posted in the wrong thread.

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

Indeed I did. My bad. And azure.. I love you too.

 

[Jay]

Well I assumed it was in reply to this:

I once considered a used R35 GT-R but the car is not enough fun ( no manual transmission and too many electronic devices that make driving too easy ) and brakes down quite a lot ( especially the transmission )

...

 

[boomee]

And I'm telling you the smaller looking, 2 door GTI has a better layout for space. I'm 6'4 and thus excessively aware of head room and leg room. Of course, I've also driven 6 hours with 3 guys over 6 foot in an E36 M3 coupe, and it worked, so I don't really see the point you are trying to make.

Max_DC, this car isn't too much about power at the moment, that is the point. And honestly, I'd rather not deal with a turbo from Subaru till they figure out how to do it like the Germans - aka torque below 3500rpm.

Dude whats your problem you seems to have an issue with me in this and every thread. I was just stating my expereince with the car. Im glad for you enjoy your M3 or whatever you drive to be honest this isnt the place for this argument anyways. TO be honest I love ( to drive) all cars I can drive my forester a mustang or my beater saturn in Pensylvania snow with little to no problem I apreciate all cars it doesent have to be a subaru. As it stands I think this thread has gotten way off topic. Just my opinion.

 

[Azuremen]

I was just talking about how the layout and interior on a Subaru aren't as thought out as they could be, and room is lacking for taller people.

I wasn't really going off about driving enjoyment and all that other nonsense you felt the need to bring up (in a rather confusing, punctuation free sentence) or what you perceive as me having a problem with you.

I mean, if you want me to have a problem with you, I can. Quite easily. But I'm trying to be less of an ass about things. For the most part anyhow.

Further, I fail to see how discussing the issues Subaru has had with their interior layouts is off topic, given the nature of the topic - a Subaru and Toyota compact built for a variety of people.

 

[boomee]

I was just talking about how the layout and interior on a Subaru aren't as thought out as they could be, and room is lacking for taller people.

I wasn't really going off about driving enjoyment and all that other nonsense you felt the need to bring up (in a rather confusing, punctuation free sentence) or what you perceive as me having a problem with you.

I mean, if you want me to have a problem with you, I can. Quite easily. But I'm trying to be less of an ass about things. For the most part anyhow.

Further, I fail to see how discussing the issues Subaru has had with their interior layouts is off topic, given the nature of the topic - a Subaru and Toyota compact built for a variety of people.

Wow I think this just shows as you put it how much of a ass you are. From this point on I am not interested in your banter any longer I will no longer even acknowlege you. Good luck God bless back to our regualerly schedualed program.