Sciaru BRZFRS (BreezeFrees)

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I have a feeling this car isn't going to sell that well here in the USA. The amount of people who are looking for a car of this type is very small compared to those looking for something that "goes fast"

As a result, I hope they have to sell them for well under MSRP!

 

[Cale]

You obviously haven't driven my car.




Around 60 sounds pretty standard for second gear. That was the end of second in my Del Sol and Si, as well as numerous other small cars I've driven. My RX7's second goes to 70 helping contribute to its slowness.

Kinda sucks they didn't place the shift just after 60. Most likely it actually has a sub-7-to-60 pace, but the shift tacks on a few tenths right at the end. Poorly spaced for marketing purposes, as even 0-100 kmh is 62 mph.

I think Motortrend got 0-60 in 6.4, and the 1/4 mile in 14.9 @ 95mph.

 

[homeforsummer]

Kinda sucks they didn't place the shift just after 60. Most likely it actually has a sub-7-to-60 pace, but the shift tacks on a few tenths right at the end. Poorly spaced for marketing purposes, as even 0-100 kmh is 62 mph.

Wait, you're advocating them changing it for marketing reasons, rather than keeping it as it is for driveability?

Sorry, give me an average-looking on-paper 0-60 time with the benefit of great gearing, over ruined acceleration from marketing-orientated gearing any day.

 

[dsgerbc]

.

 

[dsgerbc]

Kinda sucks they didn't place the shift just after 60.

I'm fairly certain that they did. On 93 octane.

Poorly spaced for marketing purposes, as even 0-100 kmh is 62 mph.

On the marketing basis if could actually work to underscore the point of the car in a "screw 0-60" kind of way. But like I said, I don't believe that the limiter is below 60mph. It is certainly below 100kmh though.

 

[Keef]

I think Motortrend got 0-60 in 6.4, and the 1/4 mile in 14.9 @ 95mph.

Got a link for that? A whole second to 60 and .4 in the quarter is a whopper of a difference. It does sound more appropriate but still. Somebody obviously did something wrong.

Wait, you're advocating them changing it for marketing reasons, rather than keeping it as it is for driveability?

Sorry, give me an average-looking on-paper 0-60 time with the benefit of great gearing, over ruined acceleration from marketing-orientated gearing any day.

Excuse me. It sucks for them, because better numbers sell more cars to people who aren't like you and I. But Cale brings up the point that somebody apparently messed something up with that 7.3 second test.

On the marketing basis if could actually work to underscore the point of the car in a "screw 0-60" kind of way. But like I said, I don't believe that the limiter is below 60mph. It is certainly below 100kmh though.

It would be terrible marketing to publish bad numbers and then say they don't care about the numbers. It wouldn't make a difference for purists like myself because we don't read the ads anyway, but it would be awful for regular people because they do read the ads and they expect to see favorable numbers, and they don't care about the car's true goal which is not speed but driving pleasure.

 

[Cale]

http://m.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1203_2013_subaru_brz_limited_first_test/index.html

 

[Eric.]

I think most 0-60s for my Civic were on the slow side too.

 

[Kent]

But that civic is awesome.
Likewise I know very well (because of my sti) how a just-before-60 mph shift affects peoples opinions. Just the same I know how it affects my driving- not at all.

Sure it looks bad in numbers but I believe theres a reason for it.

 

[Eric.]

Fun fact: People autocross the 09+ WRX specifically because of the taller five speed gearbox, and it ends up faster than an STI. Also lighter.

Then you've got people putting WRX brakes on an STI so they can put smaller wheels and tires on them...

 

[Zenith]

A fun fact indeed but relevant how?

 

[RocZX]

This is Manabu Orido drift car with a 2UR-GSE swap, it cool that it has a V8 swap in it but the body kit gives it a ricer look to it.

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

Drifting is show business.. Hence why a show off bodykit.

 

[Omnis]

They turned it into a Yaris.

 

[Kent]

Fun fact: People autocross the 09+ WRX specifically because of the taller five speed gearbox, and it ends up faster than an STI. Also lighter.

In deed, at the autocross.
Of course, the question that comes to my mind...
How many of those wrx autoX'ers would take an equally tuned sti of the same m.y. if given the opportunity?

Big fan of dodging cones (I am), and I am sure the BRZ will be great for autox.
One thing to stand out from the inside line video was the slalom, it looked the brz is very quick about changing direction and though a bit tail happy it looked well composed.

 

[Joey D]

I have a feeling this car isn't going to sell that well here in the USA. The amount of people who are looking for a car of this type is very small compared to those looking for something that "goes fast"

As a result, I hope they have to sell them for well under MSRP!

I don't think it'll sell well here in the US either. It makes more sense to buy a V6 Mustang for a similar price which has more power and is much quicker. A 7.3 0-60 isn't exactly fast for something that's supposed to be sporty. My Focus does it in 7.8 seconds and it's fat and not a purpose built sports car. Plus the V6 Mustang manages a .91g on the skid pad which isn't awful either.

 

[homeforsummer]

I don't think it'll sell well here in the US either. It makes more sense to buy a V6 Mustang for a similar price which has more power and is much quicker. A 7.3 0-60 isn't exactly fast for something that's supposed to be sporty. My Focus does it in 7.8 seconds and it's fat and not a purpose built sports car. Plus the V6 Mustang manages a .91g on the skid pad which isn't awful either.

Speed isn't necessarily an important aspect of sports cars (nor is outright grip). As proven by things like your Focus, or Camrys doing 0-60 in the ~6s range.

While I agree that those with a paucity of braincells might look at the Toyobaru's figures and think "well, that's not worth the money", I've not read a single review yet that's declared it anything less than brilliant to drive - which was the whole point of the car in the first place.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Yes, but it is a sports car not a focus. Not many Americans will be willing to pay the same amount of money for a car with 100hp less than the competition, no matter how brilliant it is. To Americans, speed=sports car.

 

[Kamuifanboy]

Yes, but it is a sports car not a focus. Not many Americans will be willing to pay the same amount of money for a car with 100hp less than the competition, no matter how brilliant it is. To Americans, speed=sports car.

Horsepower seems to be everything to Americans who know nothing about cars as well.

 

[squirlybmx]

Horsepower seems to be everything to Americans who know nothing about cars as well.

It's everything to a good amount of car guys as well here. Most car enthusiss here don't follow "real" racing, thus they don't build cars to handle. Most cars are either slammed, or 1/4m tuned.

 

[Zenith]

Yes, but it is a sports car not a focus. Not many Americans will be willing to pay the same amount of money for a car with 100hp less than the competition, no matter how brilliant it is. To Americans, speed=sports car.

Maybe where you live. Take a drive up any mountain road around here and you'll see plenty of MX-5's, Subaru's, and Evo's.

 

[Dan_]

I absolutely love how they've managed to focus on the subieyota's (I'm yet to adopt BreezeFrees as the unofficial nameplate ) dynamics rather than adjusting it for the sake of achieving numbers. If I were an Subie executive I would demand an adjustment in gearing since that obligatory shift to third might possibly have a negative effect on the sales, but I can't help thinking that by ignoring the marketing preconceptions, the engineers just made the car feel a bit more faithful to it's target consumers, driving enthusiasts. Hell, that's quite appealing to me.

 

[Joey D]

Speed isn't necessarily an important aspect of sports cars (nor is outright grip). As proven by things like your Focus, or Camrys doing 0-60 in the ~6s range.

While I agree that those with a paucity of braincells might look at the Toyobaru's figures and think "well, that's not worth the money", I've not read a single review yet that's declared it anything less than brilliant to drive - which was the whole point of the car in the first place.

I don't know, I look at the Scion FR-S and I don't really see anything that would make me look at it and go "ya, that's worth $24,000". Like I said a V6 Mustang is more car for the same amount of money or less, depending on rebates. I'm guessing a Camaro would be the same way, I just really don't know the ins and outs of it's performance.

Then there's the Miata, it does 0-60 in 6.7 sec with less horsepower and a skid pad number between .91-.95 depending on where you look. The Miata is also already proven to work. Even though I can't stand the Miata's at all, it would still make more financial sense to buy one of those if you are looking purely for a Japanese sports car despite being down two seats.

The Scion just doesn't have the numbers on paper to really make people who buy new cars in the US overly interested. It looks like they aren't sending a whole lot here so they probably will sell out for the year, but their target market is people who, for the most part, do not buy new cars. Young, sports car enthusiast seem to buy older cars which are easier to work on, have a larger aftermarket and are significantly cheaper.

Just looking quickly in my area $23,000 would buy me a 911, an STI, an EVO, a NSX, or a whole bunch of BMW's with M badges. If you are a sports car enthusiast I'm willing to bet that you'd spend that money on something used and much better. Or you could just buy an old Miata and turn it into quite the race car.

 

[Kent]

Speed isn't necessarily an important aspect of sports cars (nor is outright grip). As proven by things like your Focus, or Camrys doing 0-60 in the ~6s range.

While I agree that those with a paucity of braincells might look at the Toyobaru's figures and think "well, that's not worth the money", I've not read a single review yet that's declared it anything less than brilliant to drive - which was the whole point of the car in the first place.

I agree.
However, (and I know this is asking for flames) I do not think the average mustang V6 buyer cares about the driving dynamic nearly as much as the type to buy a BRZ.

For example... (A 2 minute search of cars.com had so many results I had a hard time picking).

http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=80689505&listingRecNum=4&criteria=prMx%3D45000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26mkId%3D20071%26stkTyp%3DU%26rd%3D100000%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-pseudoPrice%26zc%3D70448%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D1-0-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26rpp%3D50%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1

and

http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=79754016&listingRecNum=8&criteria=prMx%3D100000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26mkId%3D20012%26stkTyp%3DU%26rd%3D250%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-pseudoPrice%26zc%3D70448%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D1-0-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26rpp%3D50%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1

Both between 40 and 45k... Both RWD, 2 door cars... Imho comparing those cars is similar to comparing the mustang v6 and the Brz.

 

[Joey D]

I agree.
However, (and I know this is asking for flames) I do not think the average mustang V6 buyer cares about the driving dynamic nearly as much as the type to buy a BRZ.

Depends on the demographics. The old guy buying one to relive his youth or the daddy's girl getting one for her 16th birthday, ya I couldn't really see them caring to much about driving dynamics. A young, male who likes sporty cars? They are more than likely to care, and that's the target group with the Scion.

 

[RACECAR]

If memory serves me right, wasn't their a similar Sports car and it too sold crap loads?

 

[Kent]

Depends on the demographics. The old guy buying one to relive his youth or the daddy's girl getting one for her 16th birthday, ya I couldn't really see them caring to much about driving dynamics. A young, male who likes sporty cars? They are more than likely to care, and that's the target group with the Scion.

Seems kinda like you're making my point for me.
More over, a "young" male who likes sporty cars and goes out to buy a brand-new v6 mustang isn't all that different from the others.
If I was willing to spend 25k on a mustang purely for a "sporty" car, I certainly wouldn't buy a 2013 v6. I mean... Is it really a stretch for you to see a sports car oriented young man would probably go buy an 8cyl. mustang from 2 years earlier?

I just don't see enthusiasts around the world saying...
Man I need a car at 25k and Im equally considering a Brz and a Mustang v6.

Again, I'd say it's more like...
I'm going to get a mustang or (insert another american muscle car)
or
I'm going to get a Brz or a genesis coupe.

Makes me wonder just how much grease the boys at hyundai put on the wheels to ensure the words genesis coupe don't come up too often when the BRZ is up for discussion.

Of course to be fair...
There is bound to be a size-able population of buyers who will 'equally' consider the Brz and Mustang.

In a way, it's exciting to see two cars that are so different being compared.

 

[Joey D]

Seems kinda like you're making my point for me.
More over, a "young" male who likes sporty cars and goes out to buy a brand-new v6 mustang isn't all that different from the others. In fact, I'd say that's pretty far from the type of person I believe would notice driving dynamics in general.

Fact of the matter is... If I was the type willing to spend 25k on a mustang purely for a "sporty" car, I certainly wouldn't buy a 2013 v6. I mean... Is it really a stretch for you to see a sports car oriented young man would probably go buy an 8cyl. mustang from 2 years earlier?

My first point was that if you're a young sports car enthusiast in America and want to buy a brand new, sporty car, it would make more sense to buy a V6 Mustang over the Scion in the US. The Mustang would offer more power (by about a 100hp more), quicker 0-60, and similar handling ability. The Genesis Coupe is another option too since it offers similar to better performance than the Mustang, however it's more expensive.

My second point was, most sport cars enthusiast who are young typically don't buy new cars, so it's a limited market Scion is trying to cater to since they are a brand solely devoted to young people. I don't really see where this Scion fits in at all in that limited market since there are better options out there.

I fail to see how buying a V6 Mustang makes you not care about driving dynamics. Sure you could buy a couple year old Mustang GT, but that's looking at used cars which has no bearing on my example with new cars. It's not a stretch for me at all to see why someone would rather get a used GT over a V6, but like I said it doesn't fit within my example.

So to sum it up: If you are young enthusiast and want something new, sporty and RWD for $23,000 there are better options than the Scion. However, since most young enthusiast want something used, sport and RWD for less money the market for the FR-S is limited. Withing that limited market I believe it will have a hard time going up against better cars.

I just don't see enthusiasts around the world saying...
Man I need a car at 25k and Im equally considering a Brz and a Mustang v6.

I haven't said anything about the rest of the world, my point is strictly for America. I don't know enough about what's offered elsewhere.

Again, I'd say it's more like...
I'm going to get a mustang or (insert another other american muscle car)
or
I'm going to get a Brz or a genesis coupe.

If you were a smart car buyer looking for something new, sporty, RWD and around $23,000 I don't see why you wouldn't consider the Mustang, Genesis, FR-S and a Miata. The Mustang is more of a sports car now than it used to be, it's no longer there for quarter miles. If you drove all 4 vehicles I would wager that you'd end up not buying the FR-S in favour of something different barring you aren't a huge Toyota fanboy.

 

[dsgerbc]

Maybe where you live. Take a drive up any mountain road around here and you'll see plenty of MX-5's, Subaru's, and Evo's.

Cali doesn't count, lol.

Then there's the Miata, it does 0-60 in 6.7 sec with less horsepower and a skid pad number between .91-.95 depending on where you look.

If you compare by testing outlet, not randomly mix-n-matching numbers, mazda will be a hair slower than BRZ. Skidpad should be compared on the same tires, or at least for the same performance category. I seem to remember some trim of the current MX5 pushing 1g with some Advans, lol.

Just looking quickly in my area $23,000 would buy me a 911, an STI, an EVO, a NSX, or a whole bunch of BMW's with M badges. If you are a sports car enthusiast I'm willing to bet that you'd spend that money on something used and much better. Or you could just buy an old Miata and turn it into quite the race car.

I'm looking for a fun DD. None of those make good DD. BRZ is gonna have more power/weight then my current turbo-charged awd sporty sedan. It will lack off-the-trafficlight acceleration, but I only use power on the street while doing some highway merging/lane changes and some occasional overtaking on 2-lane county roads.
Oh, and I tried Mustangs, various trims. They all have interior I don't want to spend my commute in. GT sounds nice, I'll give Mustang that.

 

[Kent]

You definitely got the pre-edit version... My post was in haste but the raw form serves just as well...

My point isn't to say the BRZ is better than the Mustang.
I'd don't know much about either car.

My point is that the character (for lack of a better term) of each vehicle is so different than I don't think of the two being considered equally amongst buyers.
Almost everyone I've ever known who owned a mustang was the type to focus on certain types of cars (rarely showing major interest in small displacement imports).