Searching for Sophy

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Footix

Footix

63
Poland
Poland
Big hype before GT7 launch, lots of buzz in trailers, interviews etc. Now we have post-launch silence, despite two big companies involved into this project (Sony and Polyphony). Kinda suspicious for me... Project timeline on official page ends on Feb'22.

Did the team realized that it's unable to create reliable working version of new-gen AI bot? I remember conclusions from last video about testing solution by GT Academy drivers in series of events, that Sophy works fine only in "lab" conditions (track and car that AI has mastered already).
 
Sophy will not be deployed until after feature parity with the PS4 version is broken; you simply can't run an actual neural-network AI on PS4 hardware, let alone 15 of them.
 
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incredirog
pretty sure it’s all been crammed into that maggiore enduro mission which is why it’s so bad in every other event/race/mission
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LOL not like the AI are actually good at driving in that race either, just slightly less slow than normal.
 
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AutumnalGlow
I don't think they ever promised it would be part of GT7, so it shouldn't be expected at all.
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screenshot-2022-02-28-at-16-22-33-gran-turismo-sophy-race-together-media-event-english-y-png.1118441
 
Footix
Are you guys denials or what?:confused: It was clearly confirmed by Kaz that Sophy will be coming to GT7 in future update. You can find bunch of news on gtplanet on this as well.

One from many: Gran Turismo 7’s “Sophy” Artificial Intelligence Driving System Revealed
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Looks like you just wrapped up your own thread by answering your own question. :lol: 'Coming in a future update' Doesn't specify a specific date, let alone confirm it would be any of these near-term updates. For all we know it could be a year or more before it comes.
 
@Canucks_9419, I didn't state question "when implementation", rather "why strange silence after commercial success".

Don't judge me wrong, I have big respect for Mr. Kazunori Yamauchi and PD team for what they have done for car enthusiasts all around the globe, but they made promises that convinced me to buy the game and now I'm asking "where candies?".
 
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I've noticed some oddly human behavior among the bots, particularly with V. Gallo at Tokyo Expressway WTC600. I've been giving him fits after being frustrated with trying to win reliably, and smoking the field in the Tomahawk, pretending he's Blofeld and derailing his car in "occasionally" brutal fashion. He now fights to get away from me, and in a pit run yesterday with my Murcielago he rammed me good from behind - and I flew in at nearly full speed! Sent me into the wall with a penalty, the bastion...

I was also flirting with Kokubun, pulling alongside on the final lap towards the finish line. I let "her" get a bit ahead, and she slowed to match pace with me. And let Suswillo shoot past us both to take second. That was an odd thing, as competitive as these bots are. So even without Sophy, I suspect there's a little more of something going on under the code hood. Not to mention the bots in later events are pretty darn fast.
 
Tenacious D
So even without Sophy, I suspect there's a little more of something going on under the code hood. Not to mention the bots in later events are pretty darn fast.
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IMO is a question of horsepower, just more juice under the hood. They are very slow on corners and traffic but just pull away on acceleration at corner exit at incredible speed. Even if we do a slow in - fast out, we can't keep up with them on exit, they gain a 5-10 car lengths in a whisker. But the lines, the corner speed, the dealing with the traffic, the tire management are just terrible as always.
 
Not only is there no real estimation that Sophy will even be in GT7 (and if it is, it certainly won't be in the PS4 version considering what was needed to even run it in the initial tests when trialed on GT Sport, and considering Polyphony knowingly made a game cross-gen to capitalize on a large install base that isn't able to upgrade, they aren't going to piss off that side in any way by offering something that can't be used in one version) but what proof is there in Sophy even being used as a replacement for the AI other then the 'as a friend in races' line in the image posted up thread, which can mean so many different things (and knowing Kaz's proclivities, is likely to be some roundabout way instead of the direct one) or that Sophy will somehow be any better then what we have now, when other racing games have competitive and interesting AI that doesn't require what amounts to a sledgehammer breaking open a chestnut?

That's what gets me is that people are putting so much hope into Sophy that they seem to forget that one can make an AI system very easily, by human hand, and that the amount of money that Sony/Polyphony are throwing at this to make it seem like the silver bullet to fix the AI issues plaguing this series for a decade plus now is somehow more preferable then hiring some actual AI programmers and reworking the AI manually, and changing the actual structure of the racing to not make it focused around chasing the rabbit.
 
Silver Arrows
Not only is there no real estimation that Sophy will even be in GT7 (and if it is, it certainly won't be in the PS4 version considering what was needed to even run it in the initial tests when trialed on GT Sport, and considering Polyphony knowingly made a game cross-gen to capitalize on a large install base that isn't able to upgrade, they aren't going to piss off that side in any way by offering something that can't be used in one version) but what proof is there in Sophy even being used as a replacement for the AI other then the 'as a friend in races' line in the image posted up thread, which can mean so many different things (and knowing Kaz's proclivities, is likely to be some roundabout way instead of the direct one) or that Sophy will somehow be any better then what we have now, when other racing games have competitive and interesting AI that doesn't require what amounts to a sledgehammer breaking open a chestnut?

That's what gets me is that people are putting so much hope into Sophy that they seem to forget that one can make an AI system very easily, by human hand, and that the amount of money that Sony/Polyphony are throwing at this to make it seem like the silver bullet to fix the AI issues plaguing this series for a decade plus now is somehow more preferable then hiring some actual AI programmers and reworking the AI manually, and changing the actual structure of the racing to not make it focused around chasing the rabbit.
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Indeed. PD have made no effort to improve the AI themselves for nearly 20 years. It's the same one person credited for AI in every game since GT4, IIRC. One person, who with all due respect clearly doesn't have the skills required. That's how much they care. They just let him do what be can, game after game.

It took them until after the awful sounding GT6 to fix that area of the game, they are not quick at making required changes/hire new people to fix their shortcomings.
 
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Samus
It took them until after the awful sounding GT6 to fix that area of the game, they are not quick at making required changes/hire new people to fix their shortcomings.
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That, or Kaz straight up lies to continue the charade.

Straight from the horses' mouth:

GTP: The artificial intelligence of the other drivers, will that see any changes or improvements in GT6?

KY: “Like the sounds, that is something that we’re rebuilding for GT6. It won’t be the same as GT5.
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Much rebuilding. Much differences. Wow. Almost a decade later, and we're still waiting for that rebuilding. But we gotta make sure to nickel and dime people in order to pump up play time and get profit from micro-transactions, and not even remove them when things finally hit a boiling point!
 
meekrab
Sophy will not be deployed until after feature parity with the PS4 version is broken; you simply can't run an actual neural-network AI on PS4 hardware, let alone 15 of them.
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This is false for two reasons, firstly, there's no reason for Sophy to still be learning at the point it is integrated into GT7 and secondly once you remove the requirement for it to continue simulating different scenarios, it would not be particularly taxing for a computer to handle.

With regards to it learning beyond implementation, this can be done outside of the user experience and the Sophy can be updated to include anything new it has learned.

Aside from the above, it is also worth pointing out that the original Forza Mororsport had machine learning AI all the way back on the original Xbox. In fact, as far as I'm aware, the only thing the PS4 would struggle with (which the PS5 would also struggle with) is the simultaneous simulation of multiple scenarios in the background to speed up the AI's learning.
 
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Dave A
This is false for two reasons, firstly, there's no reason for Sophy to still be learning at the point it is integrated into GT7 and secondly once you remove the requirement for it to continue simulating different scenarios, it would not be particularly taxing for a computer to handle.

With regards to it learning belong implementation, this can be done outside of the user experience and the Sophy can be updated to include anything new it has learned.

Aside from the above, it is also worth pointing out that the original Forza Mororaport had machine learning AI all the way back on the original Xbox. In fact, as far as I'm aware, the only thing the PS4 would struggle with (which the PS5 would also struggle with) is the simulatnaious simulation of multiple scenarios in the background to speed up the AI's learning.
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So you actually think this "sophy" is coming to GT7? Eh boy. Please don't hold your breath.
 
No idea how it works but I imagine changes to the physics engine would require the AI to relearn a lot. Even if it were "ready" they probably couldn't release it until they get all aspects of the driving model locked in.
 
hallmania625
No idea how it works but I imagine changes to the physics engine would require the AI to relearn a lot. Even if it were "ready" they probably couldn't release it until they get all aspects of the driving model locked in.
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The AI dont run on the same physics system as we use, it'd be far too taxing on the hardware for no benefit.

This is true for pretty much every racing game with AI.
 
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Sophy was solds to us as a "future update" .... which could be tomorrow, or it could be in 5 years, just before they turn the servers off.

I'm 99% sure that Sony / PD released the info on Sophy when they did as a early as a form of damage control. They know the AI in release was bad but now people talk about this instead of just straight up complaining...
 

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