Self-control, or a lack thereof.

[onearmbandit]

I read a lot on here about how 'a-spec is ruined' because you can enter a car that is overpowered and decimate the competition, making the game far too easy. Well here's how I view it.

Notice how there is no difficulty option? You can't adjust the difficulty of the AI drivers etc. What you can adjust however is the vehicle you choose to enter, the state of tune, the tires (notice how in a-spec tires are open, b-spec not so). So if you lack self-control and enter a car way over classed, then yes of course you will win. And by some distance. But who's cheating who here? Why not show some self-control and enter a car that is similarly powered? Or for a challenge of your driving ability, a car that is underpowered?

Getting difficulty levels right for game producers must be a nightmare. There will always be those that say it's too difficult, those that like it, and those that say it's too easy. Out of three camps, you'll only ever please one. But what I think PD have done here is set the level of the AI for the individual race and then allowed us to decide just how difficult the race will be.

A bonus to this is that by simply increasing the power of your car, you are not automatically making it easier for yourself, as leading by 30sec will make you lazy, leading to stupid crashes, and also bore you. So this encourages you to learn to drive the cars better with less power, actually improving your driving technique rather than relying on an out and out power advantage.

Or I could just be waffling. Or I could have missed this from a thread a month ago. But whatever, it works for me.

(Oh, and by 'driving ability' and 'technique', I'm obviously just referring to 'in-game'.)

 

[JJ72]

I'll much rather they restrict us with matching cars and provide a difficulty setting, because there are almost an unlimited variations in car performance and finding one that matches the competition exactly while accounting your personal skill is frankly, very hard. It's also requires repetition and you get the same reward anyways.

it'd be much better if they allow a small degree of freedom in tuning, have an AI difficulty setting, or bring back the A-spec point system so the experimentation is rewarding, just either one of the three will be much better.

 

[Hoplocephalud]

Good post mate.

It is hard to get the tune just right though. Quite often I just overshot the mark and won by over five seconds.

 

[ItsHim]

You demand a level of maturity hardly expressed by many voicing an opinion here on GTP.

I'm under the impression GT5 must serve as an ego enhancing device first and that bragging is the second major function.

Shame PD thought the players would be intelligent enough to make something of the game themselves. Maybe people are just too accustomed to taking shortcuts they forgot how to challenge themselves.

 

[onearmbandit]

I'll much rather they restrict us with matching cars and provide a difficulty setting, because there are almost an unlimited variations in car performance and finding one that matches the competition exactly while accounting your personal skill is frankly, very hard. It's also requires repetition and you get the same reward anyways.

it'd be much better if they allow a small degree of freedom in tuning, have an AI difficulty setting, or bring back the A-spec point system so the experimentation is rewarding, just either one of the three will be much better.

You can view your possible competition before the race (as I'm sure you are well aware), it tells you the type of car, power and weight. The only thing you don't really know that is important is tires. So if your facing Japanese performance cars (like GTR's, RX7's, NSX's, etc) that are putting out 286hp and weighing in at 1500kg, you'll know they are pretty standard. If they are however weighing in at 1200kg and putting out 480hp you know they've been tuned. You tune accordingly.

 

[Fusion]

IMO, there should at least be tyre restrictions like in B-spec. Everything else is debatable but tyre restrictions make sense for what type of cars you happen to be racing.

 

[Nielsen]

No matter how I look at it I always end up thinking how hard would it be to make the entry requirements a bit more restrictive? It's just weird.

The only thing I see which can encourage people to enter with a less powerfull car is to save the money you'd spend on tuning parts for a car you probably never will use again. But then we have the ridiculous rewards for Seasonal Events which make our budget less of a problem.

 

[onearmbandit]

You demand a level of maturity hardly expressed by many voicing an opinion here on GTP.

I'm under the impression GT5 must serve as an ego enhancing device first and that bragging is the second major function.

Shame PD thought the players would be intelligent enough to make something of the game themselves. Maybe people are just too accustomed to taking shortcuts they forgot how to challenge themselves.

Yeah I can't understand it myself, they give us free reign to tune our cars how we want, maybe leave them standard, maybe spec them up, maybe choose are car that's got a battle on it's hands, but it seems some people just tune to the max because they can and then complain because PD made it too easy!!

And now I see it's carried over to the 3rd seasonal event. What they have done people, in my opinion, is made the game accessible for everyone, made the rewards attainable no matter how good of a driver you are, so everyone can experience that rare car that's going to cost them 20,000,000 credits. It's up to you how easy you make that experience.

 

[onearmbandit]

IMO, there should at least be tyre restrictions like in B-spec. Everything else is debatable but tyre restrictions make sense for what type of cars you happen to be racing.

Initially I agreed with you on this, but once again it means that those people that maybe don't have the skills, or the time to develop them can win decent credits so they too can get those expensive cars. Otherwise the appeal of the game would wear off for them very quickly.

In b-spec tires matter, because it's not you driving, rather just giving vague instructions.

 

[onearmbandit]

The only thing I see which can encourage people to enter with a less powerfull car is to save the money you'd spend on tuning parts for a car you probably never will use again. But then we have the ridiculous rewards for Seasonal Events which make our budget less of a problem.

The only encouragement you should need is the satisfaction of a hard fought battle that you sweated over to win.

 

[JJ72]

You can view your possible competition before the race (as I'm sure you are well aware), it tells you the type of car, power and weight. The only thing you don't really know that is important is tires. So if your facing Japanese performance cars (like GTR's, RX7's, NSX's, etc) that are putting out 286hp and weighing in at 1500kg, you'll know they are pretty standard. If they are however weighing in at 1200kg and putting out 480hp you know they've been tuned. You tune accordingly.

That's not enough information still, because the AI is quicker around some track and slower around others, and their strength differs from race to race.

Case in point, in the first endurance there's a pack of skylines, EVOs and Subbies, what should I bring to the fight? I tried a 300ZX (fat heavy car) and was too fast, tried a S15 and was still to fast, in the end I have to use a Integra type R for it to be semi close.

It's practically impossible to tune accordingly until you have actually driven the race and compare your overall time, with the same competition, I had a much harder time at the tsubaka race, there are too many hidden variants which make precise judging very hard, which is not helped by a limitless choice.

 

[Nielsen]

The only encouragement you should need is the satisfaction of a hard fought battle that you sweated over to win.

Ultimately yes. However, PD could easily have set a difficulty level for everyone who plays GT5 must share. I think it would feel more rewarding to beat a challenge given by the game rather than one you gave yourself just to get the most out of an unpolished difficulty level.

 

[Khoin]

I don't mind being able to enter with a way too powerful car and easily beating every race.

What I do mind, is that if I take a car I like and want to find a competitive race for it, there's often very little choice, if any. Also, actually finding a car that's just right for a race can be very difficult. And often 1 of the AI cars is way faster than the rest, which means you're racing only one opponent effectively.

I'm not saying it's impossible to have good, challenging races, but it could (should?) be much easier to do so.

Way more Aspec races, custom races with rewards, etc. There are so many simple ways they could vastly improve this.

I do agree that you can make any race hard though, simply by choosing lesser equipment, so complaining it's "too easy" is indeed a bit silly

 

[JJ72]

Initially I agreed with you on this, but once again it means that those people that maybe don't have the skills, or the time to develop them can win decent credits so they too can get those expensive cars. Otherwise the appeal of the game would wear off for them very quickly.

You have to be pretty bad to not be able to beat the first three tier of races, I think most gamers are better than that.

If we are talking about people who can't drive straight or stay on the track they probably wouldn't enjoy driving the cars they earn either? And there's always B-spec for earning money.

When you disconnect difficulty and reward, the casual people will just blow through it, which brings us to the original point of the post - self control. On one hand you try to encourage people to challenge themselves, on another hand you are afraid the game system will make it too hard - it creates an dilemma.

 

[W3H5]

I read a lot on here about how 'a-spec is ruined' because you can enter a car that is overpowered and decimate the competition, making the game far too easy. Well here's how I view it.

Notice how there is no difficulty option? You can't adjust the difficulty of the AI drivers etc. What you can adjust however is the vehicle you choose to enter, the state of tune, the tires (notice how in a-spec tires are open, b-spec not so). So if you lack self-control and enter a car way over classed, then yes of course you will win. And by some distance. But who's cheating who here? Why not show some self-control and enter a car that is similarly powered? Or for a challenge of your driving ability, a car that is underpowered?

I've said the same in every post I've read about GT5 being to easy. I totally agree with what you're saying and think if you want to challenge yourself you can. It's not the game which is too simple, it's the minds and imaginations of some people who say the game is that way.

 

[onearmbandit]

When you disconnect difficulty and reward, the casual people will just blow through it, which brings us to the original point of the post - self control. On one hand you try to encourage people to challenge themselves, on another hand you are afraid the game system will make it too hard - it creates an dilemma.

But shouldn't that be up to the individual gamer? In most racing games there are degrees of difficulty, anyone could just lower the AI's ability to learner/beginner and blow through as well. However, instead of just having 3 or 4 levels, it's been left up to us in an almost infinite manner. How could that be worse?

 

[onearmbandit]

I understand what some are saying about how the AI perform differently at certain races/tracks. Why that is I don't know. It doesn't help any aspect of the game. Whether that is deliberate or not I don't know...

 

[BigYoSpeck]

I'm sure a great many are happy to exercise self control, but where are the goal posts?

If I enter an event in a bone stock car and can see the pack blitzing away from me, then I know the car needs upgrades, at this point I've wasted about 5 minutes fannying about going through menu screens and load times. So I pop to the tuning options, but where do I draw the line? I can add a few upgrades, try again, waste another 5 minutes on loading screens and then find out it's still not enough or maybe too much.

The whole idea of a game is that the creator lays out a set of fair rules and boundaries so that you can enjoy trying to master their challenges under those conditions. A-Spec doesn't have this.

This is what made the Seasonal Events quite fun, because some of them at least were finely balanced to beat. The GTR event for example, you needed everything other than engine mods and a well sorted chassis to win it. You couldn't have a go, find it a bit difficult then bolt on a turbo and lay waste to the AI. You had to tinker with the cars setup, and drive well to beat it. Challenge, reward, satisfaction.

 

[W3H5]

Casual gamers are free to 'blow' through GT5 and not realise the possibility for endless enjoyable competition/racing year through year. I'd imagine most GT vets/hardcore will go for the option of taking on a high power/low weight race car with one slightly under classed just for the thrill of the race and the uncertainty of "Oh, no, I've come second but good God did I race my nads off and will push that tad harder next time to win."

 

[JJ72]

But shouldn't that be up to the individual gamer? In most racing games there are degrees of difficulty, anyone could just lower the AI's ability to learner/beginner and blow through as well. However, instead of just having 3 or 4 levels, it's been left up to us in an almost infinite manner. How could that be worse?

because too many choices are bad? It's simple super market psychology, too many choice creates confusion, choices are best limited to a few.

I haven't play much racing games lately but only Forza 3, where the difficulty level directly affects the amount of rewards, which to me is a pretty sensible system. Since the best way to progress is to try your best.

I think games should reward skill, and not just time invested, the current system simply rewards work disregarding skill level.

 

[onearmbandit]

How many of you here have played, in this instance, a racing game before where even on the most difficult setting you can win easily? I know I have. In GT5 though, I can make this happen less often. Sure it can be a bit hit and miss, but it's better (in my opinion) than only 3 or 4 choices.

Some may not be able to handle the myriad of choices available to them, some may not be able to resist maxing everything out and blowing through. But I'd rather that than 'Professional' level AI that I can beat in every race.

 

[DrSibo]

Have started the Professional tier of A-Spec and so far have used cars at stock level to begin with, then adding some aids if necessary, and then tuning if any further improvements are required depending on the car and circuit (like better acceleration or longer gearing for example)...

Why? I like a bit of a challenge whilst racing and it is satisfying if you manage to win with a car at stock level or when you've found a simple tweak/tune to win.

The best example of this so far is the Ferrari 512BB i used in the classic supercars... took me a little while to conquer the oversteer, especially on the Suzuka circuit and in the end I only upgraded the tyres and used SRF and TCS on 2.

I have also used this tactic for the seasonal events... see how well I can do it with a stock motor then work out the necessary tuning and set the car up to my liking... the GTR event was the most fun to Gold so far

 

[Nielsen]

Why are we talking about difficulty levels? What GT5 needed was just a few more restrictions for each event. Some events require that your car is from a specific country but it doesn't require anything about the setup. It really makes me wonder what the point is besides driving a diverse collection of cars to earn money and experience. I just cannot defend the theory that PD did this to let players decide their own difficulty. I'd say that the events were added and decided very late in the development of GT5 and PD didn't have the time to test and add some meaningful restrictions for each specific event. Instead they just made it very simple.

 

[hyyperactive]

Shame PD thought the players would be intelligent enough to make something of the game themselves. Maybe people are just too accustomed to taking shortcuts they forgot how to challenge themselves.

Imho it is a shame that pd wasn't "intelligent" enough to provide proper challenging game.

 

[Luminis]

You might call it self-control, others will call it tying an arm to your back.
Anyways, what ruins A-Spec more than the difficulty issue is, in my opinion, the fact that running a specific car on a specific track against a challenging field of cars is quite hard.

For example:
If I want to race my S15RM on the Nordschleife, which event should I run if wanted to maintain a somewhat decent payout?

The lack of a 'forced' difficulty level isn't the biggest problem, in my opinion.

 

[ghostrider135]

There's nothing wrong with using an over powered car in A-spec let me explain , The challenge of trying to lap the AI , Being able to use _______ Car in a semi competitive environment and test out how it feels and if you can fettle it further for when you take it online where the competition is much tougher, So think of it as machine testing while being paid

 

[ScouserInExile]

I read a lot on here about how 'a-spec is ruined' because you can enter a car that is overpowered and decimate the competition, making the game far too easy. Well here's how I view it.

This has been a critisism of the series since GT3 - you have to "chase" a decent race. In that, a lot of the time, an untuned car will be left well behind and fully tuning will destroy the opposition. So it's quite hard to find that point where you are just competitive with the opposition.

I can't remember which one it was, but one of the PS1 itterations had HP limits for the bulk of it's events. These kind of restrictions would solve this problem. in fact, the tuning then becomes a vital aspect of the game - you would need to get as close to the limit as possible, then tune the car properly to be competitive, rather than maxxed-out with no changed settings.

The problem is, however, the basic structure of games is "complete x, get y" and it's the desire to get y that keeps people playing. Making it too hard to complete x will mean a lot of people won't play the game for any length of time and then won't buy the next series (or the game will get poor reviews and no-one will buy it in the first place).

PD seem to have taken the descision to say "if you want to blast through the game, go ahead. If you want a challenge, delve a bit deeper...

 

[Nielsen]

So think of it as machine testing while being paid

How comforting.

 

[TravisTejas]

I usually try to match the HP of the competition, but there's always one car that seems to be driven by the stig, a lot of my races are 1 on 1 and it does kinda suck. I'm doing the Truck series now and my F150 is a failboat right now, so slow and no acceleration so I'll be tuning it after I matched the HP levels.

 

[JackC8]

Getting difficulty levels right for game producers must be a nightmare.

Only for Polyphony Digital apparently. All the other racing games I've played seem to have no problem with it at all. Maybe if they hadn't wasted so much time giving us hundreds of utterly mundane grocery-getters, they could have put more effort into the AI and added scalable difficulty, etc. Like everybody else does.