Senna Tribute turned into a mockery

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Wide Boy

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So it seems many of us are faster than one of the best racing drivers their has ever been!!!

Either the car, track, tyre model or a combination of all 3 are wrong or you should quit your day job & go take up motorsport for a living.

Some will argue you can push a bit harder as there's no chance of injury if you muck it up but that doesn't really cut it. It just means you can find the limits quicker.

I don't think that really enters into a racing drivers makeup anyway & certainly not from that time period.
Tracks with a wall on corner exit they don't play it safe normally, rather they keep pushing till they are exiting within a few feet of it.
They wont do it every lap but if they need to they will take it to the edge knowing the consequences if they get it fractionally wrong.
On occasions they will say that was dangerous etc but they don't generally back off if they are good.

Sorry Senna you had your day but you were nothing special we can do better is what this Tribute says to me.
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Old school Monza is way better than the track we had though so that's a bonus
 
What it is is the fact that Gran Turismo, while brandishing itself as a simulator, is not quite that. Being a mere virtual representation of the real life cars and tracks, they cannot get everything correct. Also, these challenges are done on racing soft tires if I'm not mistaken, which have a much higher grip level than any real life tires. That, combined with Gran Turismo just being a game, is what makes these challenges thousands of times easier than they would be in real life.
 
I knew this idea would pop up quickly. This is a simulation of reality. It's not reality. Given how challenging it actually is to beat his times when we have perfect physics, with perfect unchanging cars, flawless transmissions, with imaginary oil, imaginary rubber, polygonal surfaces, etc, I'm very impressed by his real-life times. GT6 is a decent simulation, but it's not anything close to the real world. The number of times I would have died if it were real! :eek:
 
As already said, Gran Turismo isn't really that much of a real life racing simulator. I beat Senna's time's by like 4 seconds at Monza, does that mean I have the talent to become a world class professional, absolutely not.
 
I was watching one of the recent F1 GPs and during an interview with someone (I think it was Riccardo) he said it was an accepted fact that all drivers were about 1-1.5secs a lap faster on their simulators than in real life because of the lack of consequence of a crash.

Having said that, this arcade game, is far from a proper simulator ;-)
 
Chris123
As already said, Gran Turismo isn't really that much of a real life racing simulator. I beat Senna's time's by like 4 seconds at Monza, does that mean I have the talent to become a world class professional, absolutely not.
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Doh! And here's me thinking I'm the next F1 legend and all! I am crushed..... (sniff) :-)

I beat the time by over a second on my third lap and I have never driven that track before.

Seriously now, I did have a lot of trouble at Brands Hatch and kept being 2/10s off the time. I think it was because I kept driving the track like it was the modern version and kept slowing up too much for the first few corners.

So to all the F1 teams reading this you can PM me here ;-)
 
Almost all sims seem to be a little on the fast side regarding lap times. I don't think it's just "fear". I mean really, if you spend your life in a race car you are going to get over it.

In GT6 we are using RS tires that have crazy levels of grip, also in GT6 EVERY car has way too short a stopping distance (ABS on or OFF).

When you think about we are "only" say 7 seconds to fast. If the scan of the track was a little off, if the grip levels are too much ( what was the track temperature when Senna did his lap?), aero package overdone, it will all add up and make for a messed up lap time.
 
You are missing the point.
The time would have been set on qualifiers & the build (car, tyre, track combo) should have made it so achieving that time was nigh on impossible.
Gold would then have been set below Senna's time because us mere mortals cant achieve it.
Maybe can you beat Senna's fastest racing lap using qualifiers (softs) & get close to his qualifying time.
Would that not have been more realistic?
 
I remember a Top Gear segment about 5 or 6 years ago when Jeremy tried to beat his time from Gran Turismo to the real Laguna Seca. He couldn't come close to his Gran Turismo time. A virtual player will always beat the real world time- in a game you can always press the reset button if you crash- in the real world you'd be 6 feet under.
 
Wide Boy
You are missing the point.
The time would have been set on qualifiers & the build (car, tyre, track combo) should have made it so achieving that time was nigh on impossible.
Gold would then have been set below Senna's time because us mere mortals cant achieve it.
Maybe can you beat Senna's fastest racing lap using qualifiers (softs) & get close to his qualifying time.
Would that not have been more realistic?
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Like I said Racing Soft tires = to much grip, even for simulating sticky F1 tires. I would bet they at least 3 seconds too fast alone.

If they made it really hard, the fast GT6 players would still best his time and then they would believe they are as good as him. Or they could make it impossible ( put the car on Comfort Hard tires ) and EVERYONE would complain.

By doing it this way, nobody but a fool would think that time, is an accurate measurement of Senna's pace relative to theirs.
 
Dhalism
even in iracing williams is like 4 seconds faster in qualifying alone than the real thing.
Either way its a tribute not a contest. What are you thinking. Youre just being disrespectful.
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Actually I thought they were.
According to you
even in iracing williams is like 4 seconds faster in qualifying alone than the real thing
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That means if I am 2 seconds faster I am nearly as quick as their current drivers.
I most definitely am not so its not a sim & yes its just a game.
 
The way I see, it isn't only the lack of fear, there are various factors behind it.

Lets say, even if a driver had no fear, he can't floor it and drive like a madman like we do on simulators, a driver need to preserve the car, even with the more liberal regulations of the 80's for qualifying.

We need to remember there's no brake fade in GT, if we brake like we do in GT in real life, we would burn the brakes quite fast. Then there's the tyres, we know the grip in GT is quite high, but again, in real life, even (specially) in qualifying, the tyres stay in optimal condition only for a short time, and at Senna's challenges, there's no tire deterioration.

Basically, in GT, the car is always in optimal condition, the car is always performing at its very best. (I know there's some degree of deterioration ingame, but it's insignificant compared to real life).

And then there's all the enviroment conditions. In GT, the tracks are so clean, we always know where the maximum grip of the track is, it doesn't change from lap to lap, it's always in the same place, we aren't required to adapt to ever changing conditions (it doesn't rain during Senna's challenges), and well, I'm pretty sure the weather during Senna's qualify laps were different than the weather in GT challenges.

So, with the track, it's the same thing as it is with the car, in GT, the track is always in optimal condition to post a lap time.

And lets remember there's other drivers on track, even during qualify, even if a driver choose the perfect time, with minimum traffic, there's always someone, a driver can't be selfish (and Senna was quite selfish) and think only about himself, even if a driver have no fear of dying, you need to think about other people, wich isn't required in the game, because there's no one on the track.

tl;dr - the conditions in GT6 are always the best they can be, at all time.
 
The answer is predominantly tires. Weather conditions and the "fear of death" are very minor factors compared to what can be gained with ludicrously unrealistic tires. PD's racing softs are considerably stickier than any real slick used in modern motorsport, nevermind what they had in 1985. Try sports hards and see if you could beat Senna's times, and even then that might not be close to accurate.
 
Needless to say I was not happy when I noticed I was being forced to use Racing Soft tires. I guess PD wants this to bee a "feel good" addition to GT, but where's the harm in letting people pick their tires? Pretty lame.
 
Wide Boy
Actually I thought they were.
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well if that's how you feel that's how you feel. But i have no idea how you can possibly equate something done in a sim to something done in real life. Even if you jump into a real car and beat Senna's time on a real track do you think that would make you anywhere near as good as he is? Senna didnt become Senna by posting a few fastest laps.
According to you
That means if I am 2 seconds faster I am nearly as quick as their current drivers.
I most definitely am not so its not a sim & yes its just a game.
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I have no idea what you mean there. But you're doing these challenges with ABS on. Turn it off and tell me theyre easy.
 
SagarisGTB
The answer is predominantly tires. Weather conditions and the "fear of death" are very minor factors compared to what can be gained with ludicrously unrealistic tires. PD's racing softs are considerably stickier than any real slick used in modern motorsport, nevermind what they had in 1985. Try sports hards and see if you could beat Senna's times, and even then that might not be close to accurate.
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I won't have the update until tomorrow but I watched a couple of replays and noticed the RS tires. I think that's the majority of the difference in lap times. RH or SS might be closer to reality in terms of lap times. Has anyone been able to check corner entry speeds against real life, if that's even possible, from an old replay?
 
Gran Turismo is a game- if it was a 100% true simulator it would be unplayable- nobody would buy it. There's a reason that the GT Academy guys have to go to a boot camp- they have to prove they can drive in real life. If you could directly translate in game performance to real life they would just take the top guy strap him to a F1 car and say "Go for it" Your performance in the game will always be better than in real life.

The real tribute to Senna was in the slideshows and movie- not in the gameplay. The gameplay was there for you because- well you're playing a game.
 
Johnnypenso
I won't have the update until tomorrow but I watched a couple of replays and noticed the RS tires. I think that's the majority of the difference in lap times. RH or SS might be closer to reality in terms of lap times. Has anyone been able to check corner entry speeds against real life, if that's even possible, from an old replay?
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Unlikely. There weren't any onboard cameras at all in F1 until the mid-late 70s, and it wasn't until much later that we got onscreen basic telemetry. In fact, I don't recall seeing any telemetry shown at all in any of the F1 races I've seen from the 80s or 90s.
 
TT92
Doh! And here's me thinking I'm the next F1 legend and all! I am crushed..... (sniff) :-)

I beat the time by over a second on my third lap and I have never driven that track before.

Seriously now, I did have a lot of trouble at Brands Hatch and kept being 2/10s off the time. I think it was because I kept driving the track like it was the modern version and kept slowing up too much for the first few corners.

So to all the F1 teams reading this you can PM me here ;-)
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Ha, I could just imagine me and you fighting it out for the championship, being second's faster than the competition, I mean come on. After all we can get gold on Gran Turismo time trials, surely we missed our calling in life and should have been racing drivers ;). That 80's style Brands was a tricky one. I got gold be then realised I could find time in turns 2 and 7. I got out and waste about half an hour trying to beat my time, only to end up going slower in turns 4, 5 and 6 than I was before :confused:. Anyone managed to get a time under 1:06 yet?
 
Chris123
Ha, I could just imagine me and you fighting it out for the championship, being second's faster than the competition, I mean come on. After all we can get gold on Gran Turismo time trials, surely we missed our calling in life and should have been racing drivers ;). That 80's style Brands was a tricky one. I got gold be then realised I could find time in turns 2 and 7. I got out and waste about half an hour trying to beat my time, only to end up going slower in turns 4, 5 and 6 than I was before :confused:. Anyone managed to get a time under 1:06 yet?
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Now if we could only use SRF in real life and be 3-4 secs quicker than the opposition....................... mmmmmmmm
 
I get where the op is coming from but the angle of attack is pretty bizarre, it comes across as a petulant rant.

Arguments over real live vs simulation aside, it seems to be conveniently ignoring that Senna did not have the luxury of sitting there all afternoon trying to perfect his lap, he had only the allocated qualifying time. I don't know how many laps he had in that session, but I wonder how many players would match his time given the same limitations. What sort of time do you think Senna might achieve if he could sit in front of a playstation all weekend? I dare say he'd beat it by somewhat more than a small margin.

To suggest that those who can beat the set time it is making a mockery of Senna's abilities is just... :banghead:
 
Problems:
- You're using RS tires, which are unrealistic.
- You don't get the feeling of effort and risk as you do in real life.
- It's impossible to get the car's exact physics right.
 
Jump_Ace
I remember this argument from the GT2 days :dopey: It's a game take it for what it is.

Jerome
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BUT OMG IT'S THE REAL DRIVING SIMULATOR KAZ HAD TO DO IT REAL TO MAKE TRIUBTE TO SENNA THE BEST DRIVER TO HAVE EVER LIVED OMEG PD FAILS AT EVERYTHING IM FASTER DAN SENNA AND TAHT IS DISRESPECT! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Listen up, PD didn't screw up here, for once. They actually pulled off a compelling bit of DLC here, some very pretty models and gave the GT brand a big boost by jumping in the Senna bandwagon, gotta give them credit for that. Now, remember, as Jump_Ace said, it's just a freakin' game. Wanna know why I won't quit my day job & go take up motorsport for a living? Because I don't have the physical strength to turn the steering wheel of a proper single-seater car, nor the money to be able to ever sit in one, nor the balls to do it knowing that one teeny tiny mistake would send me barreling towards a wall in an attempt to sublimate my skin into the barrier.

There. That's why I play games, with a pretend steering wheel that rumbles, in the comfort of my home and why I'm able to beat Senna's time in absolutely theoretical and ideal conditions that leave aside a ton of factors that play a part in real life but that will never appear on a racing simulation, as advanced as it may be.
 
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