Senna Tribute turned into a mockery

  • Thread starter Thread starter Wide Boy
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Strange that no one mentioned G forces yet, if you would actually feel how you are driving that lotus in GT6 you would take every corner way slower as you're not used to the forces at work when going through them at those speeds.

Add to that perfect track conditions, no physical effort and no traffic and there's your answer.
 
I've been a harsh critic of anything that I've felt isn't that realistic in the GT games, but the Senna content is not something I feel compelled to criticise. The cars feel great, look great, and most thankfully, sound great, and if it all seems too easy then that's mostly because in a game you can hit the wall and then hit the restart button about fifty times before you get it right. Senna had no such luxury. PD exceeded my expectations with the Senna content, it was really enjoyable, and the cars, tracks and the challenges match my expectations for difficulty and are pretty good representations of the real life versions and events. On this content I would say, well done PD. :)
 
This thread is a little bit silly really. There are a great many variables that are not included in the game that will effect lap times.

Probably the most important are the profound physical stresses involved in driving an F1 car such as massive G forces and more importantly delta G; uncomfortable temperatures; visual constriction; vibration and visual / muscular impairment due to vibration. Etc...

Those stresses not only limit the driver's physical capacity to drive the car but also negatively impact his psychological capacity due to cognitive load.

There are other sources of cognitive load particular to actual motorracing as opposed to simulations (even the most accurate ones) such as knowing that millions of people are watching you and that family friends and team are relying on you not to make a mistake.

However, I think the most important differences are mechanical ones relating to the car. Things missing from GT6 include a racing line with increased grip (and one that has a progressive difference to the rest of the track as qualifying goes on, eg. marbling etc.); variation in track temperature and moisture retention; lift off-oversteer; a functioning clutch (although I haven't tried the game with a wheel that uses a clutch pedal, even with a semi-automatic changing gear mid corner should = crash); the need to maintain the engine and gearbox (especially in a car with turbo-lag).

The tire situation in general! Try those times in SS. Also, when the game doesn't have fuel depletion the fuel weighs nothing, try it with just a little fuel online (with fresh tires) and see the difference.

Enough?

Edit: that said , I love the game and think the Senna content is great.
 
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Well it seems I have a diffrent perspective to all you guys, perhaps because I have been a gatherer & collator of real life info for input into a game to make the experience as realistic as the game engine will allow.
I would have adjusted the tyre model to suit the time period & car (if that is indeed the problem)

My rational for this is
1) Want to give you the closest experience to the real thing the game model will allow.
2) Not sure here but I think not all tyres of the same class are the same. Game already models diffrent types with less grip for older cars & I think some with better grip for a few cars. Either that or some cars have very good chassis. So its feasible to do this.
3) Cant race the car offline due to its PP & the only thing comparable online is the Formula Gran Turismo so tyre model being diffrent wont have any impact on its in game use.
4) As its a tribute it would be important to me to get it right, but thats just me.

For sure its just a game & the content is very good but it would have made a better impression on me if I was left thinking just how the heck did he achieve that once I had done the challenges.

Anyway enough said were all different & lets leave it at that wasn't meant to get people hot under the collar.
 
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Wide Boy
So it seems many of us are faster than one of the best racing drivers their has ever been!!!

Either the car, track, tyre model or a combination of all 3 are wrong or you should quit your day job & go take up motorsport for a living.

Some will argue you can push a bit harder as there's no chance of injury if you muck it up but that doesn't really cut it. It just means you can find the limits quicker.

I don't think that really enters into a racing drivers makeup anyway & certainly not from that time period.
Tracks with a wall on corner exit they don't play it safe normally, rather they keep pushing till they are exiting within a few feet of it.
They wont do it every lap but if they need to they will take it to the edge knowing the consequences if they get it fractionally wrong.
On occasions they will say that was dangerous etc but they don't generally back off if they are good.

Sorry Senna you had your day but you were nothing special we can do better is what this Tribute says to me.
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Old school Monza is way better than the track we had though so that's a bonus
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So not only should they simulate every single thing about the car to 100% accuracy, somehow model Gforces, track and air temp, real life aero model, real life tyre model and somehow your steering wheel will replicate feedback like the real one let alone your shifter. In other word it's almost impossible to really compare the two, It's a light hearted challenge, not meant to see who of us is the next Senna.
 
Wide Boy
Sorry Senna you had your day but you were nothing special we can do better is what this Tribute says to me.
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Wha... What did I just read?

m1830.gif
 
sems4arsenal
So not only should they simulate every single thing about the car to 100% accuracy, somehow model Gforces, track and air temp, real life aero model, real life tyre model and somehow your steering wheel will replicate feedback like the real one let alone your shifter. In other word it's almost impossible to really compare the two, It's a light hearted challenge, not meant to see who of us is the next Senna.
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It wasn't us that set up the challenge to beat Senna's lap times, it was PD. If they are going to use his real lap times to set up challenges in the game, they are open to criticism for doing so.

I also don't like that fact that they characterize him as a "winner" on the World Karting Championship stage. Winner's are those that win, and he never won the World Karting Title. He was good, but not a winner. His story is positive enough, you don't have to make stuff up.
 
Wide Boy
So it seems many of us are faster than one of the best racing drivers their has ever been!!!

Either the car, track, tyre model or a combination of all 3 are wrong or you should quit your day job & go take up motorsport for a living.

Some will argue you can push a bit harder as there's no chance of injury if you muck it up but that doesn't really cut it. It just means you can find the limits quicker.

I don't think that really enters into a racing drivers makeup anyway & certainly not from that time period.
Tracks with a wall on corner exit they don't play it safe normally, rather they keep pushing till they are exiting within a few feet of it.
They wont do it every lap but if they need to they will take it to the edge knowing the consequences if they get it fractionally wrong.
On occasions they will say that was dangerous etc but they don't generally back off if they are good.

Sorry Senna you had your day but you were nothing special we can do better is what this Tribute says to me.
______________________________________________________________________

Old school Monza is way better than the track we had though so that's a bonus
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Your also forgetting that back in those days F1 cars didn't have flappy-paddle gearboxes!
 
If you really want it to be the challenge that it was for Senna I suggest this.

Get in the Lotus and try for a lap time under his record.

If you hit the wall at a speed slower than 40 Mph then have a week or two off before you try again.:yuck:

If you hit it any faster switch off because you don't get another try.:drool::eek:

I'm only kidding but that was his challenge not this fun game designed to be played on a joypad. :cheers:
 
R1600Turbo
Needless to say I was not happy when I noticed I was being forced to use Racing Soft tires. I guess PD wants this to bee a "feel good" addition to GT, but where's the harm in letting people pick their tires? Pretty lame.
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I agree. First thing I did was go to free mode and tried to beat it on Racing Hards. It's still too easy. I haven't tried SS though yet.
 
watchclockgit
I agree. First thing I did was go to free mode and tried to beat it on Racing Hards. It's still too easy. I haven't tried SS though yet.
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How close were you though? I expect a second or two cushion given equal grip just because there is no fear factor and we can use the entire track, ride curbs with abandon etc. without fear of calamity. We can find the limit easier than Senna could because if we go beyond it we don't get hurt and we have unlimited chances to do so. Also the six seconds on Monza might have a lot to do with top speed.
 
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I think it was 1:24:02?. I completely agree that real life = more careful. But there are many other reasons that it was more difficult for senna which PD can't replicate such as G forces; temperature; vibration; visual impairment etc ... As well as the things that PD could have simulated like top speed (as you say); lift off oversteer; changing gears mid corner (which is insanely unrealistic) etc...
 
Wide Boy
Well it seems I have a diffrent perspective to all you guys, perhaps because I have been a gatherer & collator of real life info for input into a game to make the experience as realistic as the game engine will allow.
I would have adjusted the tyre model to suit the time period & car (if that is indeed the problem)

My rational for this is
1) Want to give you the closest experience to the real thing the game model will allow.
2) Not sure here but I think not all tyres of the same class are the same. Game already models diffrent types with less grip for older cars & I think some with better grip for a few cars. Either that or some cars have very good chassis. So its feasible to do this.
3) Cant race the car offline due to its PP & the only thing comparable online is the Formula Gran Turismo so tyre model being diffrent wont have any impact on its in game use.
4) As its a tribute it would be important to me to get it right, but thats just me.

For sure its just a game & the content is very good but it would have made a better impression on me if I was left thinking just how the heck did he achieve that once I had done the challenges.

Anyway enough said were all different & lets leave it at that wasn't meant to get people hot under the collar.
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It doesnt have much to do with info or physics or grip coeficients or whatever. A gaming experience simply cannot come close enough to the real thing, or else it'd be the damn real thing. The physic calculations can be as accurate as possible and it still wouldn't matter because an average racer could be as fast or even faster than Senna. Why? Again, because he's sitting on a comfy chair, handling controls that require a very moderate physical effort and with the psychological comfort of having a reset button. Even if we had a very costly rig with motion, you still can't simulate the primal fear of smacking a wall at a speed that would render your bones to dust.

That's the difference between a race car driver in real life and us mortal average sim racers: We both know how to tackle a track, what to do and how, the difference is that they actually have the mental and physical strength, plus the ginormous courage, to go and do it.

As a tribute, it matters squat to get it right because nobody can't get it right. It's a simulation, moreso, it's a game. It can't be right. It can only be convincingly close to right, and that's what we have.
 
...There's really someone on this world that feels ''better'' than Senna because of a time trial in a game?
Even most of the current F1 drivers wouldn't be able to drive a mid 80's f1 beast like Senna did, probably lol.

This time trial have as a prize the most wanted car of this dlc, everyone with a bit of effort should be able to beat it, you can't really believe it's nowhere near close to reality. It's supposed to be possible for every player.
 
The game is unrealistic. Likewise, you mouthing off such nonsensic complains is something that could only happen in a virtual reality like this forum. In the physical world you'd probably think twice about doing so and being laughed and openly mocked.
 
If the game was accurate then beating the times of Senna would only be achieved by the very best players, with infinite laps at their disposal.. Somewhat at the level of difficulty of beating gold time of the GT5 Vettel challenge at Suzuka, or perhaps even more difficult. The fact that you can make many mistakes and completely crush the laptimes with sloppy laps means that the cars are not really very lifelike.

It's alright though, Gran Turismo has never been really very lifelike with laptimes, even the best of simulators are off.. I remember a practice session about 1-2 years back where they stated they had estimated a certain time in the Mclaren Simulator (with Gary Paffet) and the actual time on track turned out to be very different. Even the best simulators in the world get it wrong. It's not that surprising that a 1000 + car game with a generic physics engine designed to run on the PS3 is going to be a little off.

I think Gran Turismo has to take massive steps forward in the whole physics department before it gets close to nailing this sort of thing. Maybe we will see that step forward on the PS4, who knows.
 
for me....it was all far too easy to get golds. i expected more content than that and the last challenge should have been to beat 'that' Monaco pole lap.instead we get a video. wtf??
 
What would happen if you took a real racing driver, put him in an accurate sim, then let him run around on a track he just ran an actual race on with appropriate tires? Maybe this from Rene Rast?

This is a short Video of the Oreca 03 Lmp2 in Le Mans. I cut off all the long straights to make the video a bit shorter ;) Yesterday my fastest laptime in real life was 3.40.170 and one day later I tried the same car in Project Cars and did a 3.40.110. For me this is the best preparation for the 24h race as the car feels almost like the real Lmp2.
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Video edited to remove the uneventful straight sections
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So out all the people who got golds, did any of yall use a wheel with full manual and a clutch along with 0 ABS,TCS etc ?

I highly doubt that....
 
TayeezSA
So out all the people who got golds, did any of yall use a wheel with full manual and a clutch along with 0 ABS,TCS etc ?

I highly doubt that....
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The clutch model is so bad in GT I can't use it so I just powershift instead, but as far as the rest, yes I have run the events without aids and achieved gold times. Just takes a little practice. Others have already posted here they've done the same.
 
TayeezSA
So out all the people who got golds, did any of yall use a wheel with full manual and a clutch along with 0 ABS,TCS etc ?

I highly doubt that....
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I did at Monza, missed a 4th gear change 4 times because of the broken clutch system and still got gold by 3 seconds, it's really not hard at Monza. At Brands I did not use the clutch for obvious reasons, it's just not worth using. Didn't use ABS on either track, only beat Brands by 1 second but it was a sloppy lap.
 
Johnnypenso
What would happen if you took a real racing driver, put him in an accurate sim, then let him run around on a track he just ran an actual race on with appropriate tires? Maybe this from Rene Rast?


Video edited to remove the uneventful straight sections
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Thank you for that post, based on it I can see where my money will be going as it looks like someone is doing their homework.
 

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