Seriously guys...

[RWB1213]

Complaining is every born-American's right. Some folks actually do it with pride, and allow it to define their existance.

I'm not one of those, however I do reserve the right to critcise, especially when marketing and a financial transaction take place with my money.

That said, I think the reason these forums are thick with complaints are because many loyal GT fans are let down- not because they are terminal complainers. The GT franchise has always been the gold standard of driving/racing simulators . . . and IMO that title is now in question. Competitive titles have raised the bar, and this GT5 release seems to ignore the advances made by competitive titles (and to some degree even it's own previous GT titles), while "over-selling" it's own features.

Everyone hates complaining just for the sake of complaining, but I don't think that's entirely the case when it comes to criticism of GT5.

 

[C_Raccoon23]

I dont know how can you compare GT3 and GT4 with GT5 that now has a little new thing added called Online Mode.
I much rather race against living people i serius organized event than the boring A-spec in wich I get no thrill at all and becouse of online mode in GT5 it is bay far my favourite in the series.

Good for you that you enjoy online, but I disagree about A-spec being boring in previous games. I'm replaying GT3 and by the looks of it, I'm going to a have much more enjoyable time with it than I did with GT5. I know I had a blast the first time. There were always races in that game that made me want to keep playing and were challenging, such as the Vitz race in Professional league. The same goes for all the other GTs.

GT never disappointed me with its single player experience until now.

 

[sesselpupser]

But how can people NOT get tired of a game if they only play it for 2 months (this means keep playing the same thing for 2 months)? It even looks like there is nothing else out there...

I don't know what you're on about, I've been playing it since the release date, I think I've played Black Ops for about 3 hours since then and literally nothing else has touched my PS3 (oh, and Dead Nation), but I still love GT5. I am, I'll admit, a die-hard GT fan, car fan, gaming fan and I have an unusually high boredom threshold (I blame my job for that), so I kind of knew what to expect from GT5, my love of cars and gaming overrides most negative feelings I have for the game and grinding doesn't bother me...

However, I will say that as a game it totally sucks, whoever thought exponential XP requirements was a good idea needs to be, er, reevaluated and the online mode is very one dimensional. An online career would have been a great addition, I think. Also the AI is the worst I've seen in any game for about 6 years (since GT4... Strange) and... I think that's it, actually.

I just think what it did well, it did better than any other game like it, and what it did badly, so far, just means I can't do the endurance races all at once. Given that I unlocked them ages ago and haven't done a single one yet, that doesn't bother me much.

But, that's just me, GT5 is far too complex to be a mainstream game as far as I'm concerned, you wouldn't see Sony release a World of Warcraft style game the same way as they do with Uncharted, Resistance and Killzone games, so I'm a bit puzzled by the marketing behind GT5. Of course, to make it appeal to everyone, they'd have to make it quite unappealing to the fans...

 

[FLIGHT50]

Metawhining ftl.

To answer your question:
People are so critical because, relative to what the state of the videogame industry was, at the time, GT4 was a better. And so was GT3, in my opinion.

It had an AAA development time, an AAA development budget but has to compete with Forza and even Shift instead of totally trouncing them.

Plus, I smell a lock coming.

/edit:
If you want to get a little more in depth explanation, look at this thread.
More than enough "leave GT5 alone!!!!1one *sadface*" posts in there as well.

I have to second this. GT4 was ahead of the game when it released. The times have caught up but PD really hasn't. OP-you stated that you have been playing since GT1. Perhaps you are a very very casual gamer. For most of us that have been playing since GT1, we know the pros and cons for each game. What the next title brought to the table without going backwards much. You can't tell us that GT5 hasn't taken steps back. For every step they moved forward with GT5, they took 2 steps backwards. But your opinion is your opinion and your entitled to it. Also you may want to breathe a lil bit, it was a tad bit difficult reading thru your paragraph sentences.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

I feel your pain mate (if the game was that bad)
But there is an even easier solution!!!:idea:Enjoy what life has to offer, don't worry about the release day of a game (or it will take longer), and NEVER buy a console for playing A game WITHOUT reading reviews first
Just some thoughts...

I'm not saying playing GT5 is the only thing I do!

I have lots of hobbies and pastimes (music, golf, art, writing, real life driving to name but a few), as well as work, wife and a couple of kids which keep me more than occupied. It's just that when it comes to computer games, I only play ONE; Gran Turismo (although, truth be known, I also played Forza 3 for a year on and off). Gran Turismo 5 is the only time I've felt let down by PD.

I'm not crying in the corner of my room, but I am massively disappointed.

 

[Vagabond]

Complaining is every born-American's right.

Its everyone else's right too, you know, unless you've been lobotomised or live in a country run by a tyrannical despot. Even then its still your right, just a right that is either not accessible to you or has been denied by an oppressive regime.

There is a difference, though, between constructively criticizing something and band-wagon bashing because its become a popular passtime. Both are occurring here at GTP and probably every other forum that deals with anything GT5.

There are many things about GT5 that are commendable if not excellent.
-The premium cars look superb
-The physics are excellent on most cars (F1 cars seem all wrong though)(I made some F1 physics setups myself for rFactor)
-The online racing is great if you find a good crew to race. Thankfully I'm a GTP registered racer so finding good folks to race with is not hard. (GTP_ )

The main thing lacking is its content as a game, not as racing sim. And the way they have structured certain features defies logic - specifically the XP points given the lack of choice of races to gain them fast enough without repeat repeat repeat.

The shadows are horrible. Truly awful. Ruin the beautifully modelled premiums.

Standard cars and BSpec are beyond explanation and bring only expletives to mind.

But in no way does this make the game "horribly broken", just disappointing given the budget and time of development. I bought Prologue as did many many others - a nice cash injection for PD and a taster for us. Honestly though, GT5 does not reach the bar that Prologue set and even graphically, it does not look as polished.

This is a good community on the whole and exists to give voices to all its members so long as those voices remain respectful. It does not say those voices should all be raised in adoring praise of all things Gran Turismo and welcomes both positive and negative views. Most of the criticisms I've read about GT5, I agree with - they have been put succinctly and have raised points that on the whole been almost universally echoed. These voices will not and should not be silenced simply because there is a trend of GT bashing.

Kaz and his crew have thick enough skins and deep enough pockets to weather this storm I'm sure. It will be a test of their community spirit to see how they come back at us with their defence.

 

[Bearcats]

There are people that accept mediocrity and will put their heads in the sand to make sure they are not exposed to it. They will defend it to the end at what cost? Will PD defend you or help you out?

There is no way in the modern world that any code jockey would have been allowed to get away with this monstrosity. Delays, bad code, inability to meet design spec (marketing jargon), network platform issues..we could go on. Because people blindly accept what is delivered there is no reason to make corrections or make it better. A gentlemen earlier in this thread said PD has their money and their suckers (me included). We all saw Prologue and thought...HOT DAMN! What we got was a compilation album.

A case in point: The whole GT Acadamy was CANCELLED for race two because it just dawned on PD that wall riders and corner cutting was causing problems....*rolls eyes*

 

[ElSecundo]

Its everyone else's right too, you know, unless you've been lobotomised or live in a country run by a tyrannical despot. Even then its still your right, just a right that is either not accessible to you or has been denied by an oppressive regime.

There is a difference, though, between constructively criticizing something and band-wagon bashing because its become a popular passtime. Both are occurring here at GTP and probably every other forum that deals with anything GT5.

There are many things about GT5 that are commendable if not excellent.
-The premium cars look superb
-The physics are excellent on most cars (F1 cars seem all wrong though)(I made some F1 physics setups myself for rFactor)
-The online racing is great if you find a good crew to race. Thankfully I'm a GTP registered racer so finding good folks to race with is not hard. (GTP_ )

The main thing lacking is its content as a game, not as racing sim. And the way they have structured certain features defies logic - specifically the XP points given the lack of choice of races to gain them fast enough without repeat repeat repeat.

The shadows are horrible. Truly awful. Ruin the beautifully modelled premiums.

Standard cars and BSpec are beyond explanation and bring only expletives to mind.

But in no way does this make the game "horribly broken", just disappointing given the budget and time of development. I bought Prologue as did many many others - a nice cash injection for PD and a taster for us. Honestly though, GT5 does not reach the bar that Prologue set and even graphically, it does not look as polished.

This is a good community on the whole and exists to give voices to all its members so long as those voices remain respectful. It does not say those voices should all be raised in adoring praise of all things Gran Turismo and welcomes both positive and negative views. Most of the criticisms I've read about GT5, I agree with - they have been put succinctly and have raised points that on the whole been almost universally echoed. These voices will not and should not be silenced simply because there is a trend of GT bashing.

Kaz and his crew have thick enough skins and deep enough pockets to weather this storm I'm sure. It will be a test of their community spirit to see how they come back at us with their defence.

Very well said, especially "This is a good community on the whole and exists to give voices to all its members so long as those voices remain respectful. It does not say those voices should all be raised in adoring praise of all things Gran Turismo and welcomes both positive and negative views."
👍

 

[alonsof1fan91]

Complaining about some major flaws is necessary to make sure that the successor of a product gets better...
Just don`t forget one thing, its a game. A game which allows you to drive one of 1000 cars around some tracks.

Yes, it lacks many things. Leaderbords, rewind feature during replays, a better menu structure. It also has some deep ingame flaws, you can`t change the setup/tires of your car in a online lobby if you already entered the track. Also, tire models have some bug, enter a event with a FGT and change your slicks to rain tires... The game will still use the slick tire model. But if you enter another event with already equipped wets, it will show the wet tire model no matter what tire you choose.

In the end of the day, GT5 had alot of let downs, sadly almost no positive suprises... but hey, its still a good game.

 

[RWB1213]

Nothing could hurt PD/GT6 more than silencing GT5 critics.

 

[ElSecundo]

Nothing could hurt PD/GT6 more than silencing GT5 critics.

Agreed.

And nothing could hurt critics' case more than citicizing in an insulting manner.

Nobody is trying to stifle the criticism, they're just trying to make sure that the criticism is constructive/useful, rather than empty whining. Even the folks who love the game admit that there are things to be improved. But the useless crying is just noise pollution.

 

[BWX]

I like GT5, I think it's great, but there is one huge problem with it. The big problem? Look at my sig. If you don't see anything wrong with GT5 and "have no complaints", I guess you never really knew what made other GTs so great (not including PSP version)... It was the seemingly endless, extremely well thought out, challenging, balanced, and just plain fun single player career mode.

GT5's A-Spec is total crap in almost every way compared to the earlier GT single player campaigns. The driving physics and Ai is better, but as far as game-play goes, that's about it.

The good part is that PD can patch GT5 and put in more single player a-spec type racing in GT5. We can at least hope this happens at some point.


edit:
For people without sig option turned on:

GT4 - 522 A-spec races
GT5 - 127 A-Spec races

 

[Luminis]

Agreed.

And nothing could hurt critics' case more than citicizing in an insulting manner.

Nobody is trying to stifle the criticism, they're just trying to make sure that the criticism is constructive/useful, rather than empty whining. Even the folks who love the game admit that there are things to be improved. But the useless crying is just noise pollution.

And what exactly is 'useful' criticism and what isn't? Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you, but the thing is:
To some people, all kinds of criticism towards their holy grail of the gaming world is immediately considered to be insulting, inappropriate, immature, empty whining and so on.

On an unrelated note, there's a lot of 'black and white' mentality around.
"Don't like it? Go away!" isn't something that works in most cases. Why? Simply put, just because something needs to be criticised doesn't mean that I can't enjoy it.
That's been said a dozen times by now, I know, but seriously, seems like some people don't get. Or rather, don't want to get it.

 

[RWB1213]

Agreed.

And nothing could hurt critics' case more than citicizing in an insulting manner.

Nobody is trying to stifle the criticism, they're just trying to make sure that the criticism is constructive/useful, rather than empty whining. Even the folks who love the game admit that there are things to be improved. But the useless crying is just noise pollution.

Ahh, and for every post of insulting criticism there seems to be an equally insulting post in defense. It seems forums are a place where great thoughts and ideas go to get stoned by the passionately ignorant.

 

[ElSecundo]

And what exactly is 'useful' criticism and what isn't? Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you, but the thing is:
To some people, all kinds of criticism towards their holy grail of the gaming world is immediately considered to be insulting, inappropriate, immature, empty whining and so on.

On an unrelated note, there's a lot of 'black and white' mentality around.
"Don't like it? Go away!" isn't something that works in most cases. Why? Simply put, just because something needs to be criticised doesn't mean that I can't enjoy it.
That's been said a dozen times by now, I know, but seriously, seems like some people don't get. Or rather, don't want to get it.

Good points.
Your 'unrelated' note is probably very much related.

All the problems in these board discussions come from a general lack of respect. There's a lack of respect for people with differing opinions, and there's a real lack of respect toward the game developers (the guys bringing us this thing that we want improved so badly).

There seem to be very, very few who think the game is 'perfect'. It seems there is general agreement that it needs improvement. Discussion about shortcomings and ways to improve them is quite a bit different from saying "this is crap" or something similar, which we hear a lot around here. Ideas for improvement are welcome, but "this is crap" gets pretty old (besides being useless).

But everybody is different, and some people are just unable to bring anything new to the table. I'm betting that the "this is crap" crowd has some good ideas, they just have to be pushed a little to offer their ideas instead of "this is crap" repeated over and over again.

 

[Luminis]

Good points.
Your 'unrelated' note is probably very much related.

[SNIP]

But everybody is different, and some people are just unable to bring anything new to the table. I'm betting that the "this is crap" crowd has some good ideas, they just have to be pushed a little to offer their ideas instead of "this is crap" repeated over and over again.

Agreed. For the most part, at least. I think that a lot of the 'this is crap' posts are what they are because a lot of meaningful criticism is being shot down just as the crappy criticism, by what is, at times, refered to as the 'GT5 Defense Force'
There is a point when you're tyred of pointing out the flaws along with a possible solution (or multiple solutions, even). Mostly because that kind of post is quite often met with the same 'NO U' attitude as any other.

Now, when a post along the lines of 'don't criticise the game, damn it!' comes about, there is less and less incentive to go about each and every point again, including the corresponding solutions.
It kinda turns into a debate about whether criticism is applicable to GT5 or not.

 

[Vagabond]

It seems forums are a place where great thoughts and ideas go to get stoned by the passionately ignorant.

And by contrast forums are also places where informed debate occurs in an atmosphere of enlightened self-interest.

For every eloquently cynical illumination, there is an equally eloquent and ironic riposte.

 

[RWB1213]

Agreed. For the most part, at least. I think that a lot of the 'this is crap' posts are what they are because a lot of meaningful criticism is being shot down just as the crappy criticism, by what is, at times, refered to as the 'GT5 Defense Force'
There is a point when you're tyred of pointing out the flaws along with a possible solution (or multiple solutions, even). Mostly because that kind of post is quite often met with the same 'NO U' attitude as any other.

Now, when a post along the lines of 'don't criticise the game, damn it!' comes about, there is less and less incentive to go about each and every point again, including the corresponding solutions.
It kinda turns into a debate about whether criticism is applicable to GT5 or not.

Well put, now if we could get the haters and the fanboys to agree that the game is neither crap nor perfect, and have some intelligent conversations about what people like and don't like without judgement (which is a quite lofty goal in my experience) we could get some where.

 

[RWB1213]

And by contrast forums are also places where informed debate occurs in an atmosphere of enlightened self-interest.

For every eloquently cynical illumination, there is an equally eloquent and ironic riposte.

Touche, however my experience favors the former over than the latter.

 

[ucwepn]

I agree with the OP I love the game despite some small faults. People like to whine to get attention IMO.

 

[Vagabond]

Well put, now if we could get the haters and the fanboys to agree that the game is neither crap nor perfect, and have some intelligent conversations about what people like and don't like without judgement (which is a quite lofty goal in my experience) we could get some where.

Some of us have been doing that already but you have to read the entire thread (or indeed forum) to realise that. ... as the post prior to mine illustrates quite superbly.

Touche, however my experience favors the former over than the latter.

I can't argue with that. Its a point of fact that waiting to speak is easier than listening.

 

[Luminis]

I agree with the OP I love the game despite some small faults. People like to whine to get attention IMO.

See, posts like these are the reason I, personally, get a bit snappy at times. and it's that kind of attitude that can easily halt a decent discussion dead in its tracks.
Especially because it seems to be attacking the person that the criticism comes from instead of arguing the criticism itself (possibly because it can't be argued).

 

[ElSecundo]

Agreed. For the most part, at least. I think that a lot of the 'this is crap' posts are what they are because a lot of meaningful criticism is being shot down just as the crappy criticism, by what is, at times, refered to as the 'GT5 Defense Force'

I hate to say it, but it's true. People can get very defensive about things they like, as if saying something about the thing they like somehow hurts them. I mean, it's not like we're calling each other's mom fat, or something. If that's all we want to do, we can just go to www.yourmomisugly.com.

So what's meaningful criticism? Criticism that isn't intentionally insulting, I guess. There's nothing like trying to get work from somebody by calling them lazy, head-stuck-up-their-butt-good-for-nothings. That doesn't belong here.

Meaningful criticism also has ideas. "This sucks" is useless. But an example of something useful: BWX criticized lack of content, and mentioned "GT4 - 522 A-spec races; GT5 - 127 A-Spec races." This fact speaks volumes -- no insults necessary.

Criticism is certainly fair game. This is where we tell PD and Sony what we want and need, and if they're unwilling to deliver it, why we'll be spending our money somewhere else.

 

[Vagabond]

...snip...

So what's meaningful criticism? Criticism that isn't intentionally insulting, I guess. There's nothing like trying to get work from somebody by calling them lazy, head-stuck-up-their-butt-good-for-nothings. That doesn't belong here.

...snip...

Help!

Who am I?

What is my purpose in life?

These and other questions will (eventually) be answered by the GTP Informed Debate and Philosophical Think-tank Board Group Commitee ....

 

[ElSecundo]

who am i?

What is my purpose in life?

42.

 

[x3n0n1x]

At the end the only thing you have control over is yourself and trying to change others minds is an exercise in futility. It can be hard not to attempt to correct someone that you feel is in some way wrong, but it should be something that is practiced more.

I feel that this is the biggest problem on these forums, where people continuously try to either insult or sway the opinions of others without taking into account anything else. Things like how other may feel about what you are saying, or the original topic at hand and so on. If a thread goes off topic then the considerate and organized thing to do would be to start a new thread about what you want to discuss (or yell at people ) instead of hijacking the thread for your own purposes.

When on topic, make your point, respond only if your response will actually add something valuable to the conversation, and for the love of all thats good in the world DON'T FEED THE TROLLS.

For every person who at least keeps this stuff in mind, the forum will become that little bit more friendly and more useful for everyone on it.

Just a little more food for thought.

 

[Luminis]

Meaningful criticism also has ideas. "This sucks" is useless. But an example of something useful: BWX criticized lack of content, and mentioned "GT4 - 522 A-spec races; GT5 - 127 A-Spec races." This fact speaks volumes -- no insults necessary.

That's where things get complicated a little. Let's say I was to criticise the lack of, say, adjustable tyre pressure. Just for example. Let's also assume that I've been naming the reasons why I think it is important at least a dozen times.
Let us assume furthermore that the usual defense force is doing what they do best again.

I think it's not very suprising to see it turn into "no tyre pressure? Bollocks, that's rubbish!" At least as far as simple stuff like that is concerned. And I think that a lot of criticism is pretty obviously justified, even without an explanation. And, more importantly, a lot of it is so obvious that the solution shouldn't have to be named each and every time.

 

[Griffith500]

Excellent stuff. I think we've made progress today!

Now, how do we spread the love, as it were? How do we get everyone talking on the same page and not jumping into insult mode? Would it be good to have an "objective" summary (after discussion) of each and every flaw in the game? Sort of like the "GTP feedback" thing Jordan has going on, but more succinct, less emotional and not spread across multiple posts?

 

[Vagabond]

...snip...

That, right there, that's IT. We've all been recklessly misusing the forums for all these years but its taken your wonderful post to draw our attention to it....

That.. that's beautiful man.

I think I love you now, in.. ya know.. a really deeply respectful way.

 

[Luminis]

Excellent stuff. I think we've made progress today!

Hello, my name is Luminis and I'm... Late to the party I guess