Shifting without the clutch

[Boz Mon]

Ok, I did a search and found a bunch of different opinions about this. Some saying that it's good others saying bad. What are the facts? is it bad or good? is there a right way to do it? any info will be greatly appriciated

 

[Jay]

We have had lots of disscusion on the subject, a search should have located quite a few threads on it.

There is nothing wrong with clutchless shifting aslong as you match the input and output shafts of the transmission correctly (ie match engine to road speed for the gear of choice). If your downshifting while braking good heel toe skills are required.


I have done quite abit of it in my time.

 

[eliseracer]

As mentioned, when done right, it is not a bad thing. Check any rally series (okay, not the big budget teams) that do regional races. There is no way they can afford a sequential gearbox. They just plough through the gears without the clutch.

 

[Mr. McShake]

Speaking of shifting. When I was forced to use a manual trans car for the first time I had to learn on my own. When I was breaking hard like to make a right hand turn I'd hold the clutch down while turning and then downshift once I was done breaking and began to hit the gas again.

Is that the proper way or no?

 

[Azuremen]

Just for normal driving, yes. For racing, no. You'd toe and heel so your RPMs would match you speed in the lower gear, shift into while braking before you turn.

But yeah, that's just fine, and should be easier on the car as long as you don't slip the clutch...

 

[VIPFREAK]

I never did get the idea of heal and toe because if I were to do it in my car I'd have to break my angle so it would reach the brake and gas pedal.

So... I'm assuming there's a mod involved so that heal and toe is possible because I think that's what they did to the Neons at the Skip Barber Driving school.

As for clutchless braking... I have a rubberband for an engine so I don't feel like breaking my tranny in the process. 👍

 

[Purple Platypus]

Heel toe downshifting isn't actually all that hard, depending on the spacing of your pedals. I've got a 93 toyota pickup, which is about as un-sporty as you get, but I can heel-toe fairly easily. It's mostly a point of getting the right side of the brake and the left side of the gas. Also, "heel-toe" is a wee bit of a misnomer. It's more like ball of foot-right side of foot.

But...yes, you can get big racing pedals that have better feel or something, I suppose.

 

[Sage]

Depends on how closely the pedals in your car are spaced. For example, my truck's pedals are spaced so far apart that it's physically impossible to do it (not that I'd want to do it in a truck anyway -- spongy brakes and non-rev-happy engine and all that), while on the other hand it's not too difficult in our Subie.

I'm not about to try clutchless shifting anytime soon though.

[edit]: Whoops, took me too long to type that up. Treed!

 

[Duke]

So... I'm assuming there's a mod involved so that heal and toe is possible because I think that's what they did to the Neons at the Skip Barber Driving school.

I have a Neon ACR (1st gen) just like they use(d) at Skip Barber, and I heel-and-toe most downshifts, at least where I'm planning to accelerate again directly after. I don't have any pedal modifications. It just works better when you're braking a little harder.

I brace my knee against the console, put the ball of my right foot on the brake, rotate my foot a little, and roll my ankle to blip the throttle with the outside edge of my foot. It works fine and it's nice and smooth even for everyday driving.

 

[Delirious]

okay, call me stupid but since im stuch with my auto 95 taurus se (and only learned how to drive a manual in 30 minutes with a 1990 ford fiesta)...what is heel and toe shifting and what are the benefits of it (if any) ?

and how on earth can you shift in a car with a clutch without using the clutch? (unless if it is only by heel and toe shifting you can shift without a clutch, and if it is only by heel and toe...how does it work) (if not by heel and toe, what do you do so it does work/how it works as far as shifting without a clutch)

does that make any sense??

 

[///M-Spec]

and how on earth can you shift in a car with a clutch without using the clutch?

Simply put, when you are ready to shift, you pop the shifter out of gear without depressing the clutch pedal. You then pull the shifter towards the gate of the gear you want. If you match the revs of the input and output shafts correctly, the shifter should slip right into gear. You never touch the clutch pedal.

Some people (mostly racers) are very good at this. It is theoretically smoother and easier on the transmission. I am not very good at this because I drive a modern street car with strong synchros and don't really see much point in it, except for the cool factor.


M

 

[Race Idiot]

I brace my knee against the console, put the ball of my right foot on the brake, rotate my foot a little, and roll my ankle to blip the throttle with the outside edge of my foot. It works fine and it's nice and smooth even for everyday driving.

Is there possibly a diagram where I can see this? So the ball of your foot on the brake and the sort of right side of your foot on the accelerator?

 

[Delirious]

"If you match the revs of the input and output shafts correctly, the shifter should slip right into gear."

now how do you do that?

 

[Sniffs]

and here I thought the manual tranny was dead, even in trucks

i've ridden in a total of TWO manual shift vehicles Rangers and one Cavalier on occasion. I was never trained on a manual, and have never driven a manual except to move an old first gen ranger. even then I didn't shift.
at my age, I should have seen absolutely nothing BUT manuals, however, since I was rather late behind the wheel, by then it was all automatics. consider yourselves lucky you have that skill, because I doubt if I'll ever get behind a wheel again, because of this blasted jobless job market.

 

[///M-Spec]

"If you match the revs of the input and output shafts correctly, the shifter should slip right into gear."

now how do you do that?

With your right foot which is on the throttle (or brakes, if you are heel-toe'ing). You match the engine speed with what it should be at the gear you want to shift into at the speed which the car is travelling. If this sounds tricky, that's because it is. But the pros can do it without even thinking about it.


M

 

[Duke]

Is there possibly a diagram where I can see this? So the ball of your foot on the brake and the sort of right side of your foot on the accelerator?

Yes. The exact positioning is going to vary by car, but that's how I do it.

Some people (mostly racers) are very good at this. It is theoretically smoother and easier on the transmission. I am not very good at this because I drive a modern street car with strong synchros and don't really see much point in it, except for the cool factor.

 

[DQuaN]

Heel on the gas Toe on the brake!

An easy way to learn how to not use the clutch is what i did in my old fiesta.

I would cruise along at 20mph in third gear. Then i would apply gentle pressure to the gear lever to push it out of gear, and then slowly accelerate. When I get to the right speed where everything is synched, it will just pop right out of gear. Then I'd remember the pitch of the engine when i was able to do this, gently raise the revs, and then at the right time, pop it back into third.

It will give you an idea of how to start off.

 

[skicrush]

Dunc, that's how I used to do it in my 84 Toyota 4x4. It worked great--until I had to replace the tranny. Pretty stoopid, considering it had 160k+ on the odometer. I think it works best in sports cars!!

 

[Jay]

and here I thought the manual tranny was dead, even in trucks

Maybe in the US, but its definitely not dead.


Remember people to match trans input and output speeds you must lower the engine revs whilt upshifting and increase revs while downshifting (this is where the heel toe comes in handy)

 

[Boz Mon]

ok, I figured out how to do it without the clutch and ive been doing it for about a day now. my next question is, is this bad for my transmission? I dont want to be doing this and figure out that its bad.

 

[humbo]

So if you're upshifting without using the clutch, you'll have to put it in neutral, then let go of the gas pedal so the engine slows down, while applying pressure to the shifter towards the next gear?

 

[Jay]

Yes pretty much, let go of the gas first otherwise it wont want to slip out of gear into neutral, If the revs drop too low too quickly (eg idle) youll have to bring the revs back up slightly, only mild pressure on the shifter is required never force.

Once you get used to it, your shifting becomes very smooth and fast without the clutch. My friends couldnt believe it when I pointed out I wasnt using a clutch.. great trick.

ok, I figured out how to do it without the clutch and ive been doing it for about a day now. my next question is, is this bad for my transmission? I dont want to be doing this and figure out that its bad.

If your not forcing it and you get the input and output shaft speeds right so it slips into gear then its not bad for the trans at all.

 

[humbo]

I have a question about coming to a complete stop. Which usage of the clutch is the best method in terms of not damaging anything.

Should you disengage the clutch while you brake until you stop, then let it go into neutral? And should you keep the shifter in gear until you come to a stop before shifting it into neutral, or should you put it into neutral right away, this is while you have the clutch depressed as you stop.

Or should you put it into neutral and let go of the clutch while you brake?

 

[Jay]

Thats really open to personal choice, these days when Im coming to a complete stop im obviously not racing to a stop so I just pop it into neutral and coast to a stop and then sit in neutral with the clutch out.

Ethier way it doesnt really matter.

 

[dori-san]

it's too much to think about if you're going to slam into someone. if you have to stop in a hurry, just jump on the clutch and the brake at the same time. you could just use the brake, but the engine would stall... this is why you also use the clutch. so: left foot clutch, right foot brake... jam until you've stopped. once fully stopped (inches away from the car in front of you) take a deep breath, relax, wipe the sweat from your brow, and then "oh, better take it out of 4th and put it in neutral (or 1st if the light has already turned green at this point)."

 

[Jay]

it's too much to think about if you're going to slam into someone.

When your in a emergency situation you dont "think" you just DO!

 

[humbo]

Heh thanks for the help guys.

 

[PS]

How do you find out what the correct speed is at which to do so? I'm assuming thet since every car is different due to power output, gear ratios, engine displacement etc., would you have to know where your peak power is or something?

I'm still not sure what you guys mean by matching the input with the output.

[edit]

Oh oh oh—is it when your speedometre and tachometre are both still/not accelerating/decelerating???

 

[skip0110]

How do you find out what the correct speed is at which to do so? I'm assuming thet since every car is different due to power output, gear ratios, engine displacement etc., would you have to know where your peak power is or something?

I'm still not sure what you guys mean by matching the input with the output.

[edit]

Oh oh oh—is it when your speedometre and tachometre are both still/not accelerating/decelerating???

Say I turn 4000 rpms at 30 mph in 2nd gear, and 2300 rpms in 3rd. Downshifting without the clutch from 3rd to 2nd at 30 mph, I would blip the revs to 4000 before I push the gear selector into 2nd, while it is in neutral.

 

[VIPFREAK]

Thats really open to personal choice, these days when Im coming to a complete stop im obviously not racing to a stop so I just pop it into neutral and coast to a stop and then sit in neutral with the clutch out.

Ethier way it doesnt really matter.

I was told this was a bad habit but I'm not sure why... I suppose because you don't have control when the car is in neutral and you can't do anything in an emergency untill you come to that complete stop?

it's too much to think about if you're going to slam into someone. if you have to stop in a hurry, just jump on the clutch and the brake at the same time. you could just use the brake, but the engine would stall... this is why you also use the clutch. so: left foot clutch, right foot brake... jam until you've stopped. once fully stopped (inches away from the car in front of you) take a deep breath, relax, wipe the sweat from your brow, and then "oh, better take it out of 4th and put it in neutral (or 1st if the light has already turned green at this point)."

I get the image of something like in Gone in sixty seconds (new version) where Cage is driving Eleanor down the alley and ecounters a garbage truck blocking the way and he has to quickly stop. The only difference from him is you are out of control because of the comments you said above.