Shifting without the clutch

[MR8]

I was told this was a bad habit but I'm not sure why... I suppose because you don't have control when the car is in neutral and you can't do anything in an emergency untill you come to that complete stop?

If anything happens when you're in neutral you can simply shift back to gear and you wouldn't even think before you step on the clutch. It's almost second nature when you've been driving long enough. You should see me drive an automatic. My left foot panics because that spot is empty, and I have to look down the gear lever to see what gear I'm in. P/N/D/1/2/3??? What the...? Matter fact, it's been so long I don't even remember how to start up my friend's auto SUV. I was like "Dude, where's the clutch and what's with the huge shift knob with the button?"

Brake pads are much cheaper and quicker to replace than a new clutch. Downshifting wears out the clutch & etc. while you'll only wear out the brake pads when you're slowing down in neutral. It's just more economical in the long run.

But back to the main subject, can anyone be THAT lazy to power-shift in a non-racing situation?

 

[VIPFREAK]

Yeah... the first time I drove an auto after I had just gotten use to stick it sucked ass because I literally thought the brake was the clutch and almost stopped on a freeway offramp when I didn't want to stop. As for downshifting I still haven't gotten that down but yeah I know what you mean about preserving the clutch.

 

[Jmac279]

"If you match the revs of the input and output shafts correctly, the shifter should slip right into gear."

now how do you do that?

x2

 

[MR8]

Yeah... the first time I drove an auto after I had just gotten use to stick it sucked ass because I literally thought the brake was the clutch and almost stopped on a freeway offramp when I didn't want to stop. As for downshifting I still haven't gotten that down but yeah I know what you mean about preserving the clutch.

That would've been some scary **** if I was behind you! I'd look like this in your rearview "" .....and then road rage hits. 🤬

PS: I just realized, in my reply when I wrote "P/N/D/1/2/3", that I missed the all important "R". iI'm stooopid. 👎

 

[Jay]

If anything happens when you're in neutral you can simply shift back to gear and you wouldn't even think before you step on the clutch. It's almost second nature when you've been driving long enough. You should see me drive an automatic. My left foot panics because that spot is empty, and I have to look down the gear lever to see what gear I'm in. P/N/D/1/2/3??? What the...? Matter fact, it's been so long I don't even remember how to start up my friend's auto SUV. I was like "Dude, where's the clutch and what's with the huge shift knob with the button?"

Brake pads are much cheaper and quicker to replace than a new clutch. Downshifting wears out the clutch & etc. while you'll only wear out the brake pads when you're slowing down in neutral. It's just more economical in the long run.

Exactly, I rarely drive autos so I have pretty much same feeling when driving.

 

[DQuaN]

I first drove an auto around 4 years after getting my licence! No one told me that you have to put your foot on the break before you can select Drive! I was sat there for about 10 minuites trying to work out why i couldn't move the shifter!

 

[VIPFREAK]

^

People that drive my car wonder why the car won't start but the reason is that you have to push the clutch in ALL THE WAY first.

 

[///M-Spec]

How do you find out what the correct speed is at which to do so? I'm assuming thet since every car is different due to power output, gear ratios, engine displacement etc., would you have to know where your peak power is or something?

Mostly correct. It is different from car to car, based on gearing (and the diameter of the driven wheels). Power and displacment are not factors.

Say your are driving a BMW 330i ZHP in 5th gear at 60 mph. At this speed, the engine is spinning at 2000 rpm. You want to shift to 3rd with using the clutch.

In 3rd gear, 60 mph spins the motor at roughly 4,300 RPM (if I remember correctly). That is your target engine speed. Of course, you'll have to account for a slight loss in speed as you shift into neutral and match revs.

Try the same thing in an M3 (which has different gearing) and the RPMs will be different. It'll be slightly higher because the M3 is geared shorter. Try this in a C5 and the speeds will be lower, because the C5 has taller gearing.


M

 

[Sage]

You should see me drive an automatic. My left foot panics because that spot is empty [...]

Oh, I'm totally the same way. Both of my parents' cars are sticks, so I learned how to drive and do my daily driving on a stick. The only time I've ever driven an auto was through driver's training -- I was hopelessly lost (the instructor probably thought I was an idiot). Every time I came to a stoplight, when I'd reach the last 30 feet or so, I'd panic because I couldn't find the clutch (once you stall a manual because you didn't put the clutch in when stopping, you never do it again).

Oh, what was really bad/annoying was: You know how if you slightly lift your foot off the brake in an auto, the car will move forward a bit? Well, anyway, while taking driver's training, when I came to each stopsign, I'd come to a complete stop, but while I looked right/left the car would start rolling, since I kept lifting my foot slightly off the brake -- since I'm used to having the clutch, I normally just keep the clutch in when at a stopsign and lift off the brake so that I'm ready to go when I need to. But, I kept instinctively doing this in the auto-driven driver's training cars, so the car would roll, and that pissed off my instructor to no end. He made me do the same loop about 5 times until I did it without letting the car roll after stopping (and to do that I had to put all my focus on "I'm driving an auto, I'm driving an auto").

I can't imagine liking driving an auto... it's so nice to know that one pedal gives you full control over the link between the engine and the wheels. Autos feel like they're "driving themselves" to me.

 

[blargonator]

i hate autos more than fat kids hate running <8- P anyways....yeah my brother was trying to figure out how to rev-match and he quickly gave up, DSM trannies are already on the edge...no need to give them a reason to screw up some more.

 

[MR8]

I can't imagine liking driving an auto... it's so nice to know that one pedal gives you full control over the link between the engine and the wheels. Autos feel like they're "driving themselves" to me.

...and to think of the future of automobile with all the computer-controlled "stuff", being able to drive stick will probably become a lost art. I'd say: PETITION AGAINST AUTOMATIC!!

I remember being so boggled by all the coordinations when my dad showed me how to drive a manual I thought I will never learn it, ever. Especially on the steep hills, the roll-back used to scared the crap outta me. I'll either let out the clutch too quick and stall, or give too much gas with the clutch semi-engaged. Then the nasty smell of burnt clutch fills up the cabin. That was only 2 years ago and today, I can't even imagine having to drive an auto.

 

[Sage]

My parents forced me to learn by starting from a standstill on a steep uphill -- I didn't get to do any other kind of driving until I mastered that. Thank goodness too, since it's probably the best way to learn the catching point on the clutch. After that, "regular" driving was easy.

 

[MR8]

Hah, and I thought I had it tough. My dad made me drive a couple laps in a right-hand drive, high hp car, with traffic moving on the other side (left-up/right-down) when I've only been driving LHD, in a 130hp, automatic, turdmobile in the U.S. with only a year of experience under my belt. Then of course, I met Mr. Steep Hill, and I stalled. Everything after that is history... But yeah, once you nail down the catching point, it's oh-so-easy. I feel like I can drive any car, climb any mountain, dial any phone...

 

[Jay]

My dad let me practice years before I turned 16 and could get my license. He let me practice on private property alot and then not long before I turned 16 he took me to shopping mall carparks when it was clear. I had lots of fun (all manual by the way)

 

[Duke]

Automatic transmissions are not the devil. Some are very nice - the one in my wife's TSX is great; it's almost telepathic in knowing what you want out of it. If you're driving at speed, you can even feel it downshift when you're braking for a turn. It's so good that I never bother to drive it in the 'manumatic' mode; it shifts itself well enough.

 

[Race Idiot]

Yes. The exact positioning is going to vary by car, but that's how I do it.

<Insert images of heel toe here>

So you have one side of your foot on the brake and the other on the gas. I tried this, but I still can't get a good grasp on the gas pedal. I don't know if it's because such a tiny pedal, or I have some sort of hideously disfigured foot.

Manual is terrible in a stop start traffic jam, when I used to have my escort (I don't know where they got the clutch for it, so bloody heavy) and I got stuck in a jam afterwards i'd realised that it had made me strain a muscle in my thigh. I mean the clutch on that thing, god it was terrible. Although this was after sitting in traffic for about 2/3 hours.

 

[DQuaN]

If you do a search, there is a vid somewhere of a race between 2 Lambo's, and NSX, Ferrari, Porsche and BMW M3. It has some really good heel toe action in it, if I remember correctly.

*edit* It's in This thread.

Its 31mb though.

 

[G.T]

All this clutch action sounds difficult to me, I was baffled at first but I think I'm starting to understand it. It'll be much easier when I can actually drive. So when you're changing down from 3rd gear to 2nd, when in neutral you blip the throttle to match the revvs you would get in 2nd gear then shift into 2nd, and from 2nd to 3rd, in neutral you let the revvs drop to what it would be in 3rd gear and then shift in 3rd. Is this right? Sorry if I'm still wrong.

That video is great DQuaN. The people driving the cars are very experienced. They are in racing championships (F3 ect) in Japan so they've had a lot of practice. 👍

 

[///M-Spec]

All this clutch action sounds difficult to me, I was baffled at first but I think I'm starting to understand it. It'll be much easier when I can actually drive. So when you're changing down from 3rd gear to 2nd, when in neutral you blip the throttle to match the revvs you would get in 2nd gear then shift into 2nd, and from 2nd to 3rd, in neutral you let the revvs drop to what it would be in 3rd gear and then shift in 3rd. Is this right? Sorry if I'm still wrong.

Sounds about right to me.

This thread actually motivated me to practice some clutchless shifting yestarday. Neat, but not very useful in a street car. I'd have to practice an awful lot to get as fast as I can shift with the clutch.


M

 

[PS]

I wish I had somewhere to practise driving a stick . I've seen all these racing videos, but it looks as though they just let off the gas, mash the clutch (and shift of course), and get back on the gas again. Is this only in racing under extreme pressure/intense driving?

 

[Sage]

Well, they don't "mash" the clutch, per se... it just happens so fast with race cars that it looks like mindless mashing (oh, Klos would be so proud of that alliteration). Actually, in all honesty, there isn't too much timing involved when pushing the clutch in -- most of what matters is while you're releasing it, since you have to balance the gas and clutch pedals to "match" them a bit (too much gas and you burn the clutch, not enough gas and you give the engine hell).

What's funny is that I'm sitting here trying to think of the actions I go through when shifting, but I can't do it. It becomes so natural after you've done it long enough that you can't even think about it.

 

[PS]

Well they also seem to let go of it pretty fast, I suppose that has to do with the triple plate CF clutches and advanced fuel pumps they're using then, huh?

 

[Sage]

Well, sort of, but not as much as I think you're thinking. By "balancing", don't get this picture in your head of me spending several seconds trying to balance the gas and clutch pedals. For me, the longest part of shifting is pulling my truck's long stick through the gates; the pedal movement takes less than a second.

I'm assuming nobody in your family drives a manual?

 

[PS]

Well, sort of, but not as much as I think you're thinking. By "balancing", don't get this picture in your head of me spending several seconds trying to balance the gas and clutch pedals. For me, the longest part of shifting is pulling my truck's long stick through the gates; the pedal movement takes less than a second.

I'm assuming nobody in your family drives a manual?

I don't think so...

But I just don't see how you can know what you're supposed to be shifting at when about 40% of manual cars today don't even show the tach—they show a little red dot or something when you're supposed to shift.

But I guess I won't really get it until I try it, huh?

 

[MR8]

I don't think so...

But I just don't see how you can know what you're supposed to be shifting at when about 40% of manual cars today don't even show the tach—they show a little red dot or something when you're supposed to shift.

But I guess I won't really get it until I try it, huh?

Trust me, after a while you don't even have to look at the tach anymore. Just listen to the engine sound and you'll know if the car is in its useful powerband. Hell, sometimes I drive in 1st @ 5,000rpm through those 15mph school zone instead of 2nd @ 3,450 - 3,600 just because I can. It just roars...

 

[PS]

What about "dead zone"? What's with that? I know of some cars that have to be ravved up to like 4000rpm before they even start moving...is that something to do with having a manual, or is that just the effects of a horrible torque-curve?

 

[MR8]

What about "dead zone"? What's with that? I know of some cars that have to be ravved up to like 4000rpm before they even start moving...is that something to do with having a manual, or is that just the effects of a horrible torque-curve?

If it's hard to get moving from a stop, the car probably has a heavy clutch/flywheel. At least that my experience.

If the car's moving and you need to rev it up for in order for it to drive smoothly, then you're most likely driving in the wrong (high) gear and there's no power in that curve. Maybe the car just doesn't have any power, like my first car, the Turdmobile.

 

[Sage]

But I just don't see how you can know what you're supposed to be shifting at when about 40% of manual cars today don't even show the tach—they show a little red dot or something when you're supposed to shift.

You can drive a manual in GT4 without looking at the tach, can't you?

Well, first off, I'm not sure where you pulled the 40% from, because I have not seen a single (manual) production car made today that doesn't have a proper tach – F1 and Le Mans cars don't have tachs, but every production car does. And they (drivers of F1/LeMans cars) wouldn't even need the blinking red dots... if the engines didn't rev so darn fast (normally you know when to shift by sound, but in those cars the engine sound is so intense and comes up so fast that you kinda need the light to pace yourself). But like I said, basically all production cars these days have tachs (well, I think there's a certain Kia or Hyundai that doesn't, but...). My friend's '94 F-150 doesn't have one though, and it's kinda hard since a gurgly V-8 sounds mostly the same throughout the engine speed range.

And yeah, "dead-zone" has nothing to do with a manual (it just happens to be easier to **** it up in a manual) – it simply means you're in a higher gear than you should be.

 

[VIPFREAK]

yeah so I watched my dad do it up and down in his '64 1/2 stang and well no thanks I still rather keep my tranny... it's the only one I got. His downshift without the clutch sucked ass ****... his shifting period sucked ass.

edit:

Ok ok... so I'm a visual learner. Does anyone have a video or pics of how shifting without a clutch would work??

 

[Azuremen]

Sage, my 99 Corolla doesn't have a tach and its a 5 speed. My 94 Tercel didn't have a tach either.

I toe and heel two different ways. In the Corolla, teh pedals are far enough apart that I actualy have my foot on the brake, then rotate my heel over to teh gas at down shifts. In my MR2, the pedals are close enough that I just roll the side of my foot onto the gas. I kinda have to actually, since the car stalls if it falls below 1000 RPM due to some alternator issues and a poor idle for the engine right now. That, and its running uber rich.

You do get the "feeling" for where to shift, from engine sound to how the car feels. And you learn to get use to different cars faster the more you drive. Going from my stock Corolla to my modified MR2 is very different feeling. Lots of clutch movement and a slow engagement, plus more play in the gas pedal. MR2 has a lightened fly wheel, TRD Kevlar semi racing clutch, and little gas pedal movement from the engine setup. Shifting in the MR2 requires some serious attention, as the RPMs drop very quickly due to the flywheel, and the clutch bites very rapidly, so smooth launches take some effort. I usually jump the engine up to 4,000 RPM while moving the shifter into 1st, then let the rpm fall down a bit as I engage the clutch, and have it all catch at about 3,000 RPM. For fast launches, its goto 5 grand, and then work teh clutch and gas pedals so I stay above 5 grand. Yay for no torque at the low end engines

The Corolla on the other hand is easy to drive. Much more room to play with the gas and clutch while launching, and still do it smoothly. And softer on the passengers, rather than the jolting shifts in teh MR2.

In regard to learning, I did it on the Tercel. Bought the car and had to drive it 30 miles for the first trip.. having never driven stick. I got a 5 minute crash course from my dad, and then drove to school in it. I stalled sooo many times. I had no tach to work with, but I guess that made me learn more about feeling the car. Either way, after a week I got the hang of it. Hills pestered me for about a month or two, but I never did resort to the e-brake launch that some people I know use, because they can't or don't want to move their foot quickly from the brake to gas.

Now, when I pull up to lights and stop signs, I just put the car in neutral and coast. Unless I know I'll be leaving right away, then I go through the gears. When I turn, I usually toe and heel, so I can have power if I need it. People that put the clutch in whenever they turn drive me insane... However, I ALWAYS have my foot on the brake at lights and signs, till right when I leave. Why? Bcause if some dumbass isn't paying attention, and hits me, it reduces the odds of me being shoved into the car in front of me, or worse, into cross traffic.

And with that, I'm off to bed